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tob
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posted April 07, 2009 01:01 PM |
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That's very obvious. They are completely about different things, so how in world can they even collide with each other? 
Well, for example, science says that there was a huge bang and voila, the world was born. According to the Bible, God created the world.
What if God made that huge bang and by doing that, created us all?
Actually many scientists are quite sure that the creation of the earth is pretty close to the chronological parts of the creation in the bible. I think it is hard for people to state that so many years ago without any inspiration (and not being there).
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Corribus
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posted April 08, 2009 01:43 AM |
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Actually many scientists are quite sure that the creation of the earth is pretty close to the chronological parts of the creation in the bible. I think it is hard for people to state that so many years ago without any inspiration (and not being there).
Yeah, right....
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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TheDeath
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posted April 08, 2009 02:03 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 04:45, 08 Apr 2009.
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The only thing you seem to be interested in is attacking science 
Actually, I take science as something pure. People and engineers **** it up.
When someone says "science doesn't need beliefs", of course I'm gonna argue with them.
This doesn't mean it is bad, unholy, or worse than religion (at worst it would be on par since both have beliefs from this logic). Why would I have problems with it, when I don't even have with religion (which has more beliefs)?
I have a problem with people who use it wrongly.
And that means atheists. Because atheists imply TRUTH (i.e God does not exist...) rather than UNCERTAINTY (agnostics).
And as I have explained, science CANNOT represent truth, for if it does, then it would be a religion. Remember one of science's "virtues" over religion? Yes, it changes. If it doesn't, then it's religion.
Truth cannot change.
Draw your conclusions why science cannot represent truth, by definition (this doesn't mean it is useless by far, truth doesn't equal the only thing that matters -- after all, science is just a tool, tools don't need to be perfect).
If you want truth and not with religion, go into philosophy
Therefore, the atheists' claim is based around "beliefs" as much as religion. NOTICE that this does not make them 'weaker' from an objective viewpoint that takes them all equally -- but it does make the atheist weaker because he claims he doesn't need beliefs (the religious person doesn't claim such thing). That is why there's a problem -- this 'claim'...
is that more clear than how I said previously? 
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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angelito
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posted April 08, 2009 09:07 AM |
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Truth cannot change.
How wrong Just look back in history how often truth has changed.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted April 08, 2009 09:59 AM |
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Truth cannot change.
How wrong Just look back in history how often truth has changed.
Death is speaking about the truth that we seek, not the one we currently hold. He is not speaking about truth but about Truth, the one we most likely will never know.
@Death. My point was rather that this topic has not been about God, no one is interested about it it seems. One topic to rule them all is science vs. religion.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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JollyJoker
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posted April 08, 2009 11:15 AM |
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Truth cannot change.
How wrong Just look back in history how often truth has changed.
Death is speaking about the truth that we seek, not the one we currently hold. He is not speaking about truth but about Truth, the one we most likely will never know.
@Death. My point was rather that this topic has not been about God, no one is interested about it it seems. One topic to rule them all is science vs. religion.
It's questionable whether there IS an abosnowe truth at all.
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted April 08, 2009 11:27 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 11:28, 08 Apr 2009.
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It's questionable whether there IS an abosnowe truth at all.
Of course I agree. But it doesn't really matter here, as one can't know one way or another.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Salamandre
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posted April 08, 2009 11:28 AM |
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It is much easier for the human being to believe that an external force/reality is governing its fate, than accepting the awful truth, that he is the only responsible of his own decay.
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Mytical
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posted April 08, 2009 11:59 AM |
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I will paraphrase a very smart comment made here. "Science and Religion are not meant to contridict each other"
One is meant to quantify what we can observe and know, the other is meant to try to explain what we can not know or observe (under normal conditions). Using science to try to disprove spiritual phenomena is like trying to move the ocean with a salad fork. I of course allude to real phenomena, and not some hoax by some con artist.
The lesson one should learn here is do not follow a human when seeking enlightenment. Humans can, and some will, use anything to further their own agenda. That includes any priest, rabbi, pope, or other individual that tells you that you must do things a certain way. Including myself.
On another note..I have a query. Where exactly does it say that God can see the future in any of the bible? Yes I know he knows everything, and sees all the sins..but where does it say that he knows the future? This is a sincere question. Chapter and verse if possible please.
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Message received.
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baklava
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posted April 08, 2009 12:24 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:24, 08 Apr 2009.
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Where exactly does it say that God can see the future in any of the bible?
According to my theology lessons, God, as the creator of time among other things, exists outside of it. He sees all time and all events as one, single moment; and we thus have the impression that he can "see into the future" when we have to explain it with our four-dimensional view on the world.
I don't know where it exactly says so in the Bible, though. But it's more implied than said directly.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Azagal
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posted April 08, 2009 12:27 PM |
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Isn't the answer kinda easier?
I mean... he's god. And if he's god he's defined as being omni potent. You know not just mighty but allmighty.
I think it should be a piece of cake to look into the future for a guy who created the whole freakin universe...
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Mytical
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posted April 08, 2009 12:49 PM |
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See this is the thing I am not so sure of. One of the main 'arguments' against god is that if he knew how things were going to turn out, why did he not change things. Perhaps he learns things the instant they happen, and in fact knows so much that he can make a very educated guess on what the future brings. It would explain a lot to me. Of course we might never know for SURE. Just me and my questions again. So many questions, so few answers. When you do find an answer, hundreds more take its place...
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angelito
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posted April 08, 2009 01:10 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:10, 08 Apr 2009.
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Where exactly does it say that God can see the future in any of the bible?
According to my theology lessons, God, as the creator of time among other things, exists outside of it. He sees all time and all events as one, single moment; and we thus have the impression that he can "see into the future" when we have to explain it with our four-dimensional view on the world.
I don't know where it exactly says so in the Bible, though. But it's more implied than said directly.
Those things out of theology lessons (I don't blame you baklava, but those teachers and books!) is what makes atheists and agnostics crazy.
 Have you ever tried to understand anything what is spoken when you're inbetween a crowd of 500 people who chit chat? Now imagine 6 billion people...only today...when being omni-present, you hear all 6 billion people of EVERY day in the past and the future at the same time. We have some professional mathematics here, so I guess at least one of them is able to calculate how many voices you hear at the same time when we take into consideration, the earth is only 5000 years old, and will exist 500 years more from now on.
Now tell me again, religion doesn't contradict science, and what is even more important:
What motivation has a man to write a book and state such a thing? How on earth can he even have the smallest idea of what "God" is able to do or not? And why the heck are there still people who believe those things written by any unknown guys and sold as the holy bible?
This is completely out of my 6 senses....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
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posted April 08, 2009 01:40 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 13:41, 08 Apr 2009.
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Theology can sometimes confuse me or even irritate me too, but there is a lot of things that can rationally make sense when put in the right context. Just like in any religion or philosophy. Or atheism.
And please stop putting agnostics and atheists in the same basket.
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Have you ever tried to understand anything what is spoken when you're inbetween a crowd of 500 people who chit chat? Now imagine 6 billion people...only today...when being omni-present, you hear all 6 billion people of EVERY day in the past and the future at the same time.
Have you ever tried to understand that God doesn't have the mind of a human being that just happens to see everything at the same time?
The mind of an eternal creator that exists outside of time can, I think we can all agree, function a lot different than ours does. He doesn't have eyes or ears like we do. He isn't confined into time and space. If he could create time, he knows how to manage it. If we assume that he can be omnipresent and omnipotent, why couldn't he be omni-understanding?
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What motivation has a man to write a book and state such a thing? How on earth can he even have the smallest idea of what "God" is able to do or not? And why the heck are there still people who believe those things written by any unknown guys and sold as the holy bible?
Motivation?
Well, it's my belief that the motivation of those who wrote the Bible was to reach an understanding of the world around us and try to advise people about how they could improve their lives (in the context of the age the Bible was written in), and the motivation of those who edited it was to control people.
As for what's true and what isn't... Herodotus, the father of history, was a man who claimed that there's a specific time of year when a certain northern people (presumably Slavs) turns into wolves. That was a man of science.
Sometimes, people's views are biased, sometimes they are rational, sometimes they are metaphorical; all those things were quite common in both science and philosophy of the ancient times.
And, of course, there are ideas, and every idea can be interpreted as divine guidance, or fiendish temptation of sorts. People who wrote the Bible might have indeed witnessed something inexplicable, something they could never explain. Maybe they didn't understand it right; maybe it's us who don't understand it. Maybe some "miracles" were indeed a hoax; but maybe some ideas we consider completely ordinary were an act of celestial inspiration.
But what we think truly happened is a matter of belief, of one sort or the other. And we can, of course, admit that we really don't know. Depending on that, we're theists, atheists or agnostics.
____________
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted April 08, 2009 02:55 PM |
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Have you ever tried to understand anything what is spoken when you're inbetween a crowd of 500 people who chit chat? Now imagine 6 billion people...only today...when being omni-present, you hear all 6 billion people of EVERY day in the past and the future at the same time. We have some professional mathematics here, so I guess at least one of them is able to calculate how many voices you hear at the same time when we take into consideration, the earth is only 5000 years old, and will exist 500 years more from now on.
Why do you try to perceive God as some sort of "wiser human"?
That needs ears or eyes?
That exists in time?
That can get bored?
That can handle 10^2 voices, but can't handle 10^10?
Those are human limitations. God is not a human being. Why bother?
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angelito
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posted April 08, 2009 03:01 PM |
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Have you ever tried to understand anything what is spoken when you're inbetween a crowd of 500 people who chit chat? Now imagine 6 billion people...only today...when being omni-present, you hear all 6 billion people of EVERY day in the past and the future at the same time. We have some professional mathematics here, so I guess at least one of them is able to calculate how many voices you hear at the same time when we take into consideration, the earth is only 5000 years old, and will exist 500 years more from now on.
Why do you try to perceive God as some sort of "wiser human"?
That needs ears or eyes?
That exists in time?
That can get bored?
That can handle 10^2 voices, but can't handle 10^10?
Those are human limitations. God is not a human being. Why bother?
And why do YOU try to percieve God as something else? As far as I know, even in the bible it is written (similar) "God formed Adam as a picture of himself"
So why should he give Adam ears and eyes, if he himself doesn't have those?
Think of it....
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Doomforge
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posted April 08, 2009 03:06 PM |
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Don't be picky - should it also mean we should be omnipotent as him or 1 day would be the same as 1000 years and vice versa to us (which, btw, is the part which suggests God exist outside time)? We are not an exact copy.
We are "a picture" of God in terms of immortal souls, I think
And why do I think that? To answer your question: Can a human create universe? No? Well, simple logic. God must be a superior being. Also, it would be illogical if he was "just a wise human". What you often mention - the "gaps" in logic - are created by perceiving God as "a better, wiser human".
And they go away if we picture him as something else.
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angelito
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posted April 08, 2009 03:18 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 15:19, 08 Apr 2009.
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Don't be picky - should it also mean we should be omnipotent as him or 1 day would be the same as 1000 years and vice versa to us (which, btw, is the part which suggests God exist outside time)? We are not an exact copy.
Oh...have we reached the famous "This is not to take word by word, it is just an analogy!" part again? I said picture, not COPY. So I am talking about the look, not the ability. If you bring up such things, you should stay a bit more accurate. So I ask again: Why did he gave Adam ears and eyes, if he himself doesn't have any at all? If he knows how to communicate in a different way (telepathy for example), why didn't he gave that possibility to Adam aswell?
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And why do I think that? To answer your question: Can a human create universe? No?
Wrong. It has been done already from scientist who investigate the BigBang theory. Of course in a very very small amount, but it happened. And our existing universe started pretty small too, right?
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Well, simple logic. God must be a superior being. Also, it would be illogical if he was "just a wise human". What you often mention - the "gaps" in logic - are created by perceiving God as "a better, wiser human".
Again wrong. God could also be something like a prophet, who spread his wise sayings thousands years ago. Someone like Jesus, or Mohammed, or however they are called in all those existing variations of religion. Or he was nothing else but an alien from a different planet who visited the earth thousands of years ago but had already the technology from nowadays. Who knows?
Just imagine you would visit the old egyptian country during the time the pyramids have been built, and have your cell phone, your laptop, a torch, a radio and a ak-47 with you. Don't you think you would be named "God" after a short time?
Think of it...
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tob
Hired Hero
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posted April 08, 2009 03:40 PM |
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And why do I think that? To answer your question: Can a human create universe? No?
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Wrong. It has been done already from scientist who investigate the BigBang theory. Of course in a very very small amount, but it happened. And our existing universe started pretty small too, right? Quote:
You say it yourself...
And how was it done? because of intelligence. The scientists did it. It didn't just happen out of nothing.... A lot of the explanation miss yet.
But i would like to know who and when it was done by humans so i can read about it?
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Lexxan
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posted April 08, 2009 11:02 PM |
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I really don't get this. You cannot know whether God (physically) exists, and neither if he does not exists. This discussion is somewhat pointless imo. You believe what you believe, and everyone has a different PoV. Arguing about that is just plain stupid.
As for my opinions, I believe that God exists, there where he's believed to be. Whether he physically exists is irrelevant. God will exists as long as there will be people to believe in Him. Then he DOES exist, in the Believer's heart.
A scientific truth may not be achieved in this debate. Only a spiritual will.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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