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Elodin
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posted July 24, 2009 02:27 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 02:29, 24 Jul 2009.
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@JJ
Option 2:
I find it strange that you call having a requirement to enter heaven a scam. I would expect such a requirement. God is not obligated to allow someone who has spent his whole life raping and murdering into his heaven.
Heaven is not a place the you have a "right" to enter.
When you enter a movie theater you must first have a ticket. You purchase your ticket in faith that the movie you want to see is being shown at the advertised time. If you do not purchase the ticket you will remain outside the movie theater and be denied entry. The scam would be trying to sneak in without a ticket.
God is a God of love and mercy. God is a God of holiness and justice. It may be that such a person as the rapist above is a powerful man or a cunning man and that enables him to prey on people his whole life. Yet when he stands before the Judge of the all he will face the music. Now, I'm sure the rapist wishes he could pull a scam and enter those pearly gates.
You seem to have a misunderstanding of faith.. You don't have saving faith because somebody told you to have faith. Faith begins with a personal revelation from God. In a specific moment in time you know the reality of Christ. You know that the words spoken are true if you were listening to a preacher or reading the Bible for example or maybe from someone sharing the gospel with you. You know. And then you chose to act on the knowledge or to not act on it. The more you act on light you receive the more light you are given. When you refuse to act on light the light you were given begins to diminish until it eventually fades away.
I can't say "JJ, have faith". And you just say, "OK" and boom, you suddenly have faith without a revelation. God woos, draws, attempts to bring each person into repentance using different methods. But one who does not seek is unlikely to find. One who has closed his ears will not hear.
Likewise, you don't seem to understand repentance. True repentance comes about when you "see yourself in the mirror" and know in your heart that you are not who you should be and you are willing to change. The reason you see yourself is because of some bit of revelation you received. It could have been through the words of a preacher. You could have just been reflecting on your life. But when God moves you respond and resolve to change your ways.
One of the many problems with the atheistic world view is it denies that a human being has an actual personal existence and intrinsic worth. He is merely a collection of chemical reactions. He is merely dancing to his DNA. There is no good. There is no evil. There is no justice. There is no injustice. Right and wrong can have no objective meaning. The atheist must borrow these concepts from theism to complain about the supposed moral outrage of God not allowing everyone into heaven.
Oh, you assume people in heaven don't agree with God on the fate of unbelievers. I disagree. People in heaven are people who trust God and agree with God. They are people who know there is objective morality. An actual (not subjective) right and an actual wrong. That justice and injustice are realities. The imperfect believer is perfected when he sees his God face to face. We will have no disagreements. We will be in perfect unity. The unity of the Spirit.
Your understanding of "eternal life" is also short of the Christian meaning. Eternal life is not just length of life for a believer. Eternal life is quality of life. An abundant life. A deep, full, rich existence that has no end. That eternal life for a believer begins for the believer when he begins his walk with God here in the age that now is. A believer living in poverty can still have an abundant life.
The below refers to your request for elaboration on my answer to the question of fanatics who claim to act in the name of Christ.
First, whatever do you mean by using force to save the soul of someone? That is impossible. The gospel can only be preached and received. No one can force anyone to believe. You can't torture someone to make them have faith or to repent. No one would ever torture anyone else in a zeal for Christ Such things are totally against the teachings of Christ.
The duty of the Christian to unbelievers is basically to love, to preach, to pray for and to do good to.
I thought I was clear. Read the verses I quoted. They say if you are living a sinful life you are essentially living as if you are your own God and you are an enemy of Christ, not a Christian.
I deny that any Christian hates or murders because the Bible says otherwise.
Quote:
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And of course there are false "Christian" leaders. They are know by their teachings and their deeds. If their teachings are false, like God hates **** then they are false. Christ taught to love, pray for, and do good to even your enemies. Some of the false prophets know they are false. Some are deceived and think they are Christians.
Quote:
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
False leaders are as much the enemies of Christ as false believers who live in sin. Both bring reproach on the name of Christ. Even though Christ taught things that they are living exactly opposite to people blame Christianity for the actions of the false brethren.
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 02:31 AM |
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@JJ: this isn't a "deal". You have to FEEL bad for your sins, not just stay away from them because of the "destination" you'll end up with, because you'll still end up there, since you WILL sin (everyone sins, including me btw, I would place a bet with everything I have on it  ). The important thing is to WANT to stay away from them as much as possible (and feel bad about them) so you can repent in a honest and meaningful manner.
exactly like a child would learn how to behave by feeling bad when doing something wrong, NOT by getting "grounded" or the fear that daddy is gonna spank him good.
It's not a "deal" and I don't like the way you put it.
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DagothGares
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posted July 24, 2009 02:43 AM |
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Quote:
exactly like a child would learn how to behave by feeling bad when doing something wrong, NOT by getting "grounded" or the fear that daddy is gonna spank him good.
How very calvinist of you...
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 02:51 AM |
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Well not exactly, my point was that a kid who likes to do bad stuff is not gonna change his attitude much by aggressive punishment from parents -- on the contrary it might fuel him more deep inside even though he can't do it as openly as before.
Kinda like the difference between a therapy and a prison, if you get what I mean...
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Corribus
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posted July 24, 2009 03:56 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 04:01, 24 Jul 2009.
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@Elodin
Quote:
One of the many problems with the atheistic world view is it denies that a human being has an actual personal existence and intrinsic worth. He is merely a collection of chemical reactions. He is merely dancing to his DNA. There is no good. There is no evil. There is no justice. There is no injustice. Right and wrong can have no objective meaning. The atheist must borrow these concepts from theism to complain about the supposed moral outrage of God not allowing everyone into heaven.
You know, Elodin, I'm sort of breaking my own personal rule here by replying to you - call it acknowledgment of your recent efforts to improve your posting style - but for someone who complains almost constantly about other people misrepresenting or misunderstanding what you (or Christians generally) believe in, you certainly can engage in a lot of misrepresentation yourself.
Your characterisation of atheism has been wrong, perpetually. It's also been offensive. You state pretty clearly above that a human being who doesn't believe in god has no intrinsic worth. Well excuse me, but I'm sure if I said Christians are worthless, you'd take a fair bit of umbrage at that remark, no?
You go on to further write that atheists can't believe in justice or good, or right and wrong. Well excuse me, but notions of right and wrong existed before Christianity ever did, and they exist in cultures today that have no Christian influence at all. I don't "borrow" my morality from you, and to imply that every person owes their concepts of right and wrong to your religion is as arrogant as it is discourteous.
You erroneously imply - constantly - that atheistic belief systems cannot be spiritual. Well excuse me, but this is an undeniably false characterization. Are you aware that many Buddhist sects are classified as atheistic? Just because a person doesn't believe in YOUR GOD doesn't mean he can't believe in a soul, or a spirit, or the supernatural. You paint atheists with horribly broad strokes, my friend.
You demand that people do not falsely characterize your beliefs. When they do, you assume they are only out to cast aspersions at your faith, and you waste no time in calling hellfire down upon them for these perceived transgressions. And yet at the same time, you do not take the time to understand the beliefs of those you impugn. If you are going to demand respect for what you believe, I think it's only fair that you respect what other people believe, and you can't do that if you have no understanding of what they believe, and have no apparent willingness to understand.
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DagothGares
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posted July 24, 2009 04:01 AM |
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TheDeath, saying you go to heaven for being a good person, rather than just doing good for the sake of going to heaven is calvinist. Calvin (Calvijn in Dutch) said that people who repent without feeling any sorry go to hell anyway. Heaven is more a judge of character about who you really are than what you did (of course, one thing affects the other)
And I think elodin is mixing up atheist with naturalist.
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Elodin
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posted July 24, 2009 04:26 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 04:51, 24 Jul 2009.
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@Corribus
No, I DID NOT say an atheist has no intrinsic worth. Below is exactly what I said. Pardon the quote.
Quote:
One of the many problems with the atheistic world view is it denies that a human being has an actual personal existence and intrinsic worth.
I hardly see how that is more offensive than saying religion is a crutch or no longer needed or that all beliefs are unreasonable.
Oh, you have said some highly offensive things about religion and religious people, perhaps unknowingly to you. Please don't get offended when others critique atheism.
And I did not say an individual atheist can't believe in good or evil, justice or injustice. I said those ideas don't fit an atheistic world view and neither does the idea of the intrinsic worth of a person. By that I mean there no basis in atheism for saying something is objectively moral or immoral. If we are just dancing to our DNA (as Dawkins says) nothing can be called good or evil. If we are just a random group of chemicals reacting then a human has no worth.
As I said in the relevence of religion thread an atheist can be a moral person. Please read my posts in that thread.
Oh, your claim that I "[called down] hellfire down upon them for these perceived transgressions" is patently false. I have not been asking God to destroy anyone or accusing anyone of any transgrression.
Please don't get offended when others differ from a world view that is not their own. You certianly express your veiw of religion freely.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted July 24, 2009 04:55 AM |
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I agree with Corribus on the morality point, that right/wrong/justice existed before Christianity.
An interesting thought experiment (that I have posted in this thread before probably like 1000 pages ago so apologies if you've read it) is this, Elodin:
And the Lord spake unto the philosopher, 'I am the Lord thy God, and I am the source of all that is good. Why does thy secular moral philosophy ignore me?
And the philosopher spake unto the Lord, 'To answer I must first ask you some questions. You command us to do what is good. But is it good because you command it, or do you command it because it is good?'
'Ur,' said the Lord. 'It's good because I command it?'
'The wrong answer, surely, your mightiness! If the good is only good because you say it is so, then you could, if you wished, make it so that torturing infants as good. But that would be absurd, wouldn't it?'
'Of course!' replieth the Lord. 'I tested thee and thou hast made me pleased. What was the other choice again?'
'You chose what is good because it is good. But that shows quite clearly that goodness does not depend on you at all. So we don't need to study God to study the good.'
'Even so,' spake the Lord, 'you've got to admit I've written some pretty good textbooks on the subject...'
This segment is from the book 'The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten', however the question dates backed to Euthyphro by Plato (380 BCE), and demonstrates that a godless morality is not an oxymoron.
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John says to live above hell.
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Corribus
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posted July 24, 2009 05:06 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 05:28, 24 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
One of the many problems with the atheistic world view is it denies that a human being has an actual personal existence and intrinsic worth.
Are we reading the same sentence? A problem with the atheistic view is that it denies a person has intrinsic worth. Seems pretty clear that you are suggesting that someone who believes in no God cannot at the same time believe that any human has any intrinsic worth. That is, that atheists believe humans are worthless. I don't really see any other interpretation of what you wrote. Beyond that, I don't know exactly what you mean by "personal existence", but I'm pretty sure I believe that I have a personal existence, and I'm also pretty sure I believe I have an intrinsic worth. And I believe in no God. So, I'm pretty much an exception to your silly little rule, aren't I?
In any case, I see that further violations of my own silly little rule are clearly unjustified, so... carry on then.
@TA
I like that passage. I shall have to remember it.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 24, 2009 08:28 AM |
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Quote:
@JJ: this isn't a "deal". You have to FEEL bad for your sins, not just stay away from them because of the "destination" you'll end up with, because you'll still end up there, since you WILL sin (everyone sins, including me btw, I would place a bet with everything I have on it ).
It's not a "deal" and I don't like the way you put it.
Take the hypothetical gay. Doesn't feel much about girls. Finds boys attractive. Checks around for himself, discovers he's gay. Lives a normal single life with a couple of changing friends. Finds his dream guy with 30, they move in together, foral union, adopt 2 children. Raise the children, get old, die.
He lived a life of sin... but what would this guy had to feel bad for? The only wrong thing he did was disobeying god's comannds which is called "sin". Sin is sin because god says it is.
Elodin may like it that only believers in god will get admittance to heaven and only repentant sinners, but I do NOT, and clearly it's my right to NOT like it, although it's a sin to doubt god's commands.
Which means, I could just as well be gay, because I never ever in my life I won't repent doubting the wisdom of this, because I simply don't feel bad about it. On the contrary.
I'd feel bad about imagining a bunch of oh so pure-spirited perfected worshippers of an oh so good god who don't get their asses up and do something to save their fellow people - and that might not be just any people, but parents, children, sisters, brothers, friends, wifes, husbands - from eternal damnation. THAT is what I would feel bad about.
And I can't help it if you don't like the way I put it, because it IS a deal. The deal is, that I believe something I have no idea about what actually is expecting me, and a lot of WHAT I know I don't like.
For MY understanding of morals, a god who would deliver someone into eternal damnation because that someone was for whatever the reason unable to believe in him, was immoral. Am I supposed to applaud when - as a spirit - I watch the millions being judged guilty? "You didn'zt believe in me - down. Didn't believe in me - down..." Or will I not be bothered with that in heaven?
Whether god has the right to do so isn't the question and the point. I would not obey such a god because this god has no heart. I wouldn't worship such a god because in this case I'd worship only his power, but not his superiority.
And that is the problem: Why would anyone assume that a being that does such things would love humans? Why? He cannot love them, if he sents them to hell, that is very obviously very much impossible. So there is something decidely WRONG with this deal. Something doesn't add up.
Don't you all see the pettiness of this concept? Imagine eternal life; no pains; nothing bad or evil; all people in heaven pure. But they WERE not pure, once they were sinners - they repented, though. Now, since justice is such an issue, let's take one of those who have suffered great injustice in life. For simplicity's sake let's take the standard example: a mother, died in a concentration camp, as the last of husband, two children and her. She did nothing wrong, so it get's up into heaven. However, the injustice bothers her of course. Can she be pure with that feeling? Now, there are two options here:
1) The feeling vanishes - she's in heaven, everything is fine. Great.
2) The feeling is still there - but there are looking glasses everywhere which show the part of hell where the guilty ones for it suffer for all eternity. There, whenever she feels bad about it, she can take a look and relish final justice.
3) The feeling vanishes - but would come back should she "meet" any of the tormentors in heaven. That is impossible, because it would very well be possible: a tormentor may have repented: having escaped the chaos, taken up a new identity and lived incognito somewhere far away, repenting dearly and doing good things for the rest of his life.
So EITHER, if you are in heaven, faced with the beauty of eternity, all bad feelings about injustice vanish - but in that case it's not really necessary to let the guilty ones suffer, isn't it? At least not eternally.
OR the bad feelings do NOT vanish - and in that case it might help the wronged to watch their tormentors suffer, but that makes sense only when it helps them come over their bad feelings, and if the last one of those that has been wronged, has overcome all bad feelings - wouldn't that be the time when the guilty part had done enough time suffering for his deeds?
If the for humans not really imanigable concept of ETERNITY and ETERNAL PARADISE is unimaginably benign and merciful, then the concept of eternal damnation and a place like hell is just unimanigably cruel.
And I don't eben mentioned the fact that if you can wath the damned suffer it might just be possible to watch your damned son, daughter, wife, mother... for all eternity...
Yeah, I guess that sounds rather tempting.
"Welcome in heaven. Congratulations for making it."
"Great. I knew, there WAS a heaven. I really have to chat with my mom... you know, she died so surprisingly and there is so much I'd have liked her to tell... So can I speak with her?"
"Unfortunately that won't be possible, sorry."
"Why, what's the matter? Is she... alright?"
"I have to inform you that we couldn't admit her."
"That... must be a mistake... no, they make no mistakes here. Why? What was the problem? She never did anything wrong, didn't she?"
"There was something she didn't tell you. She had an abortion."
"She had... what? How could she?"
"It seems, once, when you already had left home, her husband - your father - had drunk too much and forced her to have sex with her, even though she begged him not to, because she knew what the result might be, and when she got indeed pregnant she made an abortion. Said, she felt sorry for the unborn child and all, but the way it had come to pass she couldn't love it since it would always remind her and she was too old anyway. Said, she'd do the same again. She'd be sorry for the life undone, but she'd do it again. Only thing she repented was not slamming her husband into the head when he forced her. She didn't repent her grave sin, in her heart, not at all."
"Dad did... does that mean he's in hell either?"
"Why, no! Fortunately he repented what he did. Deeply. Never got drunk in his life again after that. When he heard about the abortion he was very sad. Said he would have liked another child."
"So... mom will burn in hell for that?"
"No, it's not her only sin. After the abortion she betrayed your father with another woman. She didn't repent that either. Said why would she repent something that involved so much love and tenderness. Very unrepentant, your mom."
"Ah, yes. In that case she got what she deserves. Eternity here I come."
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 05:03 PM |
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Quote:
Take the hypothetical gay. Doesn't feel much about girls. Finds boys attractive. Checks around for himself, discovers he's gay. Lives a normal single life with a couple of changing friends. Finds his dream guy with 30, they move in together, foral union, adopt 2 children. Raise the children, get old, die.
He lived a life of sin... but what would this guy had to feel bad for? The only wrong thing he did was disobeying god's comannds which is called "sin". Sin is sin because god says it is.
"because god says it is" is kinda hypocritical, after all, the reason you do NOT see it "bad" is "because you say it is" or "because others say it is". Which is the same thing. Of course I can't answer it, I'm not God, and I don't know his thoughts, but I can ask YOU why you think it's not a sin? Because you say so? Because others say so? Because you FEEL so?
Why not ask God how He feels?
I'm not condemning gays, I'm only saying these kind of "why" do not have an answer because it would be like asking me why the chicken crossed the read. I dunno, ask the chicken.
(I think gays can repent like everyone else of course)
Quote:
Whether god has the right to do so isn't the question and the point. I would not obey such a god because this god has no heart. I wouldn't worship such a god because in this case I'd worship only his power, but not his superiority.
How do you know he has no heart? Do you have a heart?
JJ, let's make it clear from "faith" or "belief" though. God doesn't want sheep that follow him "as a business". Heaven and Hell aren't "a business" where you take the one in which YOU profit. Period.
All I see in your posts are because you seek the "profitable end". This won't get God's sympathy. It is like having a friend that only stays with you because you pay him. Now how much of a friend is this anyway?
God doesn't accept fake friends in Heaven, it's what makes it pure and blissful. Otherwise, it would turn into the misery that is on Earth.
Let me use more laymen terms. Heaven is like a "non-sin-only club". As you know clubs do not autoMAGICALLY make you happy. It is the stuff that they are COMPOSED of, in short, the "no sins" for Heaven, that makes it blissful.
Quote:
And that is the problem: Why would anyone assume that a being that does such things would love humans? Why? He cannot love them, if he sents them to hell, that is very obviously very much impossible. So there is something decidely WRONG with this deal. Something doesn't add up.
Because they turn away from God.
If you don't want God so much, He'll fulfill your wishes, so He still loves you, after all he gives you what you want: absence of God, since you hate him so much. That is Hell.
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angelito
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posted July 24, 2009 05:42 PM |
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Quote:
It is like having a friend that only stays with you because you pay him. Now how much of a friend is this anyway?
And if this friend would ask me to kill my son and my wife just to show him how much a good friend I am to him? How much of a friend would HE then be?
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 06:30 PM |
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I don't follow what you're saying.
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Salamandre
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posted July 24, 2009 06:36 PM |
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 06:41 PM |
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If I remember that story, God didn't WANT to sacrifice his son, and he didn't.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 24, 2009 07:50 PM |
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@ Death, that's a pretty lame post of you - the points you did not address are telling a lot here.
You are completely missing the point. Ask Elodin how sin is defined, if you don't believe me. It is defined as disobeying god. It's not MY definition. It's interesting that you find that hypocritical.
Anyway, consequently you are not repenting what you DID - you are repenting DISOBEYING GOD, first band foremost. Now, if you live a happy life, never ever got a problem with the law, never ever hurt someone - why would you repent what made you happy and hurt no one? Makes no sense. So even if you WOULD repent disobeying god, you wouldn't be sorry, which somehow negates the purpose.
Quote:
Quote:
Whether god has the right to do so isn't the question and the point. I would not obey such a god because this god has no heart. I wouldn't worship such a god because in this case I'd worship only his power, but not his superiority.
How do you know he has no heart? Do you have a heart?
JJ, let's make it clear from "faith" or "belief" though. God doesn't want sheep that follow him "as a business". Heaven and Hell aren't "a business" where you take the one in which YOU profit. Period.
This shows as well that you didn't understand my point. I'm fully prepared NOT to profit, don't you see that? I don't WANT to profit under these conditions. If THAT's the deal, I pass on it - I've said that. Which makes the rest of your post rather unnecessary. However:
Quote:
God doesn't accept fake friends in Heaven, it's what makes it pure and blissful. Otherwise, it would turn into the misery that is on Earth.
Let me use more laymen terms. Heaven is like a "non-sin-only club". As you know clubs do not autoMAGICALLY make you happy. It is the stuff that they are COMPOSED of, in short, the "no sins" for Heaven, that makes it blissful.
I remind you again of the DEFINITION of SIN: DISOBEYANCE OF GOD. Make the conclusion yourself.
Quote:
Quote:
And that is the problem: Why would anyone assume that a being that does such things would love humans? Why? He cannot love them, if he sents them to hell, that is very obviously very much impossible. So there is something decidely WRONG with this deal. Something doesn't add up.
Because they turn away from God.
If you don't want God so much, He'll fulfill your wishes, so He still loves you, after all he gives you what you want: absence of God, since you hate him so much. That is Hell.
And you finish with pure cynism. No loving parent will condemn their children to eternal hell for disobeying. And I'm inclined to say PERIOD as well.
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 08:13 PM |
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Quote:
You are completely missing the point. Ask Elodin how sin is defined, if you don't believe me. It is defined as disobeying god. It's not MY definition. It's interesting that you find that hypocritical.
Anyway, consequently you are not repenting what you DID - you are repenting DISOBEYING GOD, first band foremost. Now, if you live a happy life, never ever got a problem with the law, never ever hurt someone - why would you repent what made you happy and hurt no one? Makes no sense. So even if you WOULD repent disobeying god, you wouldn't be sorry, which somehow negates the purpose.
Because Heaven is like God's house. He doesn't like sins. Surely you wouldn't FORCE the owner of the house to take you in, or say he is not loving? After all, he does allow you, if you repent. His house is not supposed to be of sin. There is already a MISERABLE house with that, it's called the Earth (our world).
The alternative is the neighbor's house. Hell.
Heaven wouldn't be what it is if sinners were in. It would be as miserable as the current lives we have.
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I remind you again of the DEFINITION of SIN: DISOBEYANCE OF GOD. Make the conclusion yourself.
The only punishment here is that you are away from God.
You're acting like a kid who disobeys his parents. You know what happens? The parents kick him out of the house. The kid doesn't want his parents, he finally gets his wish fulfilled.
THAT's the punishment. That's why you end up in Hell, because you said "God, **** you and your stupid sins. I don't want to see you ever again", and he does what you ask.
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And you finish with pure cynism. No loving parent will condemn their children to eternal hell for disobeying. And I'm inclined to say PERIOD as well.
No, now I agree with Elodin here, that you advocate brainwashing and forcing "in the name of loving parent" (which is subjective), or what YOU consider loving -- the thing is that you force "the children" for something because you THINK that it's a "loving decision". The loving decision is to give them what they ask for. If they don't want you, you will fulfill that wish. Hence you spit on God, you won't see him or his house again.
If your kid doesn't want you and spits on your face, you don't keep him in your house, after all he kinda doesn't like you. Instead, you kick him out, and never see him again, as per his wishes.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 24, 2009 08:35 PM |
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Death, the pronlem here is, that the options are pretty limited. It's more like Dad owns the town and if YOU don't do what HE says, he isn't just showing you the door and you are free to do what you like - he is delivering you into the hands of a maniacal torturer. It has nothing to do with fulfilling wishes.
And it has nothing to do with "being without god". It's either being with god or being with the devil. It's either heaven or hell. Nor do I or sinners spit into god's face. It's just that I need a good reason if I'm supposed to obey commands. I'm not the YESSIR type. If god wants little robots he might have created them, and if he didn't want robots - because he otherwise would have created them - he should be prepared to show some tolerance.
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 08:46 PM |
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He has a lot of tolerance. And of course the "spit in your face" was meant as a metaphor speaking in general (the worst extreme case of course, for someone who does believe in God but doesn't want Him). There are more "interpretations" here (not mine, but Doomforge's, he says he's a protestant) where he said that Hell is just the absence of God and eternal life -- i.e eternal death. Which is similar in concept: absence of God.
I mean a parent does offer guidance (God does), a parent does forgive his kids if they are honest, a parent does help the kids to a certain extent: but if they keep on their "disobeyance" as you put it and have no sign of being sorry at all, and obviously don't want the parents and their "stupid rules", then there's a point at which the parents will just leave them off for themselves.
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angelito
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posted July 24, 2009 08:49 PM |
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If I remember that story, God didn't WANT to sacrifice his son, and he didn't.
But FIRST he gave him the order to do so! And THAT's the point.
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