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mvassilev
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posted July 25, 2009 10:12 PM |
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You would rather be non-existent than in torment?
That's a no-brainer.
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TheDeath
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posted July 25, 2009 10:56 PM |
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You would rather be non-existent than in torment?
That's a no-brainer.
Not quite. Ask Joonas.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 26, 2009 08:02 AM |
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It's a very simple thing, actually. If I qualify for your "club", but don't want to be part of it, for example because I don't like it, for example because I'd miss a couple of others and coulnd't really relish it, why am I punished with eternal suffering?
If I never heard from your club and therefore didn't believe in its existance, but would qualify otherwise, why am I pusnished with eternal suffering?
God seems to think I deserve it, even tough in one case I just dare to have an opinion and in the other I had the misfortune not to know about him.
If that's god's justice, I can do without it. And that's my last word on it.
Edit: A last clarification seems in order. I believe that the idea of a single creator-god how the existing monotheistic religions describe him, would be an insult for a hypthetically really existing creator-god. To assume such a being would be so... petty, may have had its merits in earlier times, but now? It's not that difficult to find better concepts for "justice" than that, but it looks like that wouldn't be as obvious as I thought it was, so a discussion of that will be futile as well.
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TheDeath
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posted July 26, 2009 04:02 PM |
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Nah I think atheists, if they are honest about it, can go to Heaven, since they can accept Jesus easily if they also feel bad about sins or feel bad afterwards they "look at the big picture" (don't ask me what that is, I have no idea since I'm not God). The point is that it is difficult to accept Jesus as savior when you don't agree with his viewpoints or are close to it. The further from that you are, the more you'll have to change, and the more difficult if not outright impossible. That's why we should do it "in this life" but I don't think there's a problem otherwise, just more difficult.
And the reason you're being punished with eternal suffering is because you didn't accept God, or others don't want to hear of him etc... so you're on your own. It would be like kinda living on the Sun in a magical house, but you not wanting to be in the parent's house so you end up in the burning Sun (and the parent won't help you of course since you don't want him with his "stupid views" or whatever  ).
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JollyJoker
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posted July 26, 2009 08:00 PM |
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Death, I start to think you are really out of your mind. You discuss with me about the Christian god and invent all kinds of things. You dare to come up with your own very personal belief and try to sell that as official Christian religion? You ARE out of your mind.
Let me tell you AGAIN, that everything "known" about the Christian god stands in the Bible. And the Bible says without any doubt:
To qualify for your "club" you have to believe in Jesus. There's no "but" attached. Either you do or you do not. If you nver heard about him, you do NOT. If you were raised in another region having another religion, you do NOT. Period. Ask Elodin.
And your explanations for why you end in hell are miserably pityful.
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Elodin
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posted July 26, 2009 08:20 PM |
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I believe that the idea of a single creator-god how the existing monotheistic religions describe him, would be an insult for a hypthetically really existing creator-god. To assume such a being would be so... petty, may have had its merits in earlier times, but now? It's not that difficult to find better concepts for "justice" than that, but it looks like that wouldn't be as obvious as I thought it was, so a discussion of that will be futile as well.
Ah, well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Me, I don't see how it is a better concept of justice to allow unrepentant child molesters and murderers to roam the streets of heaven. Sorry, I see no justice in that.
My God loves everyone and is willing to show mercy to the repentant. But he is not drooling old demented Grampa sitting in a wheelchair laughing at everybody's bad behavior. "Oh, you just raped a little boy and tortured him to death, how cute. Let me add a room to your heavenly mansion..." No, I don't think so.
Jesus is both God and man. He is very qualified to judge us. He has "walked a mile and beyond in our shoes."
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TheDeath
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posted July 26, 2009 09:21 PM |
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Death, I start to think you are really out of your mind. You discuss with me about the Christian god and invent all kinds of things. You dare to come up with your own very personal belief and try to sell that as official Christian religion? You ARE out of your mind.
The only one out of his mind is you here.
You know, if you want to set God an example of what a loving person should be, how about you let all criminals in jail walk free in society and abolish all prisons? Also remove all laws, they're worthless anyway, it just punishes what a loving person should accept right?
I mean, let them all in "heaven" (which is this society). How do you think that a perfect society is kept crime free, even with possible criminals? By relocating the criminals out of it.
And you can be sure that "real" relocation means that they can get NOTHING from this society. Kinda like putting them on separate lonely islands or something.
That's what would make this "society" free of crime: absence of criminals. That's what makes Heaven blissful: absence of sin. If they want out (implicitly by breaking the rules), they will not be able to benefit from the very things that they corrupt (you can't just demand stuff from a society while you break the rules of said society).
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Let me tell you AGAIN, that everything "known" about the Christian god stands in the Bible. And the Bible says without any doubt:
To qualify for your "club" you have to believe in Jesus. There's no "but" attached. Either you do or you do not. If you nver heard about him, you do NOT. If you were raised in another region having another religion, you do NOT. Period. Ask Elodin.
And your explanations for why you end in hell are miserably pityful.
That doesn't mean you won't be able to accept him later on.
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baklava
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posted July 27, 2009 12:15 AM |
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Let me tell you AGAIN, that everything "known" about the Christian god stands in the Bible. And the Bible says without any doubt:
To qualify for your "club" you have to believe in Jesus. There's no "but" attached. Either you do or you do not. If you nver heard about him, you do NOT. If you were raised in another region having another religion, you do NOT. Period.
According to my theology lessons, that's not true.
I don't know how it works in Catholicism and Western Christianity but over here it's generally accepted even by the Church that you will be given a chance if you never heard of Jesus. If you did, and you refused him, that can be a bit of a problem, but it doesn't just automatically shove you to hell if you never had a chance to find Christ. Not even the Church says it's that simple. Well, the Eastern Church at least.
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taplo
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posted July 27, 2009 12:38 AM |
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According to my theology lessons, that's not true.
I don't know how it works in Catholicism and Western Christianity but over here it's generally accepted even by the Church that you will be given a chance if you never heard of Jesus. If you did, and you refused him, that can be a bit of a problem, but it doesn't just automatically shove you to hell if you never had a chance to find Christ. Not even the Church says it's that simple. Well, the Eastern Church at least.
But wouldn't that mean that by spreading the word of God you reduce others' chance to get into heaven? I mean if you have never heard about something you cannot refuse it willingly...
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TheDeath
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posted July 27, 2009 12:51 AM |
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If you disagree a lot with Christ, whether you met him or not, that counts as implicitly refusing him. Just think, it would be very hard for such person to change.
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taplo
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posted July 27, 2009 01:09 AM |
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If you disagree a lot with Christ, whether you met him or not, that counts as implicitly refusing him. Just think, it would be very hard for such person to change.
It certainly makes it harder to commit the first 4 of the 10 commandments tho.
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TheDeath
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posted July 27, 2009 01:13 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 01:14, 27 Jul 2009.
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Why so? Of course I never said you would be a 100% believer, not even the most religious (ok maybe few exceptions) are non-sinners. Those are easy for you to change, usually. (not that hard I mean to change yourself)
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taplo
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posted July 27, 2009 01:21 AM |
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Why so? Of course I never said you would be a 100% believer, not even the most religious (ok maybe few exceptions) are non-sinners. Those are easy for you to change, usually. (not that hard I mean to change yourself)
For me they seem to be the most related to God, i mean the rest aren't directly linked to religion (in my views anyway), but the first 4 would really lose the context without God.
And i never said it would mean salvation for everybody if there was no organized religion, i used 'reduce'  .
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baklava
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posted July 27, 2009 01:30 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 01:30, 27 Jul 2009.
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@taplo
Not hearing anything about Christ is not an automatic one way ticket to Heaven. Doesn't work that way. Just like it's not the best idea to kill babies in order to make sure they get to heaven before they get a chance to sin.
I'll have to ask the theology teacher further when the next school year starts though. Not sure if she likes most of my questions but I guess she got used to it.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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taplo
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posted July 27, 2009 01:42 AM |
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Edited by taplo at 01:46, 27 Jul 2009.
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@taplo
Not hearing anything about Christ is not an automatic one way ticket to Heaven.
Seems like it was a mistake to remove that instant before salvation before posting the reply, would have been more clear edit: i'm referring to my post above
But again, i never said it is a one way ticket to heaven (neither do i think), but i asked a question actually
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JollyJoker
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posted July 27, 2009 06:59 AM |
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You people should read the bible for a change instead of speculating. Ask Elodin, if you don't want to read it.
There is no way into heaven outside of Jesus Christ and you must repent BEFORE you die. You can of course wish it would be different and even believe that it's different, but then you start to redress and make up the things you believe, and then suddenly god becomes a different god who does eeverything that conveniently fits, but a convenient god somewhere outside of what the Bible said is a completely different god. You can't just start to declare things unvalid or figurative arbitrarily.
It sounds all very nice and convenient to talk about "unrepentant child molesters and serial killers", but IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. We are talking about unrepentant gays, abortionists and unrepentant (of course) unbelievers here. Because the "no-sin" club isn't the "good-persons" club, but the "obey-god" club.
Moreover you may think about what difference it makes for the victims of a mass murderer, whether the murderer dies as a repenting believing Christian (making it into heaven) or not (ending up in hell). You might, and I repeat that as well, think about the justice of a mass murderer having had the good fortune never to get caught, then become a honest repenting believer, making the cut, while his last victim, let's say the father of a killed family may have dies cursing god's name after having seen his wife and children massacred and tortured, will go to hell (and imagine what his family must think of that).
If you find that just, fine, I don't. I wouldn't find it just with humans, and I finf it much less just with god.
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Elodin
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posted July 27, 2009 09:26 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 09:28, 27 Jul 2009.
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@ JJ
So replace "unrepentant child molester" with unrepentant sinner. Why do you think God is obligated to let anyone who refuses to repent into heaven? The fact is no one has any excuse for any sin. If one choses not to repent he has only himself to blame.
It is really wierd that you complain about God recieving people who truly repent of thier sins and complain about God not receiving unrepentant sinners.
The repentant don't get justice. We get mercy. In Christ our sins can be washed away and we will not be judged for those sins. That is kind of the whole point of the cross.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 27, 2009 10:19 AM |
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That's not the point. The point is, that you either find mercy before god OR end up tortured for all eternity. You see, it's the (sole) alternative that is a bit appalling.
It would seem then, that all humans are damned to hell BY DEFAULT - except those who find mercy with god, the saved ones, so-to-speak:
This would in fact mean, that A&E screwed things up eternally, delivering all of humanity into satan's hand except those who can pull themselves out by the lifeline of trusting in Jesus and repenting all sins. It would mean that there wasn't any judgement at all anymore: god just decided to throw out a lifeline two millennia ago and be done with it - they who are able to pick it will save themselves, the rest goes down.
However, in that case it's god who decided to damn all humans to eternal damnation by default because of A&E's doings. Why make all future generations suffer for what the original parents did?
Or: Why are people are by default punished with eternal damnation for something that happened in ancient times? Why must we suffer for things others screwed up? Makes no sense to me.
Another consequence: if it's GOD'S MERCY that saves us - as opposed to we working to make up for the past, EARNING us a place in heaven - then it's obvious, that we do not DESERVE or EARN hell as a fate either, but it's GOD'S WRATH that places us there by default. See that? If it's not a question of earning and deserving salvation, but it's god's mercy, then it cannot be a question of earning and deserving damnation either.
While that would explain the obvious injustices (it's not a question of justice anymore, but a question of who is pious or devout enough to pick the line with everything that is necessary to do it), it's still unacceptable: it would mean that god isn't accepting his creation as he made it, but only those out of it who can bring themself back into shape and unconditionally obey him. And here we are nack again at the initial problem - if he wanted robots he might have created some in the first place. He didn't, though, which means he did NOT want robots.
And now think about this paradoxon: You as a parent: can you really damn all your children into damnation BY DEFAULT, safe only those from this fate who obey unconditionally AND expect them NOT to be robots at that point? You may have free will FORMALLY, but in practise, there can some nothing good from EXERTING IT. The way to go is OBEYING.
EDIT: Let me edit this with a question. If god didn't want robots or mindlessly obeying creatures - wouldn't it be better then, if we didn't know anything about him? That way we COULD exert free will without any influencing, and if we'd made it to "good" beings, we would indeed be so because we wanted to be "good", not because of fear of punishment or something.
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DagothGares
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posted July 27, 2009 10:40 AM |
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The fact is no one has any excuse for any sin.
Except that God made someone the way he is or dumped him somewhere where the sins are bound to happen, etc.
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That is kind of the whole point of the cross.
Actually, this is why christianity has sometimes become the religion of death at times. I think it's more that the diehard christians couldn't believe their champion died at the pagan cross. Then they fabricated how they washed away the original sin etc, because it seemed quite fitting that no one went to God's kingdom before Jesus, despite there even being God's people, etc.
Anyway, I think focusing on the death of Christ is entirely not the point of christianity. The passion was a medieval play, by the way. Anyway, I think I read this somewhere, but shouldn't cristianity be about the life of christ, instead of his death? Of course, then all those crucifixes would be false symbols, so it may just be a dream on my part. And I'm deviating from the topic as well, oh, my.
Anyway, I see many religious people always disagreeing about hell, so maybe it's not a bad idea to form your own ideas of it. i mean, I've seen several people claiming to be scholars of the greek language claiming that there is no such thing as hell that the lake of fire was the symbol of destruction of hell for example. I've also seen some evangelists claim that in the end everyone will be forgiven of their sins, because God loves us oogy boogy much. Then of course there are people like elodin who also seems to know the bible inside out and can give everything it's own twist in it. I think I'll be following the nice scholars, by the way. Religion of death isn't really for me. of course, one can hardly blame it, since death was so prevalent in the times when it originated. And people stopped dying like flies until somewhere halfway the nineteenth century, so we can hardly blame religion of not having adapted yet, I suppose.
Sorry for going out on a tangent, here... I just started writing and didn't really know how to stop, until I could shove elodin one.
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Elodin
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posted July 27, 2009 12:06 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 12:09, 27 Jul 2009.
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It would mean that there wasn't any judgement at all anymore: god just decided to throw out a lifeline two millennia ago and be done with it - they who are able to pick it will save themselves, the rest goes down.
Not at all. If you sin it is becasue you chose to sin. If you don't repent it is becasue you chose not to repent. So if you go to hell it is because you chose to no receive the mercy of God.
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However, in that case it's god who decided to damn all humans to eternal damnation by default because of A&E's doings.
No one is damned for the sins of Adam and Eve. A person is damned for his own sins.
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Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Another consequence: if it's GOD'S MERCY that saves us - as opposed to we working to make up for the past, EARNING us a place in heaven - then it's obvious, that we do not DESERVE or EARN hell as a fate either, but it's GOD'S WRATH that places us there by default.
Sorry, but that does not follow. God extending mercy to a truly repentant person does not mean the person did not deserve hell. It means that God extended mercy to the repentant.
In the same wasy the presiden to the US can chose to pardon a convicted criminal. It does not mean that the criminal did not deserve the conviction. It just means the president pardoned him.
You also claim God is not accepting of the creation as he made it. But that makes no sense. You appealed to Adam and Eve so you should be aware that Adam and Eve were created as innocent people, not as sinners. So your statement makes not the slightest bit of sense.
Again, you have a bad misunderstanding of free will. Free will does not mean the right to act withou consequence of your actions. It means the ability to chose your actions. You can chose to sin but sin carries a price. You can chose to jump off a cliff but you will go "spat."
@DagothGares
No, Christianity is not a religion of death, it is about passing from death to life.
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Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
No, diehard Christians did not fabricate Christianity. But diehard atheists do a lot of fabricating about Christianity.
No, I'm afraid you don't have the slightest clue about Christianity. Jesus's mission was to die on the cross. He lived a sinless human life and sacrificed himself for us on the cross. Without the death of Christ everyone would go to hell.
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Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Sure, some "scholars" say all sorts of things that are not true. I'll stick with the Word and reject false teachers. A scholar who makes up nice lies is not being nice to you.
A religion of death isn't really for me either. Christianity is a "religion" of life.
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