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JollyJoker
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posted July 27, 2009 12:46 PM |
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@ Elodin
I don't know what's so difficult to understand: it's either heaven or hell. If it's GOD'S MERCY to let people into heaven, like the president is pardoning a convicted criminal, then it follows that we are all convicted criminals BY DEFAULT, destined to hell, whatever we do, and can applay only to God's Mercy. God's Mercy, however, is the lifeline of Jesus and repenting.
So no matter what we do in our life, if be believe in Jesus and repent our sins at the end we will be saved.
Likewise, no matter what we do or what we don't do, if we DO NOT believe in Jesus and DO NOT repent our sins - which is the default situation, the way we are born - we'll end in hell.
Which means, we are destined to hell, that's the default situation - and this fate can we avoid only by repenting our sins and believing in Jesus before we die. That's actually rather simple and rather clear. That means, however, if you live a "good" life in a human sense, but happen to be a Buddhist, you'll sadly be reborn in hell so-to-speak: neither did you repent your sins nor did you believe in Christ, so it's getting hot for you.
Now, the question isn't, why God doesn't show no mercy to the buddhist or the unrepentant gay - the question is, why those people are all destined to hell by default. They might just be destined to Nothingness, while hell was reserved for the really bad cases (just as an example). After all we speak about an eternity of pain, which seems something like a harsh sentence for some Chinese peasant, born in some far away corner of the world, who cannot read or write and never heard about Jesus in his whole life. In fact, even Nothingness seems a harsg sentence compared to someone who led a sinful life, but had for some reason the good fortune not to die in a state of sin, but live long enough to find to Jesus and repentance.
Justice? Come on.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted July 27, 2009 12:53 PM |
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Jesus's mission was to die on the cross. He lived a sinless human life and sacrificed himself for us on the cross. Without the death of Christ everyone would go to hell.
This is what I have never understood. Not during religion class in school, nor later on.
Once it is said, Jesus and God are the same person. On the other hand, Jeses asks God while hanging on the corss to "let the goblet pass by".
And second...what sense did the death on the cross have? Which sins did he take away? ALL sins from EVERY human being on earth that time? Or only from the israelits? Or from whom?
If from all...even the child murderers that time were called "sin-free" after that?
And what did he (Jesus) think what will happen now? Especially ion those regions which were far away from that region he was living/dying?
Like china for example...they even didn't know about his death on the cross
Or take the indians in north america.....how should that work?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 27, 2009 01:04 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 13:07, 27 Jul 2009.
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Some questions I would like answered, by somebody who has a Christian upbringing. If possible.
It is my understanding that 'idols' and carved images (or similar) are something of a no no. Yet..crosses and statues of christ and saints are often treated as holy objects. How do you reconcile this?
If I am not mistaken there is a 'do not follow man' (or similar) phrase in the bible. Yet people act as if only a preacher can 'forgive' sins (in some cases), and follow these preachers as if they had the ear of God. What do you say about this?
Why would a being of love care about who loves who or how? If indeed we are all equal in gods eyes, wouldn't that mean that loving one person is equal to loving another?
Now on another note. I always respected Jesus, because he resisted all fleshly temptations. As a human, to me that was a heck of a task. It becomes a lot less impressive if he was a deity 'in disguise' so to speak.
Edit : Also, why would Lucifer tempt God? Doesn't make sense to try to tempt the man who owns and made everything....
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Message received.
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2009 01:23 PM |
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I think Jesus was a real person but they exaggerated him A LOT. Plus I find the "hokus pokus avada kedavra" stuff very unlikely lol 
Also how isnt a cross a holy idol?
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Doomforge
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posted July 27, 2009 01:28 PM |
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Quote:
Some questions I would like answered, by somebody who has a Christian upbringing. If possible.
It is my understanding that 'idols' and carved images (or similar) are something of a no no. Yet..crosses and statues of christ and saints are often treated as holy objects. How do you reconcile this?
It was invented by Catholic Church
like:
2nd age: holy water
year 325: Nicean council: The person of Jesus fused with Mitra (a pagan god) including the date of birth and such.
year 593: purgatory invented (to amplify a very profitable selling of indulgences)
year 726: 2nd commandment removed, opening a profitable business (selling all those crosses, mosaics and such).
not all of those dates may be accurate, my sources may not be extra valid.
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If I am not mistaken there is a 'do not follow man' (or similar) phrase in the bible. Yet people act as if only a preacher can 'forgive' sins (in some cases), and follow these preachers as if they had the ear of God. What do you say about this?
Lateran Council: 1120 or so (don't remember exact date) : confession "in preacher's ear" invented.
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Why would a being of love care about who loves who or how? If indeed we are all equal in gods eyes, wouldn't that mean that loving one person is equal to loving another?
Dunno
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Edit : Also, why would Lucifer tempt God? Doesn't make sense to try to tempt the man who owns and made everything....
It's the Old Testament, right?
if so.. don't ask. 
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted July 27, 2009 02:31 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:35, 27 Jul 2009.
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So no matter what we do in our life, if be believe in Jesus and repent our sins at the end we will be saved.
Likewise, no matter what we do or what we don't do, if we DO NOT believe in Jesus and DO NOT repent our sins - which is the default situation, the way we are born - we'll end in hell
If you sin there is nothing DEFAULT about it. If you sin you have chosen to sin. Sin carries a punishment. So if you sin you have a punishment awaiting you. Don't blame God, blame you. God did not make you sin if you chose to sin.
If you cast yourself on God's mercy and repent sincerely God can forgive you.
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Now, the question isn't, why God doesn't show no mercy to the buddhist or the unrepentant gay - the question is, why those people are all destined to hell by default.
God draws every man to himself. You can reject the light he gives. No one has excuse for their sins.
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Once it is said, Jesus and God are the same person. On the other hand, Jeses asks God while hanging on the corss to "let the goblet pass by".
I have answered this question many times. I think it is this thread where I post a very long explaination with relevant scriptures. Here is a brief explaination.
God has at various times manifested himself locally in different manners. Such as in the burning bush, the Angel of the Lord, the pillar of fire, the Pillar of Cloud, the Shekinah glory over the Ark of the Covenant, ect. Those were temporary manifestations of God.
God has alwasys existed as the Spirit. 2000 years ago God began to also exist as the man Jesus Christ and in Christ he lived a human life and died a human death on the cross. On the cross the sins of mankind were laid on this human manifestation of God. Jesus Christ is the permanent human manifestaion of God.
The sacrifice of Christ dealt will all sin. But the sacrifice is only effective for sins that you repent of. In the Old Covenant a Jew would lay his hands on an animal and confess his sins. Then he would sacrifice the animal. This was symbolic of the animal dying in his place and pointed towards the Lamb of God who was to come.
Only when you "place your hands on Christ" and confess your sins is the sacrifice of Christ effective for your sins.
@ Mytical
An idol is something that you worship. A Christian does not worship a cross or statue. I am not Catholic. My denomination does not have statutes in the church building but I see nothing wrong with Christian art. There was artwork in the Tabernacle and in the Temple. As long as you don't worship art there is nothing wrong with it.
The Bible says nothing about confessing your sins to a priest. It says to confess to God.
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Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
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Why would a being of love care about who loves who or how? If indeed we are all equal in gods eyes, wouldn't that mean that loving one person is equal to loving another?
God created mankind male and female according to the Bible. He ordained that a marriage is between a man and a woman according to the Bible. The Bible says all sex outside the marriage covenant is sin. Any other kind of marriage goes against the natural order that God created and goes against his commandments according to the Bible.
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Now on another note. I always respected Jesus, because he resisted all fleshly temptations. As a human, to me that was a heck of a task. It becomes a lot less impressive if he was a deity 'in disguise' so to speak.
Jesus is not God in disguise. He is God existing as a man. The temptations were real.
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Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Lucifer tempted Adam and Eve, not God.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 27, 2009 03:10 PM |
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Meager answers to lots of questions - and the answers are unsatisfactory:
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So no matter what we do in our life, if be believe in Jesus and repent our sins at the end we will be saved.
Likewise, no matter what we do or what we don't do, if we DO NOT believe in Jesus and DO NOT repent our sins - which is the default situation, the way we are born - we'll end in hell
If you sin there is nothing DEFAULT about it. If you sin you have chosen to sin. Sin carries a punishment. So if you sin you have a punishment awaiting you. Don't blame God, blame you. God did not make you sin if you chose to sin.
If you cast yourself on God's mercy and repent sincerely God can forgive you.
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Now, the question isn't, why God doesn't show no mercy to the buddhist or the unrepentant gay - the question is, why those people are all destined to hell by default.
God draws every man to himself. You can reject the light he gives. No one has excuse for their sins.
Clouding the point! EVERYONE, EVERY HUMAN is per definition sinning, otherwise he wouldn't be a human. That's why we must repent. Since EVERY human does it, it's basically a property of free will. You are just turning the causalities upside down by saying that humans choose to sin.
True is however, that simple living will see you doing lots of sin you won't even be aware of - which means you are not sinning by choice but because of the imperfect human nature. Being haughty without noticing it, not registering the state that someone is because of self-absorption, and turning therefore down a plead for help, and so on.
In fact EVERY life will lead straight to hell, if you don't become active, repent your sins and believe in Jesus.
Call me a sceptic, but I don't think that god's light will have shown far into China 1000 years ago which would seem a pity for all those poor Chinese not really having had a chance to escape hell...
It still doesn't answer the question, though why there's just heaven and hell. I mean, it's like there was only beheading or knighthood, that doesn't make much sense.
Not to mention the fact that a superior being like god should have methods to make sinners conscious of their deeds and realize of what they did, a prerequisite for repenting: you can't repent what you don't understand. Which means, the actual regulation is repenting to disobey without understanding why it was wrong, only that is was wrong.
Call it as you like, but that is just blind obediance, like in an army. The simple soldier doesn't need to understand the WHY, the only thing he has to know is, that he has to follow an order. And that's how it works here as well: only thing you ever need to know is, you didn't follow gods orders - you disobeyed, and it's THAT what you have to repent. You don't, for example need to know THAT god doesn't want you to be gay, not WHY. So IF you are gay and gave in to the temptation, you have to repent not that you are gay - why would you repent that? -, you have to repent being disobedient.
And the only purpose for this is to ensure blind obediance. It's in contradiction to reason and insight.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
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posted July 27, 2009 03:25 PM |
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Edited by Kraken at 15:30, 27 Jul 2009.
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Jolly Joker you don't need to CAPS all of your words all the time, chill down bro.
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If you sin there is nothing DEFAULT about it. If you sin you have chosen to sin. Sin carries a punishment. So if you sin you have a punishment awaiting you. Don't blame God, blame you. God did not make you sin if you chose to sin.
If you cast yourself on God's mercy and repent sincerely God can forgive you.
Dude, there's no such thing as Sinning anymore. I'm going to live my whole entire life without Repenting at all and I'm going to live a Happy Life, I will never let some Ancient threats ruin my life and tell me what to do or if I don't then go to Torment forever. And if there is a God, then when I die he'll let me into Heaven because he's supposed to be All-loving and caring. If I live a Great successful life without committing crimes then I'll go to Heaven. A completely Loving God would Let every good soul into his heaven. And if he says that you cannot be gay (I'm straight btw) , only my Religion, you must pray for ever small problem, you must repent for every single thing that you ever do and If you don't then you go to Hell! If a God was like that then I wouldn't want to have that God.
That God is not All-Loving and Caring.
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Vini Vidi Vici
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted July 27, 2009 04:23 PM |
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Dude, when someone rapes a baby that is not "just being human." Any sin a person commits he choses to do it. If you are mean to your wife you were not accidentally mean to your wife. If you call her a ***** that was not an accident. There was something in your heart that was wrong and your mouth opened and out it came.
Sin is not "basically a property of free will" as you claim. Jesus had free will and did not sin, so your premise is clearly wrong.
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It still doesn't answer the question, though why there's just heaven and hell. I mean, it's like there was only beheading or knighthood, that doesn't make much sense
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Errrr, what don't you understand? God made heaven. God made hell. Hell was made for the devil and his angels but if you want to be a rebel you get to go there too. No rebels in heaven. Sorry.
There only needs to be heaven and hell. Hell for punishment, heaven for those who are not being punished.
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Not to mention the fact that a superior being like god should have methods to make sinners conscious of their deeds and realize of what they did, a prerequisite for repenting: you can't repent what you don't understand.
He does. It is called a conscience. You can sear it however. Once you begin to go against what you know to be right it gets easier and easier until eventually you feel no guilt. Serial killers typically begin with small animals. As their heart grows harder they move on to people.
And please don't tell me that there is anyone who has not chosen to do soemthing they knew was wrong (aside from Christ.)
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Call it as you like, but that is just blind obediance, like in an army.
Oh, no there is nothing blind about saying that it is wrong to steal JJ. It is people who think it is ok to steal and sleep around on their spouse who are blind. I think what you are having trouble with is the issue of accountability. You seemingly don't think people should be accountable for their actions. God should just wink and nod when they sin and let everyone into heaven? Sorry, that ain't God. God holds us accountable for our actions.
@ kraken
Dude, you are free to believe what you want to. You say there is no sin, I say there is.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 27, 2009 06:54 PM |
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I'm sick of reading about child molesters and mass murderers when I talk of members of a different religion. I'm sick of reading about deeds of people who arguably have a sick mind and should get healed by a loving god instead of punished for all eternity. Accountability? The only thing you are held accountable for is disobeying, and if you don't obey you get punished for all eternity.
Isn't that worse than everything else? If you had the abiliy and capability to heal the sick (spirit), to make a soul realize what they actually did wrong, how much pain they inflicted on others in life, confronting victims and evil-doers, let an evil-doer feel the emotions they caused - and then you just sent them down to be tortured themselves into all eternity, for disobeying. That's so petty, that it would be ridiculous, if it wasn't so serious.
I would say, it's evil. Being able to do everything, but then being content with sending people into eternal anguish by the billions is evil. And having a ready scapegoat like satan who conveniently takes all the blame when in fact that guy only takes what he's getting from above.
Commands and punishment - probably all people understood a couple thousand years ago, but the times they are a'changing, and thankfully so.
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angelito
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posted July 27, 2009 07:05 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 19:07, 27 Jul 2009.
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Is there some kind of "scale" which determines how "bad" a sin is?
I mean...let's say someone worked on sunday (If I recall correctly, it is a sin, right?), while another man killed 25 young women.
Do they have to suffer in "hell" for a different time, or doesn't that matter at all?
That would mean, if you have sinned ONE time in your life, you can go on like that forever, coz 1 sin is equal to another...and equal to 1,000.
@ Elodin
Your answer is not quite sufficent. As i wrote: What's about those people on earth who didn't get a chance to get knowledge of Jesus at all? He would have been able to travel around all continents (all mighty) and spread his words all over there. But he didn't.
Doesn't sound "very fair"....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheDeath
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posted July 27, 2009 08:12 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:17, 27 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
Dude, when someone rapes a baby that is not "just being human." Any sin a person commits he choses to do it. If you are mean to your wife you were not accidentally mean to your wife. If you call her a ***** that was not an accident. There was something in your heart that was wrong and your mouth opened and out it came.
Sin is not "basically a property of free will" as you claim. Jesus had free will and did not sin, so your premise is clearly wrong.
Right. That's what I tried to say. 
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@ Elodin
Your answer is not quite sufficent. As i wrote: What's about those people on earth who didn't get a chance to get knowledge of Jesus at all? He would have been able to travel around all continents (all mighty) and spread his words all over there. But he didn't.
Doesn't sound "very fair"....
You don't have to "logically" choose to your own best interest (I mean, avoid Hell and all that), you have to choose it honestly from your own self/mentality/heart. Anything else is "fake" thoughts.
You need to meet Jesus to form logical conclusions, but you DO NOT need to meet anyone to have your own conclusions from your heart (sorry for expression but you know what I mean).
Interesting point someone made about "an army". Suppose there are two armies, A and B, and of course each have their own viewpoints (let's not say communism vs capitalism because it would escalate into another subject).
Now, you, by heart, want to be in B, as you agree with most viewpoints there. So you do, and then you find out B are cruel and torture their own men or whatever. Boomer.
now you somehow get teleported back in time to choose again. By heart you still would like B as you hate A's viewpoints (for instance), but now you know B are cruel, so what's it gonna be?
Logic is irrelevant. If you want A simply because you don't like B's cruelty on you, I'm sorry but A aren't fools to take you in if you're not honest about being with them and fighting for their (peaceful) viewpoints. They won't take you in.
The outcome is the same, whether you want to avoid the "Hell" or not, as long as from the heart you don't want it (not out of being afraid for your skin or best interest to not suffer), you're not gonna get away from it.
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mvassilev
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posted July 27, 2009 08:28 PM |
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The thing you don't seem to understand is, that to go to heaven, not only do you need to agree with Jesus's philosophy, but you have to believe in God as well.
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TheDeath
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posted July 27, 2009 08:32 PM |
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How does one define "believe", I mean for what period? You just have to accept him, and the only reason you have to "believe" in him is to give you help to make it easier for you. Over time, it's easier to accept him later on if you do that. Doesn't mean it's impossible otherwise depending on your viewpoints of course.
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mvassilev
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posted July 27, 2009 08:34 PM |
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You didn't quite understand what I meant. Let's take two people, A and B.
A thinks murder, theft, etc. are wrong, is compassionate and helps those less fortunate, loves his neighbour, and accepts Jesus as his saviour.
B is exactly the same as A, but has never heard of Jesus.
Only A is going to heaven.
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TheDeath
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posted July 27, 2009 08:44 PM |
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Re-read my post. He can, because he is already the same way, he won't have to change. "Accepting" Jesus can be done in an instant that way.
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Corribus
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posted July 27, 2009 09:20 PM |
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I have to agree with JJ's points in the last few pages, and furthermore sympathize with his exasperation.
I'll take his point one step further. Lusting after another woman is, I believe, considered a sin, particularly outside of marriage. And yet, it's a basic, nonvoluntary biochemical response. You have no control over it, and so unless you've been chemically neutered, it's impossible for anyone to live a life without committing this "sin".
Am I supposed to repent - feel guilty - for an emotional reaction that's completely involuntary? And if I don't confess guilt because I found some other woman attractive, I burn in hell for it, even though sexual attraction is a part of how he supposedly made me?
Rape I can understand - I would have to chose that. But mere lust, something that doesn't involve choice?
Please, it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
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mvassilev
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posted July 27, 2009 09:35 PM |
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"Accepting" Jesus can be done in an instant that way.
How can you accept someone you've never even heard of?
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TheDeath
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posted July 27, 2009 09:50 PM |
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I have to agree with JJ's points in the last few pages, and furthermore sympathize with his exasperation.
I'll take his point one step further. Lusting after another woman is, I believe, considered a sin, particularly outside of marriage. And yet, it's a basic, nonvoluntary biochemical response. You have no control over it, and so unless you've been chemically neutered, it's impossible for anyone to live a life without committing this "sin".
Am I supposed to repent - feel guilty - for an emotional reaction that's completely involuntary? And if I don't confess guilt because I found some other woman attractive, I burn in hell for it, even though sexual attraction is a part of how he supposedly made me?
No I'm sorry but you can have control over it. Of course, not at the first time, and no one said you have to be PERFECT and not sin at all -- that's why we can repent. Why do you think it's said that everyone sins? The question is: do you take measures to prevent that further?
THAT's choice.
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Rape I can understand - I would have to chose that. But mere lust, something that doesn't involve choice?
No, that's why you can repent. The choice is whether you feel bad about it or not.
@mvass: I think you'll kinda meet him when you're dead
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Corribus
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posted July 27, 2009 10:00 PM |
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@Death
Why should I repent or feel guilt for something that is not a matter of choice? The very meaning of guilt is that you feel sorry for an action you chose. If you didn't chose to do it, you cannot feel guilt for it. What is the meaning of repenting for something that's not in your control? Feeling guilt for being sexually attracted to a woman makes about as much sense as feeling guilt for being hungry.
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