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Elodin
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posted July 27, 2009 11:07 PM |
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I'm sick of reading about child molesters and mass murderers when I talk of members of a different religion.
You claimed that all people sinned and had to sin because of free will. That is untrue. Like I said, Jesus had free will but did not sin.
You said God should "should have methods to make sinners conscious of their deeds and realize of what they did." I showed he did. Your conscience, that you can sear. And he woos us as the Spirit.
And like always, you love to throw in the term "blind." I showed that your slur of believers was not appropriate. People are blinded by sin, not by obedience to God.
You certainly did hot appear to be just speaking of members of a different religion.
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Accountability? The only thing you are held accountable for is disobeying, and if you don't obey you get punished for all eternity.
Actually you are wrong. On the day of judgment every one will be judged according to his deeds unless they have repented.
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Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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I'm sick of reading about deeds of people who arguably have a sick mind and should get healed by a loving god instead of punished for all eternity.
Baby rapists and murderers know their deeds are wrong. That is why they try to cover up their deeds. No virus have they. We make who will we become day by day, moment by moment, decision by decision.
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I would say, it's evil.
It is not God who is evil.
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Being able to do everything, but then being content with sending people into eternal anguish by the billions is evil
I'm sorry you don't like free will. I like free will. I don't want to be a robot. Oh, and before you said there is no good and there is no evil. How can you call God evil if there is no good and no evil. It is amazing that the people who say there is no good and no evil think they can judge God with their selective morality. I think that shows certain attitudes that I certainly can't go into here.
God allows people free will. He wants everyone to repent but won't force it.
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2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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And having a ready scapegoat like satan who conveniently takes all the blame when in fact that guy only takes what he's getting from above.
Huh? You are the one making excuses for baby rapers. If a person rapes a baby it is that person's fault. Satan can tempt you but he can't make you sin.
@ angelito
Yes. There are degrees of punishment in hell. All sins are not equal.
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Your answer is not quite sufficient. As i wrote: What's about those people on earth who didn't get a chance to get knowledge of Jesus at all? He would have been able to travel around all continents (all mighty) and spread his words all over there. But he didn't.
I'm not sure how many times I have to answer that question. God gives every person light. As you respond to the light you receive more light. As you reject light the light you have grows dimmer and eventually fades away entirely. Your heart grows harder and harder as you reject light.
You think Jesus had to physically travel all over the world? No. By the Spirit he draws every man to himself. A person can chose to reject that and also to act against his conscience.
@ Corribus
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I'll take his point one step further. Lusting after another woman is, I believe, considered a sin, particularly outside of marriage.
No. Deliberately focusing your thoughts on a woman sexually (who is not your wife) is a sin. Making her a sex object.
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Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted July 27, 2009 11:08 PM |
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So God subjects humans to a Kobayashi Maru, and then punishes them with eternal damnation if they don't apologize for their inevitable failure. Yeah, that's a religion I'd sign up for. [/sarcasm]
No idea what Kobayashi Maru is, but I'm here to tell you that this is not an "inevitable" failure at all.
First thing though, you have to WANT it. It's easy to say something is impossible when you don't even try 
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mvassilev
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posted July 27, 2009 11:19 PM |
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To put it simply, God is throwing you into a roomful of spikes and blaming you if you get impaled.
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TheDeath
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posted July 27, 2009 11:22 PM |
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Nah that would be more like chance. We're talking about will
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mvassilev
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posted July 27, 2009 11:25 PM |
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You should've willed to not step on one of the spikes, then. 
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TheDeath
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posted July 27, 2009 11:29 PM |
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If you can do something about it then of course you're going to avoid it (this, I don't think is even about will but instinct to survive).
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Corribus
Hero of Order
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posted July 28, 2009 12:08 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:10, 28 Jul 2009.
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@Death:
Kobayashi Maru. Though, the article is terrible.
@Mvass
Almost. More like:
To put it simply, God is throwing you into a roomful of spikes and blaming you if when you get impaled.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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TheDeath
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posted July 28, 2009 12:16 AM |
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I don't see the analogy with what you linked. Yes in that test you are guaranteed to get your ass kicked by the Klingons, but you've made the choice, which is what matters after they kill you (of course, being on topic, assuming God exists).
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Corribus
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posted July 28, 2009 12:25 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:28, 28 Jul 2009.
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@Death
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I don't see the analogy with what you linked.
You theorized that God put us in these bodies to test our will, but he also designed those bodies to sin without our say in the matter. We have no choice but to fail - no matter what we do, we'll fail the test. And then we're supposed to apologize for it or else we get punished by an eternity of pain. God put us in an unwinnable scenario and then we're supposed to repent for not winning.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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TheDeath
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posted July 28, 2009 12:33 AM |
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Depends what you mean by failure, because the choice is the important thing. Even if you get your ass kicked (in the analogy), you still made your choice, and don't "fail".
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Corribus
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posted July 28, 2009 12:38 AM |
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Forget it, Death. Just tell me what language you prefer, I'll go take a couple courses in it, and then maybe we can continue this discussion.
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TheDeath
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posted July 28, 2009 12:47 AM |
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Was a quote really necessary to point out where I disagreed?
alright:Quote:
God put us in an unwinnable scenario
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Elodin
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posted July 28, 2009 01:42 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:43, 28 Jul 2009.
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To put it simply, God is throwing you into a roomful of spikes and blaming you if when you get impaled.
More like you are a guest in a house. The owner of the house told you you could go anywhere in the house except for one room. He gets a call and has to leave to help in an emergency (he is a doctor.) When he leaves you try the door of that forbidden room and it is locked. You kick down the door and enter.
When you enter you fall through the floor and break your neck (the house is on stilts.) The owner of the house had locked the door becasue going through the door would be bad for you. He had been remodeling his house but had not yet replaced the floor in the forbidden room.
Is the house owner to blame? No. You chose to enter the forbidden room.
And no, our bodies were not designed to sin. You can chose to sin or not to sin.
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mvassilev
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posted July 28, 2009 02:21 AM |
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To make your analogy more accurate, the guy who was invited into the house is my grandfather. And yet the doctor who lives in the house doesn't trust any of my grandfather's descendants, even though they had nothing to do with my grandfather's decision.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 28, 2009 08:52 AM |
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@ Death
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Not to mention I gave you a challenge to love all prisoners and let them all roam free in society (heaven), but somehow I don't think you are in a position to judge God if you don't do even that. It's easy to say "if I were God I would let everyone in Heaven" but just try to do that in real life if you think you're so loving and see how it goes.
You gave me a challenge? I reread the thread and didn't find anything. If THAT QUOTE is supposed to be the challenge, then I have to say you've seemingly lost it completely now. Look at your last sentence. What you say is this. "It's easy to say, 'if I were infinitely rich I'd feed every starving human', but try to do that with your real-life income, if you think you are so benevolent and see how it goes." Or how about this: "It's easy to say, 'if I could heal every sickness I'd do it', but just try to heal people in real life if you think you are so helpful and see how it goes."
It's nonsense again.
@ Corribus
It's nice to see you getting stuck there as well - you might indeed speak a different language there.
@ Elodin, primarily
Yes, I'm sure, god gave everyone a conscience and his spirit shines all over the land, so that everyone is in a good position to know about everything. If a child somewhere in deep Iran is educated in the Quoran the way you educate your children in the wisdom of the Bible, it's perfectly clear, this child's conscience will start to constantly remind it that there is something fundamentally wrong with what all the people around it teach, and it will then realize that god's spirit shines - the REAL god's spirit - and as a matter of course find its way to the right god. Happens all the time all over the world, no problem.
Therefore, of course, everyone who does not find god this way, is doing it because they wilfully suppress their conscience and close or avert their eyes before the spirit of god - guilty like hell.
Likewise, everyone who has sex outside of marriage should be warned by their conscience which signals "wrong wrong wrong" all the time. It's immediately obvious that it's a deadly sin, when two grown-up people who are attached to no one have sex before marriage.
Likewise it's sin, if you marry and some time later find out it doesn't work, if you get divorced.
It's a matter of course that everyone who uses conscience and let themselves guide willingly by the spirit of god will immediately realize who their partner for life will be, so here we have a wilful and unreasonable break of god's commands again, in case of sex outside of marriage and divorce.
Not to mention gay sex. Imagine having sex outside of marriage first, then marrying, then betraying spouse with someone of the same sex, then getting a divorce, then going into a civil union with the partner of the same sex. You'd think, conscience and spirit of god should have warned that person off, but since persons get used to sinning the more they do, chances are that a serial sinner like that will repent only the completely ok part: the marriage. Clear proof of the godless ways of such persons.
They make their choice and it's fine that god doesn't take those monsters into his heaven because they would corrupt the whole place with their sinful ways.
As a consequence those sinners may be raped and tortured for all eternity by demons in hell - after all that's what they bargained for. Kin of them, their children and parents, for example, if admitted into heaven, may, if interested, watch via direct feed HHTV, either in full sensurround for a full "live" impression, or in normal heavencolour with mastersurround sound.
And let's not get started about the real monsters, the child molesters and serial killers, the torturers and rapers who show their true colours even as small children when they start torturing animals, insects first, tearing limb after limb off of them, later with mice and maybe rats, all kinds of little innocent pets, even cats and dogs, put them into the microwave oven and watch them explode, cut them up and into pieces, burn them slowly - all just a warm-up for the real deal: doing it with real persons. Yes, those completely sane examples of people, where evil took roots in youngest years, who made their first conscious choice to be evil probably in the crib when biting the hand that was feeding them their bottle, those evil monsters must burn in hell for all eternity, being cut, burned, torn, sheared, raped, stitched, exploded and quartered over and over and over and over again; it may not repair any damage, but that's what HHTV is for: victims, if admitted into heaven, may, if interested, watch via direct feed HHTV, either in full sensurround for a full "live" impression, or in normal heavencolour with mastersurround sound.
Does anyone think, I'm ironic? Sarcastic or even cynical? Well, no, not really. I just summarized a couple of things. Don't sound too pretty, but, you know, god isn't one to be tampered with, no crap-soft liberal wussy like so many humans talking about resocialization and such nonsense. Nah. Clear, precise rules, clear precise punishment in case you break them. Don't say you were not warned, nosir.
Ah, they should make a movie out of Dante's Inferno or something. Different title, though: "Hell Report"? Nah, not colorful enough. "Realms of Anguish". That's not bad. Will be for adults only, of course, but it might have some therapeutical effect. With todays technology - you could just start with the Disciples 2 graphics for the Infernal faction and go on from there. Bosch paintings might be a good starting point either. Everything is possible.
For heaven as well. "Plains of Bliss." Ah, but that would be boring to watch - what would happen? A slow pan over millions of enraptured faces? No one will watch. Hell sells better.
Thinking about it, is it possible that some of the worst evil-doers in history will become actual minions of Satan, helpers, who simply continue the job they did in life? Let's say the cruellest concentration camp officers - they'll probably make a nice addition to Satan's arsenal. In that case it might just happen that a victim of such a guy in life, having renounced god in his excrutiating pain and sorrow, will land in hell, so that the torture may continue with the same participants. Poetic justice - because Satan is devious, isn't he? The master of lie and deceit. He'd probably make sure to switch their roles after half an eternity or so...
Soundtrack - suggestions:
Frank Zappa - The Torture Never Stops (A must)
The Doors - Light My Fire (nice ironic touch)
AC/DC - Highway To Hell (cliché, of course, but a must-be)
Alice Cooper - Dead Babies/Killer (very atmospheric)
Nirvana - Rape Me (a no-brainer to include)
Of course you could make the soundtrack solely with Rolling Stones songs:
Sympathy For The Devil
Let It Bleed
You Can't Alawys Get What You Want (nicely ironic)
Torn And Frayed...
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Elodin
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posted July 28, 2009 10:40 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 10:42, 28 Jul 2009.
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@JJ
No, you did not "just summarize some unpleasant things." Your portrayal of hell does not match Biblical teaching. Demons will not be raping or torturing anyone. Demons will be tormented just as the human rebels are. And certainly no one in heaven is going to be watching those in hell suffering to get enjoyment out of it. People in heaven have been perfected and take no joy out of the suffering of others. God takes no such joy either. You are presented your own view of a God that you hate, not the view that the Bible presents.
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Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
I reject your notion that child rapists and serial killers are sick and not responsible for their actions. Each person makes who he will becomes, as I said, decision by decision, moment by moment. I mentioned the child who begins by torturing animals though he knows it is wrong and progresses to humans as his conscience becomes seared. He chose what he would become.
The thoughts we chose to think, the attitudes we chose to adopt, and the actions we chose to take build who we are "one block at a time." I am accountable to God and to society for who I am.
I've already stated my case that people knowingly act against their conscience and against the Spirit of God. You disagree. I've given my reasons for my thoughts so there is no reason to argue with you ad nauseum over the same issue. You are free to think that we are helpless victims of our environment and that God is an evil and perverted being (though you deny that good or evil exists.)
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angelito
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posted July 28, 2009 11:15 AM |
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I'm not sure how many times I have to answer that question. God gives every person light. As you respond to the light you receive more light. As you reject light the light you have grows dimmer and eventually fades away entirely. Your heart grows harder and harder as you reject light.
You think Jesus had to physically travel all over the world? No. By the Spirit he draws every man to himself. A person can chose to reject that and also to act against his conscience.
Sorry to be a bit picky here, but the your answer made me doubt a bit.
You really wanna tell me, those pygmies in the rain forrest of the brazilian jungle have recieved God's spirit?
And also the aboriginies in australia?
And the Inuit?
Why don't you find any cross there? Not a single sign for christianity?
Or are you telling me they all refused the light?
Come on....in my opinion, your theory just doesn't fit, because when the bible was written, mankind didn't know about all the other areas where humans already settled, therefore, the writers of the bible didn't take that into consideration. But God should have known...he made it.....But that's just MY theory 
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JollyJoker
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posted July 28, 2009 11:50 AM |
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Well, I reject your notion that the bible describes a real existing godly being. I further reject that you stated a case. You can only quote the Bible, and that book speaks for itself, for everyone who can read. That the god described in there should be benign, loving and caring is, let's say far-fetched. For what reason should he be worshipped? Moral superiority? Fondness for his creation throughout history? Understanding of human weaknesses (he - as a creator - is responsible for)? Communicativity? Helpfulness? Friendliness?
His power then? His promise to "save" obedient humans from damnation - a damnation that he invented, mind you?
I always thought you'd have to earn even respect, not to mention worship or devotion.
With what exactly did god earn that? By supposedly creating us? For that I'd thank him, but we didn't ask for creation so are we really owing him for that one? It's been not exactly paradise as far as the eye reaches back into history. On the other hand it's something like a gift, and you know what they say about gifts and complaining about them. So thanks and no complaints about shortcomings, but owing? Worship?
If you want to believe in a being that demands obedience for obedience's sake you can of course do it. But where's the difference to a dictator demanding obedience to his personal laws, threatening to kill everyone who's caught breaking them, while promising everyone who keeps to them a fine house in the capital sometime in the future? God's laws are by no means self-explanatory, are they?
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Elodin
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posted July 28, 2009 12:11 PM |
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You really wanna tell me, those pygmies in the rain forrest of the brazilian jungle have recieved God's spirit?
And also the aboriginies in australia?
And the Inuit?
No, only believers have received the Spirit. But the Spirit draws every mand and grants light as the person is willing to receive light. A person who is responsive to the light will continue to walk in the light that he knows and will receive more light.
There are instances of missionaries being taken by the Spirit to a tribe deep in Africa by supernatural means (like teleportation.) But of course you will reject their testimony because there is "no proof" their tale is true. A similar story is recorded of Phillip the evangelist in the book of Acts.
And as I said, every person has knowingly done what they know to be wrong.
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Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The Spirit had directed Phillip to a man who was seeking understanding. After Phillip helped the man, the Spirit caught Phillip up and took him to another place to share the gospel there.
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Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Act 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
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angelito
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posted July 28, 2009 01:18 PM |
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No, only believers have received the Spirit. But the Spirit draws every mand and grants light as the person is willing to receive light. A person who is responsive to the light will continue to walk in the light that he knows and will receive more light.
How can you know what light (religion/belief) means, when you are blind (never heard of Jesus/God)? Needs an explanation...
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There are instances of missionaries being taken by the Spirit to a tribe deep in Africa by supernatural means (like teleportation.) But of course you will reject their testimony because there is "no proof" their tale is true. A similar story is recorded of Phillip the evangelist in the book of Acts.
Why do you think not all africans are christians? No, not because they thought the Jesus story was bad, but an islamist was there earlier than a missionar.
And in the same way YOU won't change your belief anymore, coz you are too much into christianity, an islamist won't change his, because he is too much into the Quoran already. You can't blame them, because Mohammed was the prophet they got used too. How will you convince them, Mohammed is a "fake"?
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