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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 28, 2009 05:01 PM |
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As entertaining as Franciscan missionary teleportation to remote regions of the Amazon is, I'd like to pose a nonrelated question that might bring this thread back beyond the realm of the ridiculous.
Supposing heaven exists, and you arrive there after death - are you capable of sin at that point? And if so, can you be thrown out of heaven? Or are people in heaven "perfect"? And if Heavenites cannot sin, then what happened to free will?
Hmm.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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TheDeath
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posted July 28, 2009 05:04 PM |
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Quote:
As entertaining as Franciscan missionary teleportation to remote regions of the Amazon is, I'd like to pose a nonrelated question that might bring this thread back beyond the realm of the ridiculous.
Supposing heaven exists, and you arrive there after death - are you capable of sin at that point? And if so, can you be thrown out of heaven? Or are people in heaven "perfect"? And if Heavenites cannot sin, then what happened to free will?
Hmm.
Interesting question. I would say, for whatever reason, that your viewpoints at that point become much more "frozen" and can hardly change (I'm not sure, maybe it's because it's a wholly different experience, without time etc). However, Lucifer did fell down, so I don't exclude that possibility.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 28, 2009 05:18 PM |
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I would say, for whatever reason, that your viewpoints at that point become much more "frozen" and can hardly change
Well in that case, I'm not sure I would describe Heaven as a utopia.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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TheDeath
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posted July 28, 2009 05:21 PM |
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Why not? What's wrong with having a different experience and consequently feeling different towards changing your behavior?
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Elodin
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posted July 28, 2009 08:43 PM |
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Quote:
As entertaining as Franciscan missionary teleportation to remote regions of the Amazon is, I'd like to pose a nonrelated question that might bring this thread back beyond the realm of the ridiculous.
Hmm.
Because you know God could not have done such a thing, right? It is one of those all-knowing atheist/agnostic things I guess. 
Yes, believers are perfected when they reach heaven or when Christ returns if they are still in their mortal bodies. And thus incapable of sin. We will know God as fully as he knows us.
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1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
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Kraken
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posted August 11, 2009 02:16 AM |
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@Elodin: Elodin, did you ever think that all the stories in the bible aren't true and God isn't, try thinking outside the box a lil' bit.
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bixie
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posted August 11, 2009 09:41 AM |
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@Elodin: Elodin, did you ever think that all the stories in the bible aren't true and God isn't, try thinking outside the box a lil' bit.
why don't we all think outside the box in the possiblity that they might.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 11, 2009 10:11 AM |
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Lots of people are having done so and doing just that, so I'd say, thinking they MIGHT be true and god MIGHT be qualifies as thinking IN the box, because it's so safely noncommittal.
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Mytical
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posted August 11, 2009 10:23 AM |
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I am staying out of the main discussion for I think it is an excersice in futility. However, I believe the theory that no afterlife exsists is more 'inside the box'. After all, there is no punishment for deeds done, and therefore it is 'easier'. I do not believe that the Christian God is better > more real then Allah. For I don't know, nor do I pretend to know, what is out 'there'.
I believe that man is not the greatest thing in this universe (or rather I seriously hope not), nor the top of 'evolution'. I have no clue as to 'what' might be out there, so I acknowledge that one thing might be as real or true as another. Until I have concrete proof (which may be never) I will keep an open mind. Including that there may not be anything at all after we die.
However I consider myself 'spiritual' and have no addiction to the fact that there MUST be an afterlife and near all powerful (or allpowerful) being. Without evidence to the contrary I only have my personal experiences to go on. Which is enough for me, for now.
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Message received.
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Elodin
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posted August 11, 2009 12:02 PM |
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@Elodin: Elodin, did you ever think that all the stories in the bible aren't true and God isn't, try thinking outside the box a lil' bit.
I passed thorough my unbelief phase long ago. You forget that all Christians used to be non-Christians. I think of atheism as ignoring what is in the box, not as thinking outside the box.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted August 11, 2009 02:27 PM |
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Elodin, I am an Atheist because I think outside the box, I spend a lot of my Time thinking about the Harder questions of Life, I constantly think outside of the box myself. Ernest Hemingway once said: All thinking men are Atheists.
You did not answer my question very good. I was asking what if your God wasn't real, you pretty much said that all Christians were once non-Christians, and that isn't at all real. Think outside the box, and wonder if you really believe in such fairy tales such as Adam and Eve, and Jesus' Super Powers.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 11, 2009 02:48 PM |
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Quote:
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I would say, for whatever reason, that your viewpoints at that point become much more "frozen" and can hardly change
Well in that case, I'm not sure I would describe Heaven as a utopia.
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John says to live above hell.
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Elodin
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posted August 11, 2009 05:14 PM |
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Elodin, I am an Atheist because I think outside the box, I spend a lot of my Time thinking about the Harder questions of Life, I constantly think outside of the box myself. Ernest Hemingway once said: All thinking men are Atheists.
You did not answer my question very good. I was asking what if your God wasn't real, you pretty much said that all Christians were once non-Christians, and that isn't at all real. Think outside the box, and wonder if you really believe in such fairy tales such as Adam and Eve, and Jesus' Super Powers.
Wasn't Hemmingway a drunk? I think he was letting to booze do the talking when he said that.
Sorry, but mythical fairy tales of a self creating universe are preposterous. It takes a lot of faith to believe that when the laws of thermodynamics clearly show that something can't pop into existence from absolute nothing without a cause. And please don't mention a singularity because it too had to have a cause.
If you want to believe fairy tales of magic rocks creating themselves and exploding to produce the universe where pieces of the magic rock begin to live and magically change into other creatures be my guest.
It seems you are not thinking outside the box, only thinking the box that your atheist teachers built around you.
I'm really not sure how I didn't answer your question. I used to be a non-Christian too. But I had an open mind and a heart that wanted to know the truth. When the Spirit of God moved, I responded. I left the denomination of my father even though it meant that I was disowned by my family for a time.
I am filled with the Spirit of God and speak in tongues. I know Jesus lives.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 11, 2009 06:17 PM |
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I don't see a qualitative difference in demanding a creator or cause for the universe and demanding the same for god. God explains nothing, it just moves the problem a level higher.
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Elodin
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posted August 11, 2009 08:10 PM |
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I don't see a qualitative difference in demanding a creator or cause for the universe and demanding the same for god. God explains nothing, it just moves the problem a level higher.
It seems pretty clear to me. God is not matter or energy, he is a Spirit. He is the First Cause. There cannot be an infinite regression of causes.
All things material need a cause. If a painter paints a pictue it is obvious that his existence is not bound by the picture.
The fact is atheists have no explaination for the beginning of the universe (even Dawkins admits this)and theists do. All you can say is "I don't know what the cause is, but it ain't God," which is what religious atheists say.
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TheDeath
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posted August 11, 2009 08:35 PM |
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I don't see a qualitative difference in demanding a creator or cause for the universe and demanding the same for god. God explains nothing, it just moves the problem a level higher.
What do you mean by "God explains nothing"? I mean, the problem isn't on a higher level, because you can't "explain" someone who thinks. When you say explain, you mean 'make sense of the mechanisms'. But who said God has a 'mechanism'?
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JollyJoker
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posted August 11, 2009 09:28 PM |
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Elodin & Death
We have no PROVABLE explanation, since for people like Dawkins - scientists - an explanation must be verifiable, otherwise it's speculation.
I agree that if physical laws state that matter and energy cannot be created out of nothing, then we simply don't have the full picture of the universe.
But there's no reason to grab the black box called god, proclaim the existace of "spirit", neither matter nor eergy, and equip it with the properties of being able to create matter and energy out of itself and not needing a cause to exist.
If we'd we satisfied with speculation I could preset more than one that would explain things without the necessity of god, but speculation is just that and not really worth much.
At this point of humanity's development there is not the slightest reason to assume we should be able to understand or even PERCEIVE the whole of the universe or reality we live in.
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TheDeath
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posted August 11, 2009 09:36 PM |
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Alright since you missed my point I'll ask you to define "explanation".
Is it about mechanisms and "how stuff works" (aka mechanisms)? Then of course God isn't explainable -- He's no mechanism.
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Elodin
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posted August 11, 2009 09:42 PM |
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Elodin & Death
I agree that if physical laws state that matter and energy cannot be created out of nothing, then we simply don't have the full picture of the universe.
That is a cop out. You are saying in faith that you know there is no God and that there is another explaination that lets the universe magically create itself in violation of the laws of thermodynamics. I have no problem with this as long as you admit it is your religious belief, because there is nothing scientific about it.
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But there's no reason to grab the black box called god, proclaim the existace of "spirit", neither matter nor eergy, and equip it with the properties of being able to create matter and energy out of itself and not needing a cause to exist.
I haven't grabbed a black box. God has revealed himself throughout history. I am sorry if you reject his revelation. I didn't and he filled me with his Spirit.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 11, 2009 10:49 PM |
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@ Death
What I mean is that if you want an explanation for why the universe is there (must have been come from something), then "god" just moves that same question to god. In that case ou just have to find a reason why "the universe" needs a cause or explanation, but "god" doesn't.
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Elodin & Death
I agree that if physical laws state that matter and energy cannot be created out of nothing, then we simply don't have the full picture of the universe.
That is a cop out. You are saying in faith that you know there is no God and that there is another explaination that lets the universe magically create itself in violation of the laws of thermodynamics. I have no problem with this as long as you admit it is your religious belief, because there is nothing scientific about it.
That's not correct on more than one level:
1) I never said I KNOW there is no god (I did say I'm pretty sure - know - the god the Bible describes does not exist, but that's not the same thing, by no means)
2) God is no scientific explanation, but just an assumption, since there is no scientific way to explain the properties god would have to have to fulfill the conditions sketched for being a "spirit".
3) I said I can come up with more than one explanation based on science on how the universe is structured without needing god or the big bang. I said as well, that since that's not verifiable it's the same speculation than god.
The point, however, is that there are other explanations possible that do NOT need a "magical" god who "magically" created everything out of nothing, magically not needing a cause, but that are based o science.
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But there's no reason to grab the black box called god, proclaim the existace of "spirit", neither matter nor eergy, and equip it with the properties of being able to create matter and energy out of itself and not needing a cause to exist.
I haven't grabbed a black box. God has revealed himself throughout history. I am sorry if you reject his revelation. I didn't and he filled me with his Spirit.
"Black Box" s a specific term that describes something whose mechanism is unknown - you see only the result, but not the "how". Tht is god, because you are not able to explain the natire of god in a scientific way. We "know" only some properties (defined out of necessity), but not more.
Personal revelations don't help, since they are verifiable as well.
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