|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:03 PM |
|
|
If my instinct told me to eat all the food in a place when it is scarce and I should distribute it among several people, trust me, that IS a choice I can do and I would ignore my instinct even if it meant I would suffer a bit of hunger (but at least not starve the others). Saying "it was instinct" makes about as much sense as saying to a judge "my instinct/voices in my head told me to kill him".
Even if that were true, so what? You can change it, so you have a choice.
Instinct doesn't always tell us good things.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:08 PM |
|
Edited by angelito at 22:09, 27 Jul 2009.
|
Quote:
Quote:
@ Elodin
Your answer is not quite sufficent. As i wrote: What's about those people on earth who didn't get a chance to get knowledge of Jesus at all? He would have been able to travel around all continents (all mighty) and spread his words all over there. But he didn't.
Doesn't sound "very fair"....
You don't have to "logically" choose to your own best interest (I mean, avoid Hell and all that), you have to choose it honestly from your own self/mentality/heart. Anything else is "fake" thoughts.
You need to meet Jesus to form logical conclusions, but you DO NOT need to meet anyone to have your own conclusions from your heart (sorry for expression but you know what I mean).
Interesting point someone made about "an army". Suppose there are two armies, A and B, and of course each have their own viewpoints (let's not say communism vs capitalism because it would escalate into another subject).
Now, you, by heart, want to be in B, as you agree with most viewpoints there. So you do, and then you find out B are cruel and torture their own men or whatever. Boomer.
now you somehow get teleported back in time to choose again. By heart you still would like B as you hate A's viewpoints (for instance), but now you know B are cruel, so what's it gonna be?
Logic is irrelevant. If you want A simply because you don't like B's cruelty on you, I'm sorry but A aren't fools to take you in if you're not honest about being with them and fighting for their (peaceful) viewpoints. They won't take you in.
The outcome is the same, whether you want to avoid the "Hell" or not, as long as from the heart you don't want it (not out of being afraid for your skin or best interest to not suffer), you're not gonna get away from it.
How does this answer my question at all????
I asked about those who do not have any knowledge about Jesus..so they also do not have any knowledge about the Ten Commandments...so they also do not know what is a sin and what not.
How will THOSE people be judged? They can't be judged by those Ten Commandments, cause they don't know them at all.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:09 PM |
|
|
Thanks, Corribus. Mvass as well.
I think, there's a point when words make no sense anymore. Death is yet again advertising his personal religion again: you'll get a choice after death, like, could you honestly believe in this Jesus guy or not? And actually it's easy to say yes and all, and after you have moved in and tasted bliss...
I mean, why does Death sound like he tries to advertise something really fine that comes with a big truckload of goo - a couple million dollars combined with the best drug in the world, but you have to close your eyes before what's happening. Can't be so bad, can it? May taste like blood'n'bile the first minute, ah, but we adapt.
It's still beyond my how someone can call this god loving, though.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:11 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I think you'll kinda meet him when you're dead
But when you're dead, it's too late. 
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:17 PM |
|
|
Quote:
How does this answer my question at all????
I asked about those who do not have any knowledge about Jesus..so they also do not have any knowledge about the Ten Commandments...so they also do not know what is a sin and what not.
How will THOSE people be judged? They can't be judged by those Ten Commandments, cause they don't know them at all.
Just because you don't know the rules doesn't mean you must break them. Just because, in a society, there's no "you can't kill" rule, doesn't mean EVERYONE will be a criminal.
@JJ: I would appreciate if you would keep your "business" analogies to yourself, such as "advertising", and not include my posts with that tag because it's clear you have no idea what I'm talking about or take an effort to do it.
Not to mention I gave you a challenge to love all prisoners and let them all roam free in society (heaven), but somehow I don't think you are in a position to judge God if you don't do even that. It's easy to say "if I were God I would let everyone in Heaven" but just try to do that in real life if you think you're so loving and see how it goes.
Now, as for Jesus, I pretty much think you will meet him when you die. I'm not sure how Catholic church goes but in orthodox classes here when I was younger there was a story about exiled men on an island and a preacher trying to teach them the Bible and sorts, but they were dumb and forgot it. Then when he left and was about to go sail some other place, they chased him saying they forgot the Ten Commandments and wanted him to tell them again (he was prepared to leave), and he saw an angel or some light behind them and said "no need my brothers!" or something like that.
I'm no Bible digger and not sure if this is even in the Bible (I mean orthodox version), but if you would stop with your business and profit-oriented analogies you could see it better and make some sense out of it.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Just because you don't know the rules doesn't mean you must break them. Just because, in a society, there's no "you can't kill" rule, doesn't mean EVERYONE will be a criminal.
Just lol....
Guess I will rather go playing tennis with Stephen Hawking than continuing that discussion....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:23 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 22:27, 27 Jul 2009.
|
@Death
Whoa, whoa - stop right there, Mr. Strawman. That's not what I said, I don't think there's any stipulation about quantity in the Bible when it comes to illicit sex. It's not "lust after X number of people and then it's a sin". It's "lust after one person and it's the same thing as having committed adultery with them". No, seriously, that's literally what is said - Matthew 5:28.
You can't avoid feeling hunger any more than you can avoid feeling sexual attraction. It's chemical. (And ironically, it's the way God supposedly made us - so really, that lust is a sin is, if you think of it, a form of entrapment!). It's not a matter of choice. Acting on that sexual attraction is a choice; feeling it is not. I'm not talking about the action. I'm talking about the thought itself. Punishment of action I can at least understand - even if the rules are arbitrary and in many cases rather silly. Punishment of THOUGHT is unfair and, might I point out, fascist.
All these people for countless generations have been repenting over something that is essentially out of their control. "Oh Father, I have sinned - I had a bad sexual thought about my neighbor's sexy wife." "Son, that's ok, God forgives you - do 20 hail marys and donate 50 dollars and all will be well." "Yes Father, I feel so guilty." But why does the man feel guilty? Because God gave his neighbor nice breasts and God also gave the man these little chemicals called hormones that flow through his blood with every heartbeat in response to seeing these breasts that cause all sorts of chemical reactions to occur in the brain and... other organs? I mean, a person doesn't consider it a choice when the same types of molecules are responsible for making him feel hungry after a few hours without a meal, does he? Does a woman feel it is a choice when the same type of hormones cause her to ovulate every month? We don't consider any of the THOUSANDS of bodily processes that are stimulated by chemical hormone reception in our bodies to be choices, so why have attraction and lust become choices to feel guilty about?
Rhetorical question. Answer is that the Church very early on figured out how to turn sexual biochemistry into a means of thought control. Hello, Big Brother.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:25 PM |
|
|
What don't you seem to understand? I already said you can repent if you're honest and want to avoid it in future, until you can do so without needing to repent. It's not an "X" amount at all. You're at least TRYING.
And saying that we are designed that way is retarded, morally speaking. We are designed also selfish (and this not even with religion in mind), doesn't mean we have to be.
In fact, the fact that we resist these and change ourselves PROVES that we are worthy of willpower.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:28 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Just lol....
Guess I will rather go playing tennis with Stephen Hawking than continuing that discussion....
hmm I wouldn't actually say "lol" to your post because I don't even get the point of it, funny or otherwise.
I used one of the commandments as example (don't kill). Of course, your post can be applied to any response. You don't even need to read it, just quote a random part and copy-paste that response.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:30 PM |
|
|
Angelito, is it ok, if I call Death's posts ridiculous undecipherable at this point, leave it at that and join the discussion with Mr. Hawking? I have actually no idea anymore what Death is trying to communicate - in any thread.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:34 PM |
|
|
and yet you still don't take the challenge.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:36 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Angelito, is it ok, if I call Death's posts ridiculous undecipherable at this point, leave it at that and join the discussion with Mr. Hawking? I have actually no idea anymore what Death is trying to communicate - in any thread.
I am pretty sure now, TheDeath is an account of at least 5 different people. It is NOT possible one human being can post so much snow
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:37 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 22:38, 27 Jul 2009.
|
Can I ask, what was the point of such post, mr. maturity?
provocation? or on topic?
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:40 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 22:44, 27 Jul 2009.
|
@Death
Quote:
What don't you seem to understand? I already said you can repent if you're honest and want to avoid it in future, until you can do so without needing to repent. It's not an "X" amount at all. You're at least TRYING.
You're missing the point, Deathboy. I'll put it in bold so you don't miss it, ok?
YOU CANNOT REPENT FOR SOMETHING THAT IS NOT A CHOICE.
What, are you going to tell God, I'm sorry, I'll try better next time? But, to quote Yoda, "There is no try!" TRY implies a choice. If there's no choice, there is no try! You might say to God "I'm sorry I lusted over that hot woman, next time I'll be better!" But the next time you see a hot woman walking down the street, you're gonna lust because you don't have a damn choice. It's biochemical.
It's sort of like if falling due to gravity was a sin, and you walk off a wall, and fall to the ground and God says, "HOW DARE YOU FALL! THAT IS AGAINST MY LAW!" and you say "So sorry, Lord, I will try better next time." And next time you're up on a wall, how exactly do you plan on trying to not fall down when you walk over the edge?
Sure, if a hot woman walks by, you can turn your eyes, but the damage is already done. After all, why are you turning away? Because you know that sexual attraction is not a choice. If you look, even inadvertently, you're going to lust. Hot woman --> Sexual attraction. Causation.
Quote:
We are designed also selfish (and this not even with religion in mind), doesn't mean we have to be.
You're still not following. You're not distinguishing between THOUGHT and ACTION. We are designed to have a sexual response to an attractive member of the opposite sex. Sure, acting on that urge is a sin. But the mere thought is also a sin, acting or not. You cannot choose to not have sexual urges. You can choose not to act upon them. Get it?
And beyond that, I've never seen a satisfactory explanation for why feeling attracted to a good lucking woman is hell-worthy, or why I should be expected to feel guilty about it, nevermind the fact that it isn't a choice to begin with. Does God ever explain why lust is so bad? Of course not; we're just expected to obey and have no intelligent thoughts on the matter at all. It's like the parent that says to their kid "Don't you cross that street or I'll send you to your bedroom!" and when the kid asks why, the parent just says "Because I said so. Don't ask questions!" Wouldn't it be better for the child, in the long run, if the parent said, "Child, you shouldn't cross the street because you may be flattened by a speeding car."
A rule has no meaning unless you have a choice to obey it, and it has even less meaning if you don't understand why it's important.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:45 PM |
|
|
Quote:
YOU CANNOT REPENT FOR SOMETHING THAT IS NOT A CHOICE.
You don't repent on the urges. You repent on your choice to suppress them. You have a choice for that. You repent like this "I'm sorry for being unable to suppress them" for instance. That's the choice. That's what you repent for. For being a slave to your instincts, for instance.7
Quote:
And beyond that, I've never seen a satisfactory explanation for why feeling attracted to a good lucking woman is hell-worthy, or why I should be expected to feel guilty about it, nevermind the fact that it isn't a choice to begin with. Does God ever explain why lust is so bad? Of course not; we're just expected to obey and have no intelligent thoughts on the matter at all. It's like the parent that says to their kid "Don't you cross that street or I'll send you to your bedroom!" and when the kid asks why, the parent just says "Because I said so. Don't ask questions!"
I don't know, how would I know about it? There are some things that God sees from a different perspective, obviously.
Actually, I have my own theory (would be off topic though) about why this may just be considered a sin. However I'm not going to say I have God's perspective on it.
Quote:
A rule has no meaning unless you have a choice to obey it, and it has even less meaning if you don't understand why it's important.
You have a choice to disobey it. But don't expect the consequences to be the same.
Like we have a choice to go on a killing rampage, but that doesn't mean we won't get different consequences (jail time). Choices aren't without consequences. 
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:46 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Can I ask, what was the point of such post, mr. maturity?
provocation? or on topic?
On topic....because I quoted someone and replied to his post
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:55 PM |
|
|
@Death
Quote:
You repent like this "I'm sorry for being unable to suppress them" for instance.
So you are repenting for your inability to change lead into gold. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me, especially because God was the one who supposedly gave you this biochemistry in the first place. So what's next, repenting because you didn't stop the Challenger disaster?
It's amazing how guilt is the ultimate tool of manipulation: good enough for family members, friends, enemies... even good enough for God.
Quote:
I don't know, how would I know about it? There are some things that God sees from a different perspective, obviously.
Right, my favorite "God works in mysterious ways" nonanswer.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 10:58 PM |
|
|
Hey I don't like you using the "impossible" argument when it's totally possible if you look around. Of course, those not willing will say it's impossible also.
Here's a (not mine) theory (off topic, but here goes): what if God put us these bodies so we can test our will (i.e how far we can go with it)?
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 11:03 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 23:04, 27 Jul 2009.
|
@Death
Quote:
Here's a (not mine) theory (off topic, but here goes): what if God put us these bodies so we can test our will (i.e how far we can go with it)?
So God subjects humans to a Kobayashi Maru, and then punishes them with eternal damnation if they don't apologize for their inevitable failure. Yeah, that's a religion I'd sign up for. [/sarcasm]
|
|
Aleksandr
Hired Hero
|
|
posted July 27, 2009 11:03 PM |
|
|
Quote:
@Death
Quote:
You repent like this "I'm sorry for being unable to suppress them" for instance.
So you are repenting for your inability to change lead into gold...
No. And you either cannot read or you just troll.
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
