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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 08:50 PM |
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If I remember that story, God didn't WANT to sacrifice his son, and he didn't.
But FIRST he gave him the order to do so! And THAT's the point.
It was more along the lines of a philosophical question "how far can you go?", like we have on this forum in the "Difficult Questions" thread by Mythical. He never intended to sacrifice the son.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 24, 2009 09:38 PM |
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Now we are at option 1: Hell is not real, but a state of mind. Elodin (and the current Catholic part of Christianity) sees that very different
If you on't believe in hell and the devil - what are you arguing with me? You obviously have your own version of Christian belief.
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 09:42 PM |
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That was Doomforge's idea, not mine, I did mention that. I said that both resemble the "absence of God". I do believe in Hell, but somewhere in between that and Doomforge's idea (more towards Hell though).
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JollyJoker
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posted July 24, 2009 09:57 PM |
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I want a clear statement. Do you believe that sinners outside of god will suffer eternally in hell under Satan? Do you think your parents would deliver you into the hands of such a guy eternally, for being disobedient? Would you do it with your children if they were disobedient? Would you have be okay with beloved people of you ending in hell because they were disobedient without ever having a chance to get saved, without anyone being able to do something for them?
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 10:03 PM |
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I want a clear statement. Do you believe that sinners outside of god will suffer eternally in hell under Satan?
Yes, although "suffer" isn't the "burning" stuff since it is philsophically impossible to burn without flesh.
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Do you think your parents would deliver you into the hands of such a guy eternally, for being disobedient? Would you do it with your children if they were disobedient?
What do you want him to do with them? It's obvious that at that point they show no signs of HONESTLY going back (if anything they will just do it because they're afraid of Hell which is NOT acceptable in Heaven, honesty above all else).
You either want to be with God or you don't. Of course you can't possibly want to be with God while at the same time hating his viewpoint (like sins).
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Would you have be okay with beloved people of you ending in hell because they were disobedient without ever having a chance to get saved, without anyone being able to do something for them?
Are you kidding me? This whole thread is one of the millions of "chances" to be "saved" even if you don't believe in God. Note that to be saved you don't exactly have to even believe in God, as long as you are sorry for your sins and you can easily accept Jesus as savior (of course if you sin, you can't accept him honestly at all, and honesty is important, not words) it should be no problem even if you don't believe in God but somehow feel.
Well you asked for my opinion. 
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JollyJoker
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posted July 24, 2009 10:44 PM |
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Are YOU kidding ME?
First thing is, you don't know the bible. Jesus says, we're resurrected in the flesh. Ask Elodin if you don't believe me. Yes, we CAN burn in hell.
And you didn't answer the rest. It was yes or no; what's so difficult? Deal not ok?
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 10:55 PM |
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I'm not sure about being resurrected in flesh NOW, I thought that was supposed at the revelation/apocalypse/whatever it is called.
As for your questions I thought it was pretty obvious. For the second, it's Yes, for the last it's No, because they had a lot of "chances" to be "saved". Meaning they had time to build their attitudes and viewpoints.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 24, 2009 11:14 PM |
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In that case I hope you'll get what you bargained for.
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TheDeath
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posted July 24, 2009 11:34 PM |
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In that case I hope you'll get what you bargained for.
What's the alternative?
That I change my viewpoint(s) instantly?
Impossible and you know that.
I'm talking "honesty" here, not mumbo jumbo heart-breaking speeches.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 25, 2009 10:23 AM |
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Well, I don't think, there's much left to talk. I thought, this wasn't so much a question of opinion than of feeling.
If you don't feel enough for any one person in the world, so that the idea that person might be damned to eternal hell for being unrepentently disobedient to God might horrify you so much, that you'd try to sway a being that supposedly IS love, NOT to punish that person, that you'd try to save that person from that fate, and that you'd find the knowledge of that person suffering for all eternity intolerable, then I can't help it.
And it's - in my humble opinion - a property of being human that we can put us in the shoes of others, so once you HAD a person you'd feel strongly for, you'd be able to imagine that same feeling with everyone else.
This property, by the way, is missing with serial killers. They are unable to put themselves into the positions of others - they don't feel with anyone and of course not with their victims either.
Remember, Death. God doesn't want you to be good. God wants you to be obedient.
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TheDeath
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posted July 25, 2009 05:30 PM |
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No my point is why would they receive another change later, you think it would change their behavior? How many chances before their behavior and viewpoints are set in stone? Where exactly do you want the line drawn when they can "no longer be saved", which translates "no longer able to change their viewpoints to obey God" for instance.
That's what repent does, usually, if you are honest about it (not lying), you're trying to change your viewpoint/behavior, so we already have that.
But where's the line? I think for most people this life is enough to have stabilized their viewpoints.
you have to change deep inside when you repent, not just speak out words. (aka truly MEAN it)
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Remember, Death. God doesn't want you to be good. God wants you to be obedient.
Doesn't any parent want that? If you are obedient, you are also good, at least according to any parent. When a parent wants good kids, he wants them obedient. There isn't much of a difference between the two, of course, assuming the parent is "superior" (which isn't always the case with humans).
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posted July 25, 2009 05:32 PM |
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God doesn't want you to be good. God wants you to be obedient.
They are one and the same, for God, for Christians.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 25, 2009 07:36 PM |
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Which is the problem.
Death, no, parents don't want kids to obey, they want them to grow up. Obeying won't make you a grown-up, it will make you obedient. And what are you talking about a line after which someone can't be saved anymore? Why would there any such line? Why would anyone be unsavable?
I thought we were taling about GOD, you know? GODLY LOVE. You want to tell me the limit of godly love is when a guy for the life of it can't really be sorry for leading a happy life, hurting no one... If a MOTHER can forgive her son being gay - why can't god, if he is oh so loving?
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TheDeath
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posted July 25, 2009 08:05 PM |
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Death, no, parents don't want kids to obey, they want them to grow up. Obeying won't make you a grown-up, it will make you obedient. And what are you talking about a line after which someone can't be saved anymore? Why would there any such line? Why would anyone be unsavable?
You have a problem understanding this "saving" thing. I've already said it before in laymen terms because it seems reasonable and long definitions are ignored (and I don't blame you for that, my english isn't perfect either). Heaven is a non-sin-only club.
By non-sin-only it doesn't just mean that no one sins there. It means no one EVEN THINKS about daring to do a sin. It means that they AGREE with that club's viewpoints. That's why they are there, not for "saving". You think that a sinful life can also lead to happiness and that's where you're wrong. Heaven is only that "blissful" place as described because of that reason, not magically.
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I thought we were taling about GOD, you know? GODLY LOVE. You want to tell me the limit of godly love is when a guy for the life of it can't really be sorry for leading a happy life, hurting no one... If a MOTHER can forgive her son being gay - why can't god, if he is oh so loving?
At that point, it is IMHO impossible to change your views so you'll never fit "in the club" anyway. You have to change yourself not just stop sinning, but also think of it as genuinely bad or whatever.
No one is perfect of course but someone who enjoyed sins for all his life (especially those like psycho murders) will be impossible to change.
Therefore "unsaveable".
And God is not just loving but also just. Your love is blind, would you also let a murderer in Heaven to "give him another chance"? Someone who ENJOYS murder and would kill if he knew he would get away?
People like that belong to Earth or Hell, no need to filth up Heaven with their stink. (of course, it also depends how far you go with a sin, it's not black and white)
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JollyJoker
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posted July 25, 2009 08:39 PM |
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I have to say I find that last post pretty disgusting. Although, I'm not that surprised that you would like a god that was as misanthropic as you, and I'm not surprised that your viewpoints are not rooted in the bible. You can live a sinful life as much as you want if you repent and believe in Jesus in the end; you could be the worst serial killer of all times, if you'd honestly repent your deeds - for example because a good therapist would help you understand what you did - you could still enter that "club" of yours.
Unlike a gay who would not repent.
Wrong or right, that discussion has just ended for me. It's fine that god and you are agreeing so fine and you can tell exactly why god does what, who will enter his fine club and why and that god does have a sensible nose.
Have a nice rest of your life.
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TheDeath
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posted July 25, 2009 08:57 PM |
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What do you want Heaven to be like? Give me a simple answer. A copy of Earth?
That's not Heaven, sorry. I know I live in a miserable world right now. I wouldn't want that to be the ultimate blissful place 
And if a serial killer is indeed sorry for his sins, meaning he is AGAINST them and that his viewpoints towards killing has changed, of course he is gonna get in Heaven -- after all his viewpoints are away from sin, so he fits in the club perfectly. Why not?
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JollyJoker
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posted July 25, 2009 09:35 PM |
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Death, I don't care about heaven and god's personal club of yessayers. It's HELL I care about and a supposingly loving god who. allows such a place. Isn't that clear now?
I seem to enjoy writing dialogues these last weeks, here's your encounter with god as a last farewell of me.
"Ah, Heaven, eternal bliss. Finally. I'll leave that miserable place with it's miserable people behind."
"I can't let you in."
"Umm, what? Why not? I did everything right, didn't I? I believed, I didn't sin, I abhor sex for sex's sake, I..."
"You judged my fine creation."
"Umm, uh, well, no, I..."
"Not only that. You tried to be me."
"WHAT? No, please, you must be mistaken, I never..."
"Didn't you devote your whole life into developing so-called artificial intelligence?"
"Well, yes, sure, but..."
"Why did you do it, you, who called himself TheDeath?"
"I... well, I... curiosity, I think... I wanted to see whether it was possible to do it..."
"Playing god, wasn't it?"
"Nono, not at all, it was... I just... I thougt, that human intelligence wasn't good, you know, too greedy and selfish and sinful and I wanted to... wanted to create, err.. no, I...
"That doesn't sound like a respectful attitide towards my fine creation. I see, that you not only judged my creation as lacking, you aspired to make it better."
"I... but, no I... I just tried to... to expand... to, err, to add a wee bit due to my humble abilities, I...
"Do you repent?"
"Pardon?"
"DO YOU REPENT?"
"What? What do I repent? That I worked to... yes, I repent, I repent everything... no, wait, that wasn't honest, I have to concentrate. A question, just a question... I mean, you are sending so many into damnation, so I thought you were not pleased with humanity and all, so I thought you wouldn't mind if I tried..."
"It's MY creation and it's not your place to judge it. That's mine and mine alone. That you should have known. So, DO YOU REPENT?"
Now, you may find that rather ridiculous, but what do you think a happy gay will say at the gates of heaven?
And with that I'll leave you to your dreams ogf eternal bliss free of the stink of the sin of disobeying god.
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TheDeath
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posted July 25, 2009 09:41 PM |
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Well that doesn't sound like me because I would start and re-think the whole thing over again. If I do realize what I've done I would probably feel bad. That in itself (guilt) is worse than a few of Hell.
As for Hell, well, if you don't want to stay with God, where would you want to end up? Nowhere? (not sure if that's an option)
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JollyJoker
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posted July 25, 2009 09:52 PM |
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TheDeath
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posted July 25, 2009 09:54 PM |
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You would rather be non-existent than in torment?
I know people, even atheists, who may disagree with you.
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