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TheDeath
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posted July 08, 2007 08:17 PM |
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There's something I've been wondering about for a long time. Why do religious people look upon atheistm (or even other beliefs) as something wrong, or something to be feared?
Well actually it's exactly the opposite. Atheists usually claim religious people are a disease or sick or blabla... 
but of course, it's not really a good idea to say "all atheists are that way" or "all theists are that way" just because one of them said that. It's foolish to say people A equals people B, if both are atheists or theists. 
I know there are some extreme theists and atheists  that doesn't mean all of them are that way
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mvassilev
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posted July 08, 2007 11:32 PM |
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Well, I don't really consider religion a disease. Plenty of religious people are smart and nice. Sometimes religion prevents bad things from happening. But it inhibits progress and causes suffering as well.
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TheDeath
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posted July 08, 2007 11:37 PM |
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But it inhibits progress and causes suffering as well.
Well if progress means kill a lot of creatures or destroying planets/wasting etc.. then I'm not sure if it's 100% a good thing on the overall view of things (instead of only yourself/greed). You may argue that it's what's best for you, but keep in mind doing something "the right way" or "good" doesn't mean for you to feel good. With every power there is responsibility. When you take the power and abuse it, well I don't know how to say it
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angelito
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posted July 09, 2007 12:21 AM |
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Religion is nothing bad of course. Fanatism is what causes all the "quarrel"
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mvassilev
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posted July 09, 2007 01:18 AM |
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You may argue that it's what's best for you, but keep in mind doing something "the right way" or "good" doesn't mean for you to feel good.
Because the "right way" is waht makes you feel good, in a loose sense.
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With every power there is responsibility. When you take the power and abuse it, well I don't know how to say it
Abuse is relative.
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Istari
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posted July 09, 2007 03:37 PM |
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There's something I've been wondering about for a long time. Why do religious people look upon atheistm (or even other beliefs) as something wrong, or something to be feared?
I am a Christian, and I have also seen other Christians fearing atheists. It is likely that they fear what they don't understand. They may also be shaky in their faith and fear that science will disprove Christianity. As humans, we like other people to do what we do, it somehow validates our actions/ beliefs. Some of what you interpret as fear though, may not be fear as much as concern (just not being communicated well). A compassionate Christian will want other people to have a relationship with Christ so they will go to heaven. Since Christians believe that all people live forever (either Heaven or Hell), they want all people choose Heaven.
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Istari
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posted July 09, 2007 03:53 PM |
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I agree with you here, everybody has the right to voice their opinions and beliefs, but they don't have any right to impose it on anyone else, i really hate it when someone says i'm going to hell because i don't believe in his/her religion
Sorry, my last post went there. Think about this though. If I am right... everyone lives forever in either Heaven or Hell (depending on if you have accepted Christ's forgiveness or not), I would be a horrible person to not let other's know. I try not to be harsh or throw it in people's face. I know from a non-believing stand point, its the last thing you want to hear. I do not force it on anyone, but to hide that Truth would be even worse of me.
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Doomforge
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posted July 09, 2007 04:15 PM |
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I am a Christian, and I have also seen other Christians fearing atheists. It is likely that they fear what they don't understand. They may also be shaky in their faith and fear that science will disprove Christianity. As humans, we like other people to do what we do, it somehow validates our actions/ beliefs. Some of what you interpret as fear though, may not be fear as much as concern (just not being communicated well). A compassionate Christian will want other people to have a relationship with Christ so they will go to heaven. Since Christians believe that all people live forever (either Heaven or Hell), they want all people choose Heaven.
umm..are you sure, Istari? As a christian myself, I can not confirm that. yes, many Christians say that (catholics, mainly..), but according to Bible, people will either be redeemed, or not, in other words, they will live, or they will remain dead forever (as much as atheists claim that all people will  ). Hell.. endless torments.. naah, middle-ages propaganda. God isn't some kind of sadistic psycho.. saying that he would accuse people to endless torments.. is pointless. And, that myth actually makes many ppl angry about God's sense of justice. No wonder so many ppl are atheists.
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Istari
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posted July 09, 2007 04:33 PM |
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umm..are you sure, Istari? As a christian myself, I can not confirm that. yes, many Christians say that (catholics, mainly..), but according to Bible, people will either be redeemed, or not, in other words, they will live, or they will remain dead forever (as much as atheists claim that all people will ). Hell.. endless torments.. naah, middle-ages propaganda.
Where in the Bible does it say that?
Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 23:15 (NIV)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:33 (NIV)
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
These verses are taken out of context so don't make any larger interpretations without first learning that context. It does seem like the Bible speaks of Hell very literally though.
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Doomforge
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posted July 09, 2007 05:38 PM |
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But where's the endless torment part, eh? Hell = eternal death, the first quote you gave pretty much confirms that. If I have some time, I will find more necessary parts for you, if you wish.
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Garbax
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posted July 09, 2007 07:24 PM |
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Edited by Garbax at 19:36, 09 Jul 2007.
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I agree with you here, everybody has the right to voice their opinions and beliefs, but they don't have any right to impose it on anyone else, i really hate it when someone says i'm going to hell because i don't believe in his/her religion
Sorry, my last post went there. Think about this though. If I am right... everyone lives forever in either Heaven or Hell (depending on if you have accepted Christ's forgiveness or not), I would be a horrible person to not let other's know. I try not to be harsh or throw it in people's face. I know from a non-believing stand point, its the last thing you want to hear. I do not force it on anyone, but to hide that Truth would be even worse of me.
It's okay to voice your opinion and preach it, it's a human right to have freedom of expression and thought, what i don't like is that many a fanatic tries to force everybody into believing in either this or that God and refuses to acknowledge anyone who has a different beliefs as a person or an equal, that kind of fanatism is what makes me sick.
BTW, i was in your position not to long ago, Istari, So i understand why you preach the Word of God, keep doing it if that's what you believe in.
"I may not believe in what you say or preach, but i will defend your right to voice your opinion", i believe that's what Voltaire said once, i'm not sure tho.
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Istari
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posted July 09, 2007 08:42 PM |
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"I may not believe in what you say or preach, but i will defend your right to voice your opinion", i believe that's what Voltaire said once, i'm not sure tho.
Thanks, this kind of respect makes conversations like these much more constructive.
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Garbax
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posted July 09, 2007 08:59 PM |
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"I may not believe in what you say or preach, but i will defend your right to voice your opinion", i believe that's what Voltaire said once, i'm not sure tho.
Thanks, this kind of respect makes conversations like these much more constructive.
You're welcome , we are just voicing our opinions and defending what we believe in, so there is no need to get personal.
I've always lived on a "Live and let others live as they please" philosophy, so i try to respect and understand all points of view, which should be the basis of any communication.
BTW, Where is TitaniumAlloy???
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Istari
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posted July 09, 2007 09:04 PM |
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But where's the endless torment part, eh? Hell = eternal death, the first quote you gave pretty much confirms that. If I have some time, I will find more necessary parts for you, if you wish.
I feel a little odd, describing the horribleness of Hell.. I'm not really a fire an brimstone kind of guy. But for the sake of accurate Biblical understanding let me show a little more where my views come from. To keep this short and easier to read, I won't describe the context (which we can discuss if you disagree with these references, mostly parables).
Matthew 8:12 (NIV)
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:41-42 (NIV)
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13 (NIV)
13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
I would think it is hard to describe a spiritual place. There are several other desriptions of Hell in the Bible, again mostly in parable form. It does seem pretty clear an consistent that it is a place of pain. It would be much nicer to discount there being a literal Hell, but that can't be done without discounting large amounts of the Bible. I believe the Bible, even in places where I'd like not to believe it. The Truth doesn't change with my preferences.
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Doomforge
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posted July 09, 2007 09:42 PM |
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It still doesn't look like endless torment to me. If I recall correctly, there is a lot of references to "eternal death" but not "endless torments" at Apocalypse.
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Istari
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posted July 09, 2007 09:51 PM |
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but according to Bible, people will either be redeemed, or not, in other words, they will live, or they will remain dead forever (as much as atheists claim that all people will).
weeping and gnashing of teeth just doesn't sound like the same thing as an atheist concept of death (non-existence).
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Istari
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posted July 09, 2007 10:00 PM |
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2 Thessalonians 1:8-10
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
Here's a reference with the word everlasting, if that is what you are looking for.
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Doomforge
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posted July 09, 2007 10:32 PM |
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everlasting destruction. I understand that as destruction that last forever, in other words, they will be destroyed forever. Destruction =/= torment. Don't forget that the particular words vary between translations. In my bible, it can be something a bit different.
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Istari
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posted July 09, 2007 10:50 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 22:51, 09 Jul 2007.
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everlasting destruction. I understand that as destruction that last forever, in other words, they will be destroyed forever. Destruction =/= torment. Don't forget that the particular words vary between translations. In my bible, it can be something a bit different.
I don't understand your point. I'm not trying to create conflict, I was just responding to your previous post:
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but according to Bible, people will either be redeemed, or not, in other words, they will live, or they will remain dead forever (as much as atheists claim that all people will).
You are teasing apart words like "eternal" and "torment." I'm not sure where that gets us. I am just saying that as unfortunate as it may be, the Bible speaks of Hell as a literal place that is unpleasant to be in.
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mvassilev
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posted July 10, 2007 02:02 AM |
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All of this assumes that the Bible is true. And that is yet to be proved.
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