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angelito
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posted July 10, 2007 05:25 PM |
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Give me one good reason why someone wouldn't be able to live 900 years?
Maybe just because our cells become older and "get out of order"?
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Shadey
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posted July 10, 2007 05:31 PM |
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Give me one good reason why someone wouldn't be able to live 900 years?
Maybe just because our cells become older and "get out of order"?
Do you know why they get older and out of order?
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mvassilev
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posted July 10, 2007 05:32 PM |
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I said it before : it's a matter of faith. And you say I don't get the point?  Than read my last post again.. There is no "proof" because it's not a scientific issue. There is no proof because.. just because. Yes, there ain't none that would sound convincing enough. Does that satisfy you? Oh, ok, we're just a bunch of loonatics believeing in flying ressurecting beard-man. Ok, have it your way if that's what you wish to hear. 
Well, if it's like that, then of course I wouldn't believe in flying ressurecting beard-man.
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Just a simple example. You can try to prove that leptons exist, if you find dark matter too hard.
Go to Wikipedia.
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If you say you don't know, you deny your own faith. Sorry, no matter how bizzare this may sound, we theists have to say it that way. As long as our faith is strong, we will. I hope you understand that
But didn't someone in this thread earlier say that faith is believing in something you don't know?
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Istari
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posted July 10, 2007 05:32 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 17:33, 10 Jul 2007.
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Anything that is not observable is not a nail. Your hammer just isn't going to do the trick.
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That's a personal theory of yourself I guess.
Your response has all the fun of discrediting my statement with none of the burden of actually addressing it. Does science apply to that which is not observable?
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I never said: "I KNOW god doesn't exist". My intelligence/knowledge is just not developped well enough to be able to have a 100% prooven opinion about that. With all the facts and experience I have made in my life so far, I can say: "I DOUBT anything like god exists, therefor I don't wanna waste my time with such things".
My first point is important because if the "facts and experience" that you are using to make your decision that you doubt god exists is based on the scientific method, than of course you will come to the wrong conclusion. Science can apply to what is observable, even in the realm of Christianity. For example, science can apply to the historical accuracy of scripture (much like we would study the Iliad) but it cannot answer the question "is the Bible divinely inspired?" The real question is "what method of gaining insight does apply to that which is not observable. Faith issues can be tested. Responsible Christians don't believe everything they are told. There were many false teachers in the time of Christ (and today) and the Church has had to discern false doctine from the Truth. That is why Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22: Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
We are still at somewhat on an impass though. You do not know how to "test everything." This process needs to trained, not just taught. Paul understood this dilemna and wrote in Romans 10:14,17:
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. ("the word of Christ" is synonymous with the Bible). So my suggestion for understanding spiritual issues, is start by reading the Bible. I would recommend reading Matthew (the story of Jesus), than moving to Acts (focusing on the early Church and the Holy Spirit), than Romans (great insight and explanations). Not everyone is interested in exploring the world of the unseen. If you are, don't rely on science (it's just not capable of doing it) try reading the Bible and see what happens. You may gain insight you didn't expect to gain.
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angelito
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posted July 10, 2007 05:36 PM |
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Actually I understand you well. too many discussions with atheists not to understand another one. You always ask the same questions. You always say sb does not get your point. So it does not surprise me you say that.
No you do not. Otherwise you wouldn't say things like "You can't compare Potter and the bible". This statement shows pretty good, you did NOT understand.
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I am asking for ONE (1, uno, ein, une,...) single proof of a religous theory. Name one...I could give ya hundreds of prooven scientific theories, while you can not name ONE out of the bible.
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I said it before : it's a matter of faith.
Typical answer. "I don't know what to say, therefor I say "it is faith"..."it is just a metaphor". What has "faith" to do with "knowledge"??
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There is no "proof" because it's not a scientific issue.
Everything we do is a chemical reaction, therefor it IS a scientific issue. And what has "proof" to do with science? You proof someone is guilty or non guilty at the court. This has nothing to do with science. Don't mix up 2 things.
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There is no proof because.. just because. Yes, there ain't none that would sound convincing enough. Does that satisfy you? Oh, ok, we're just a bunch of loonatics believeing in flying ressurecting beard-man. Ok, have it your way if that's what you wish to hear.
You even can't explain WHY and WHAT makes u believing in god.
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Just a simple example. You can try to prove that leptons exist, if you find dark matter too hard.
Don't you think it's getting childish now?
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If you say you don't know, you deny your own faith.
That's exactly my point. Faith has NOTHING to do with knowledge.
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Knowledge is NOT the same as believe.
Nobody denies it, I guess.
Then why do theists always say "I KNOW god exists", instead of "I BELIEVE god exist"?
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Doomforge
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posted July 10, 2007 05:36 PM |
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Go to Wikipedia.
stop with that stupid site, it's full of bullsh*t, quote it at a serious university and they will laugh at you forever.
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Don't you think it's getting childish now?
No, because I fear you're trying to argue about something you don't understand too well. That is science. I'm no scientist, but I know the basics. Do you know them too? Or do you just blindly repeat "humanity came from apes" and "big bang created the universe" without even trying to learn what big bang really is and why modern scientists argue about it? And why those theories are full of holes? just don't believe in everything wikipedia says like the guy above, you'll humiliate yourself one day (happened to me before, trust me..  )
Anyway, as I said before, I do not try to mix faith with knowledge, and nobody really should, because faith =/= knowledge, and I agree with you here.
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Millions of kids read Harry Potter. I bet millions think such a wizard school really exists. Does it exist?
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No you do not. Otherwise you wouldn't say things like "You can't compare Potter and the bible". This statement shows pretty good, you did NOT understand.
Explain your intentions of putting that sentence about harry potter here, then.
If it's not a parallel of some sort, why the heck you write pointless things in a discussion?
You're desperately trying to prove I don't understand your oh so logical point of view, although you can't even express your thoughts without ambiguous sentences. Again, if that's not a parallel, WHAT is that supposed to be? Enlighten me.
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angelito
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posted July 10, 2007 05:54 PM |
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Give me one good reason why someone wouldn't be able to live 900 years?
Maybe just because our cells become older and "get out of order"?
Do you know why they get older and out of order?
I'm not a prof refering to biology, but I wonder why we never found any skeletons showing us the body was about 500 years old before he died. No "neandertales" or other "homo sapiens" ever became that old...they even never became older than 50. And there was no industry or anything like that which made those former human beings unable to become hundreds of years old.
So the only people who became that old exist in the bible.
Again.....the only "evidence" are written words in a book. But this would be a scientific evidence if we would just find such corpses. Such a big chance for the theists.....but failed....
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angelito
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posted July 10, 2007 06:04 PM |
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Go to Wikipedia.
stop with that stupid site, it's full of bullsh*t, quote it at a serious university and they will laugh at you forever.
Who are you to judge that?
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Don't you think it's getting childish now?
No, because I fear you're trying to argue about something you don't understand too well. That is science. I'm no scientist, but I know the basics. Do you know them too? Or do you just blindly repeat "humanity came from apes" and "big bang created the universe" without even trying to learn what big bang really is and why modern scientists argue about it? And why those theories are full of holes? just don't believe in everything wikipedia says like the guy above, you'll humiliate yourself one day (happened to me before, trust me.. )
You really think the only place where people go to school and learn something is poland? You better stop telling us we all have no clue about science and you recieved 24 nobel prizes already.
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Millions of kids read Harry Potter. I bet millions think such a wizard school really exists. Does it exist?
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No you do not. Otherwise you wouldn't say things like "You can't compare Potter and the bible". This statement shows pretty good, you did NOT understand.
Explain your intentions of putting that sentence about harry potter here, then.
If it's not a parallel of some sort, why the heck you write pointless things in a discussion?
You're desperately trying to prove I don't understand your oh so logical point of view, although you can't even express your thoughts without ambiguous sentences. Again, if that's not a parallel, WHAT is that supposed to be? Enlighten me.
This is because you just left out the MAIN sentance of this comparison. I even made it in BLUE font so it is easier to discover. I will quote it again, just for you:
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I never compared the content of the books, but the phenomenon of "million people believe something which is stated in a book". Which brings up the conclusion: A theory doesn't become true only because many believe in it.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 10, 2007 06:06 PM |
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Angelitos point/question was : If a certain amount of people (say a million) believe into a certain written thing (which can be anything really, Potter is JUST an example as is Bible), does that alone make it real? That is what you failed to understand. Because here is what you replied.
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Finally there are obvious differences between the Bible and Harry Potter, so comparing them isn't really the most accurate thing.
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Istari
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posted July 10, 2007 06:09 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 18:24, 10 Jul 2007.
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*sigh*no replies for me...hohum
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 10, 2007 06:19 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 18:19, 10 Jul 2007.
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Not wishing to get to deep into discussions, there are a few points I would like to make.
As every other Israeli I have studied some of the Tanah - Jewish holy book on which the Old Testament is based. In those studies some very interesting things were brought up. I haven't read most of the thread, just read through the last page and 2 things caught my eye:
1. The Bible describes some things that sound illogical. The example that was given is men living for 900(?) years. I'm guessing this referring to Adam, Eve and their closer descendants.
Possible expalantion:
Remember that "years" is something tha men invented. Men decided when a year begins and how long will it take for it to pass. From time to time human years were changed, e.g. the Hebrew year once started in the middle of (what's called today) Spring and now it begins in (what's called today) the first month of Fall. The Russian year that now begins on the first of Januar once began with the coming of Spring. Moreover, even now there are at least 2 different calendars in the world - solar and lunar. They don't do not begin at the same time, they do not end at the same time, they even don't consist of the same number of days.
So 900 years in the old times could equal 19 years in our times, though we'll probably never know for sure.
2. The translation problem.
I'll give you simple example (that we learned in school ) of how a translation can be misleading.
We all know that Eve was created from Adam's rib... or was she? In the Tanah it is written that the Lord took Adam's "tzela" and made a woman out of it. Now the word "tzela" can be translated as a "rib", and then we get the story we all know and love. However, the word "tzelah" can also bve translated as a "side" or a "part", then we get something completely different. One of the explanations (and it's my invention or something) is that the first man was a hermaphrodite and God seperated his female part from his male part. Again, now we'll never know what the writer had in mind.
The moral?
Don't believe in the literal meanings of everything and don't make conclusions too fast.
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Minion
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posted July 10, 2007 06:29 PM |
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Thanks Geny.
The sad thing is that I cannot fully trust the translations that are used today. There have simply been too many alterations to the original. I read books always when possible in their original language, because I feel that it looses (can loose, some translators are extremely talented though) the touch/humour/mindset of the original writer, the artist...
Now Bible is far more serious, because that is allegedly from God. How could I read THAT when its not in its original form? Same goes for the old chinese classic Tao Te Ching - it is said to be impossible to translate because phrases and words that are used there are simply untranslatable - or have dual meanings that are lost in the translation. It is somewhat same with Hebrew I presume.
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Istari
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posted July 10, 2007 06:41 PM |
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Thanks Geny.
The sad thing is that I cannot fully trust the translations that are used today. There have simply been too many alterations to the original. I read books always when possible in their original language, because I feel that it looses (can loose, some translators are extremely talented though) the touch/humour/mindset of the original writer, the artist...
Now Bible is far more serious, because that is allegedly from God. How could I read THAT when its not in its original form?
The same say you'd read any other ancient work of literature when you can't read the original language. You understand that the translation will accurately duplicate the major themes and points, but likely lose some of the subtleties. When a passage is particularily troublesome, do a little research on the original language. If you really believe you must have the Bbile either perfect or not at all, learn Greek and Hebrew. The only reason you'd want that is if you believed it was from God... and if it is, you should take very seriously the task of reading it.
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mvassilev
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posted July 10, 2007 06:49 PM |
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Go to Wikipedia.
stop with that stupid site, it's full of bullsh*t, quote it at a serious university and they will laugh at you forever.
I understand that Wikipedia has flaws. But it's not where I learned most of the stuff that I say. It's just the most accessable source.
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No, because I fear you're trying to argue about something you don't understand too well. That is science. I'm no scientist, but I know the basics. Do you know them too? Or do you just blindly repeat "humanity came from apes" and "big bang created the universe" without even trying to learn what big bang really is and why modern scientists argue about it?
There is proof of the two theories you mentioned. There is no proof of God's existance.
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Istari
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posted July 10, 2007 06:53 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 19:02, 10 Jul 2007.
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Trying to prove God's existence with science is like trying to smell the color 9.
EDIT:
If you are really interested in understanding God, read my post on the previous page.
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dimis
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posted July 10, 2007 07:33 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 19:33, 10 Jul 2007.
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Does science apply to that which is not observable?
Do you question this? Or are you looking for an answer?
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Istari
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posted July 10, 2007 07:49 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 19:59, 10 Jul 2007.
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Does science apply to that which is not observable?
Do you question this? Quote:
Or are you looking for an answer?
I have stated several times in this thread that science does not apply to that which is not observable. Because people continue to write with the assumption it can, and no one is addressing my posts (at least that part of my posts) I stated the question more simply. The 2 options are
1) claim that science can apply the unobservable phenomena and support that claim
or
2) stop expecting science to answer the question of God's existence.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 10, 2007 08:36 PM |
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1) claim that science can apply the unobservable phenomena and support that claim
You mean like electromagnetic fields and such?
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Lith-Maethor
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posted July 10, 2007 08:41 PM |
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hmmm
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If Christianity isn't worth putting all your hopes and dreams into, pray tell me what exists on this planet that is?
how about the people you care about and live among?
or if you are talking about a philosophy... buddhism sounds safe enough to me
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Istari
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posted July 10, 2007 08:46 PM |
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1) claim that science can apply the unobservable phenomena and support that claim
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You mean like electromagnetic fields and such?
Are they measurable? I guess yes. That makes them observable.
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