|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
posted July 10, 2007 08:47 PM |
|
|
Respectable scientists don't have a problem admitting the limitations of science. Those who want science to be limitless want science to be a god.
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
|
posted July 10, 2007 08:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If Christianity isn't worth putting all your hopes and dreams into, pray tell me what exists on this planet that is?
I won't repeat what I said here,
but I put my hopes and dreams in myself and other people.
For me the most significant question is not whether a godlike entity exists, but whether you need to believe in some higher power. I don't need God to appreciate a beautiful landscape, the company of friends, good food, or the mysteries of the universe.
So why devote energy praying to a source that may not exist, and spend hours in church, when you can dedicate that same energy to fight for human rights, help people get a job and support fair trade? Those things help people in a real and concrete way, and believe me... they do give life a meaning 
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:03 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I don't need God to appreciate a beautiful landscape, the company of friends, good food, or the mysteries of the universe.
Words to live by.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:06 PM |
|
|
Quote:
*sigh* no replies for me...hohum
Sorry, but the reason is:
Your posts are very accurat and well thought written. One can really feel you know what you are writing and it is very interesting to "argue" with you.
My english isn't that fluent, so I am not able to understand everything u wanna say by only 1 time reading it. I will respond to your last posts soon...gimme some more time.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I have stated several times in this thread that science does not apply to that which is not observable. Because people continue to write with the assumption it can, and no one is addressing my posts (at least that part of my posts) I stated the question more simply. The 2 options are
1) claim that science can apply the unobservable phenomena and support that claim
or
2) stop expecting science to answer the question of God's existence.
Why only two options? Do you have any indications that science does not apply to something unobservable?
First of endless "unobservable" examples that science can't touch  : set.
Secondly, you have to realize that you are changing the meaning of your sentences (perhaps because you find the flaws in your previous ones). Something unobservable is not the same as an unobservable phenomenon. Btw., the "unobservable phenomenon" is contradictory by itself! Because phenomenon is something that "is seen" (the word is greek, and trust me I tell you the truth).
Do you even get what you want to say? just wondering ...
____________
The empty set
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:18 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Who are you to judge that?
Have you heard about that guy who wrote thousands of articles for wikipedia and was considered a specialist on the wiki forums, but he turned out to be a simple guy knowing nothing and just fooling around, pretending he knows everything? After such incidents, depending on wikipedia seems stupid for me. Also, the majority of my professors claim the articles there are casual, incomplete, and often, totally wrong. I believe them.
Quote:
You really think the only place where people go to school and learn something is poland? You better stop telling us we all have no clue about science and you recieved 24 nobel prizes already.
That was not my point. It doesn't matter where you live, as long as you know what are you talking about. So, I must ask - do you? If so, I apologize for my doubts concerning you. If not, just don't do it.
Quote:
This is because you just left out the MAIN sentance of this comparison. I even made it in BLUE font so it is easier to discover. I will quote it again, just for you:
Quote:
I never compared the content of the books, but the phenomenon of "million people believe something which is stated in a book". Which brings up the conclusion: A theory doesn't become true only because many believe in it.
It is still a parallel: you compare potter phenomenon to bible phenomenon, isn't it? What's wrong with you guys, am I wrong saying this is a comparison? If I am, then I am sorry for my blindness. It still seems a simple comparison, no matter if it concerns the context, message or phenomenon. And that's comparing apples to bananas, or however they say it ;P
and oh yes, I hope you do not feel offended any way, angelito, since I don't want to offend you; I just want to discuss some things 
@Istari, since you're a native speaker, most of the ppl (including myself ofc) may find it hard to discuss with you..
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Respectable scientists don't have a problem admitting the limitations of science. Those who want science to be limitless want science to be a god.
Did anyone in this thread claim this or is just another thing popping out of your mind?
____________
The empty set
|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Why only two options? Do you have any indications that science does not apply to something unobservable?
A common difinition of science is: the study of the physical world and its manifestations, especially by using systematic observation and experiment. By definition it cannot address that which in not observable.
Quote:
First of endless "unobservable" examples that science can't touch : set.
God, the soul, love, angels, spiritual gifts, divine inspiration, miracles, spiritual encounters...
Quote:
Secondly, you have to realize that you are changing the meaning of your sentences (perhaps because you find the flaws in your previous ones). Something unobservable is not the same as an unobservable phenomenon. Btw., the "unobservable phenomenon" is contradictory by itself! Because phenomenon is something that "is seen" (the word is greek, and trust me I tell you the truth).
I assure you I am not changing the meaning of my statements. You are correct that the phrase "unobservable phenomuna" is definitionally impossible. I was just using it to replace the more cumbersome phrase "that which cannot be observed." I bent a rule of semantics to do it, but the meaning stays the same.
Quote:
Do you even get what you want to say? just wondering ...
This may be where the confusion started. Please address the point of my posts instead of looking for insignificant phrases to pull apart.
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
Korejora
Promising
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:39 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If Christianity isn't worth putting all your hopes and dreams into, pray tell me what exists on this planet that is?
Considering that the human race isn't exactly endangered, I'd say a very large percentage of the population would agree that making a family is worth putting all your hopes and dreams into.
____________
That's the best part. 
|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:47 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Respectable scientists don't have a problem admitting the limitations of science. Those who want science to be limitless want science to be a god.
Quote:
Did anyone in this thread claim this or is just another thing popping out of your mind?
I call things "popping out of my mind" thoughts. No one said it previously (that I'm aware of). I have done some studying in psychology and think that people who want science to be limitless want it as a type of God. This is by far a minor point, compared to my other posts. If you are interested in it though answer "why would someone want science to be more than it is?"
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Sorry, but the reason is:
Your posts are very accurat and well thought written. One can really feel you know what you are writing and it is very interesting to "argue" with you.
My english isn't that fluent, so I am not able to understand everything u wanna say by only 1 time reading it. I will respond to your last posts soon...gimme some more time.
Thank you for the compliment and letting me know that my posts aren't being ignored.
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 09:53 PM |
|
Edited by Istari at 21:54, 10 Jul 2007.
|
Quote:
It is still a parallel: you compare potter phenomenon to bible phenomenon, isn't it? What's wrong with you guys, am I wrong saying this is a comparison?
The "comparison" was only meant to say, "people believing something doesn't make it true." Hary Potter, and the Bible don't need any simularities to make that statement, and in fact it is true. There are other reason's why the Bible is True, and it has nothing to do with how many people believe it.
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 10:16 PM |
|
|
Quote:
There are other reason's why the Bible is True, and it has nothing to do with how many people believe it.
What is your take on other holy literature, such as the Quran? Or the Vedas?
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 10:36 PM |
|
|
Quote:
A common difinition of science is: the study of the physical world and its manifestations, especially by using systematic observation and experiment.
Says who? You?
Quote:
God, the soul, love, angels, spiritual gifts, divine inspiration, miracles, spiritual encounters...
Are you trying to say something?
Quote:
I assure you I am not changing the meaning of my statements. You are correct that the phrase "unobservable phenomuna" is definitionally impossible. I was just using it to replace the more cumbersome phrase "that which cannot be observed." I bent a rule of semantics to do it, but the meaning stays the same.
Are you talking about intuition?
Quote:
Quote:
Do you even get what you want to say? just wondering ...
This may be where the confusion started. Please address the point of my posts instead of looking for insignificant phrases to pull apart.
I am addressing the points of your posts. I guess I am unable to understand what you want to say.
Quote:
Quote:
Respectable scientists don't have a problem admitting the limitations of science. Those who want science to be limitless want science to be a god.
Quote:
Did anyone in this thread claim this or is just another thing popping out of your mind?
I call things "popping out of my mind" thoughts.
Thanks for the definition.
Quote:
No one said it previously (that I'm aware of).
I assume you mean no-one in thread
Quote:
I have done some studying in psychology and think that people who want science to be limitless want it as a type of God.
Is this another thought (belief?) of yours or do some (hypothetical?) people made you form that idea?
Quote:
This is by far a minor point, compared to my other posts.
Sorry, but I don't see any point in what you are saying.
Quote:
If you are interested in it though ...
Interested in what exactly?
Quote:
... answer "why would someone want science to be more than it is?"
Beats me!
____________
The empty set
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 10:54 PM |
|
|
You really can't "prove" if something beyond the physical world exists; because, to prove it, it has to be at least indirectly observable, and to be observable it has to be in the physical world. You can only prove things that exist in the physical world.
I wouldn't accept anything like the existence of God without proof, and there cannot be proof for it (unless God physically exists, and there's no proof of that, either). Thus, I will never believe in God.
As to the debate about Wikipedia, it's an imperfect source, but it's an easy one. It's easier to refer someone to Wikipedia than to look through obscure sources. And it usually has at least the general idea right.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 11:04 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You really can't "prove" if something beyond the physical world exists; because, to prove it, it has to be at least indirectly observable, and to be observable it has to be in the physical world. You can only prove things that exist in the physical world.
I am not sure. In fact I think I disagree. I already gave an example towards that direction: Proofs in set theory.
Quote:
As to the debate about Wikipedia, it's an imperfect source, but it's an easy one. It's easier to refer someone to Wikipedia than to look through obscure sources. And it usually has at least the general idea right.
I agree too. I haven't used Wikipedia often, but for the amount of times I 've used it, it contains accurate articles and gives you a good general idea in more than 80% of the cases. Of course, I might have been lucky or used Wikipedia very little times to be able to draw a conclusion.
____________
The empty set
|
|
antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 11:50 PM |
|
|
I'm unsure what are you people questining here...
The faith in sicence or the facts of God?
I mean sirously people,why debate on something that cannot be defined,we can never ever know the true answer,then why try?
____________
types in obscure english
|
|
Shadey
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 11:53 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
If Christianity isn't worth putting all your hopes and dreams into, pray tell me what exists on this planet that is?
Considering that the human race isn't exactly endangered, I'd say a very large percentage of the population would agree that making a family is worth putting all your hopes and dreams into.
For what purpose? Your idea of the ultimate ideal is perpetuating the human race? You're telling me that you only live for your family? So if they die in some accident, then you have nothing to live for? What happens when someone in your family backstabs you? What if your wife or husband kills all your children and commits suicide? You will put all your hopes and dreams into that?
|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
|
posted July 10, 2007 11:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
What is your take on other holy literature, such as the Quran? Or the Vedas?
I don't know, I haven't studied them much. Do they claim to be divinely inspired? (obviously not everything that claims it is divinely inspired is, but I do not even know if they claim that.)
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
|
|
posted July 11, 2007 12:00 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I'm unsure what are you people questining here...
The faith in sicence or the facts of God?
I mean sirously people,why debate on something that cannot be defined,we can never ever know the true answer,then why try?
I think we can know the true answer. It is tough though because people are applying very different ways of understanding the world.
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
|
|
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
