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Yanzhangcan
Known Hero
*Dance*
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posted January 28, 2007 11:48 AM |
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As much as I try to force myself into thinking a god exists, I have done the math, read the mistakes, and seen through the shroud of illusion.
Life is a great gift, I think we have a very special purpose here on earth, we are here for a purpose. Once we die, our questions will be answered, or not. Eternal rest is very interesting. Can you remember what happened while you were asleep?
I am a goth, generally for the purpose of individuality, but it hides my confused persona, the part of me that is scared of death. Fear is death related. I think something will happen when we die, except all the religions have a piece of correct information.
An interesting topic. Something that most people turn their noses and plead ignorance, but it is ever evident as people die everyday, and its just a spin of the wheel and you are next.
Religion = Conforming. Society would crumble if you found out that there is no god. What would you do? Act normally? Live life the same? People would lose control, kill others, complete anarchy. Religion is the handcuffs.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted January 28, 2007 12:08 PM |
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@Ashrah:
Quote:
I agree with everything you said! (The starter of this topic)
The thing I find very strange is why people believe in many different gods, and in so many ways it reviels it's own insanity.
It's just ancient mythology-like material that survived (strangely) into this age, and it probably survives until the end of the world (a shame).
Unlike you I believe that religion is a bad thing, but I have my reasons to believe that.
You're right, it is ancient mythology. Just like the pagan gods, or the aborigine dreamtime, it all was impossibly unrealistic at once. But the modern religions are so strong they've been developed over the years to provide made up reasons and excuses... that's why it survived and that's why it will survive. Evolution, kinda
But yeah I agree that religion is a bad thing, nowadays. It may have helped alot along time ago, but not anymore. We don't need it. 
@Yanzhangcan:
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As much as I try to force myself into thinking a god exists, I have done the math, read the mistakes, and seen through the shroud of illusion.
An intelligent thing to do, to question both sides of the argument, and especially to see it how it is at the end of it. 
Quote:
Life is a great gift, I think we have a very special purpose here on earth, we are here for a purpose. Once we die, our questions will be answered, or not. Eternal rest is very interesting. Can you remember what happened while you were asleep?
I doubt, in my opinion, that we are here for a purpose. I think we are here by sheer chance, and that we do what we can to get by.
Destructive thinking, though. Just have fun while you're still around 
Quote:
I am a goth, generally for the purpose of individuality, but it hides my confused persona, the part of me that is scared of death. Fear is death related. I think something will happen when we die, except all the religions have a piece of correct information.
I'm scared as anything of death.
I can empathize with the Muse song "Thoughts of a Dying Athiest"
Eerie whispers
trapped beneath my pillow
won't let me sleep
your memories
and I know you're in this room
I'm sure I heard you sigh
Floating in between
where our worlds collide
scares the hell out of me
and the end is all I can see
and it scares the hell out of me
and the end is all I can see
and I know the moment's near
and there's nothing you can do
look through a faithless eye
are you afraid to die?
Will the strongest athiest, on his deathbed, break down and pray to anyone who will take him to heaven, or accept his life as it was?
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Religion = Conforming. Society would crumble if you found out that there is no god. What would you do? Act normally? Live life the same? People would lose control, kill others, complete anarchy. Religion is the handcuffs.
Morality and empathy can replace religion in this instance. (with the exception of psychopaths who are born without this ability)...
Do you, having dismissed religion, go out and murder, cheat, lie and steal at every opportunity?
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John says to live above hell.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 28, 2007 12:52 PM |
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science vs religion
Why are science and religion always put up against each other? The church said that the world was flat, yes; people who claimed that it was round were looked upon as heretics. The church was proven wrong but still it said that Earth was the centre of the Universe and that all other planets and even the sun itself circled around the Earth. Science also changed that view, though today the question is really not meaningful, such movements are relative.
Earlier the church played the role of describing such things as the existence of the universe and the creation of life. It had authority on more fields than today.
Even though the church saw Columbus and Galileo as 'enemies' it gave up the monopoly of describing the physical reality during the renaissance and left that to the scientists there was no conflict. People like Newton and Ørsted (just to name a Danish scientist  ) were deeply religious. They believed that through their work they uncovered how God's enormous 'clockwork' functioned; they were simply discovering the genius and greatness of his work.
It is a misconception that science and religion are each others contrasts.
As I see it scientists just reflect the time they live in. Naturally scientists of today are less religious than earlier. Science has also separated itself from religion; the existence of God was not questioned at Newton's time.
But they didn't live happily ever after, did they? No. After all, the laws of motion and the discovery of electro magnetism are quite innocent. The theory of evolution is much more controversial. So is the current explanation of the creation of the universe. They defy the idea of God as the creator. That is the only reason as to why the theory of evolution is not accepted by many people. Once again science comes and challenges their view of the world. Just as when people claimed the Earth was round and not the centre of the solar system.
But evolution is fact. Just like the theory of gravity is. It's ridiculous to accept one but not the other. Then one could just as well refuse science as a whole.
This is where the supporters of intelligent design come in. Self proclaimed scientists. They are the last invention of creationism. God as the Creator has been cut down by Occam's razor; it can be applied perfectly well; explaining one improbable event with an even more improbable one is absurd. The idea of a divine entity as an explanation to the creation is unacceptable.
Naturally, those who believe in God as the creator will go against such a theory; but intelligent design is not a science; they've obviously started with the conclusion, and are only trying to discredit the theory of evolution.
I could not care less for what they believe if not for the fact that they seek influence on what is being taught at schools in the US. That is too serious to be called laughable.
But that is another discussion. I just wanted to point out that science and religion are not in direct contrast to each other. Science is not some conspiracy against religion, it just describes the physical reality in which we live and where we come from. Of course such issues have a great impact on how we define ourselves as humans and in that sense science threatens religious beliefs. But science does not (and should never) tell you what is right and what is wrong. Some people have misused science to justify their beliefs throughout history, but that is not a role science should have. That is a role for religion and philosophy to play.
You have to be careful not to judge either science or religion on the other's premises.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted January 28, 2007 12:58 PM |
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A part of the religious community (a part not so stubborn) has accepted evolution, but claimed that it was god who set it all up to happen in the beginning. This incorporates the theory which was flatly rejected at first, but has become more and more popular. Just as I said, the story of religion evolves in itself to adapt to new scientific discoveries.
That's why it's religion v science.
Because, regarding the fallacy of god, science tends to disprove the religion, and when this proof cannot be stopped the leaders have to change the story once more to include it.
Science doesn't kill god, just points him out for what he is. And we don't want that, now, do we?
as you say, science describes the physical world around us, and in here, there is no place for such a god.
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John says to live above hell.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 28, 2007 01:37 PM |
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But the conflict only exists because the church or other religious institutions reject such things as the theory of evolution and naturally the scientists will have to react; it is not 'built into' science.
Science does not tell you that a divine entity doesn't exist, just that God (or whatever we call him) can't be the creator.
You are using science to say that religion is bad and that it's a lie. Thus you turn science into a matter of belief as well; that was what I meant in my last post, that you should not judge religion on the premises of science.
Religion is not just another explanation of the origin of life and the physical reality; I'm sure we agree that that should be left to the scientists.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted January 28, 2007 01:54 PM |
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You can use science to say that religion is untrue, but not that it's bad. That's shown in other ways.
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John says to live above hell.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 28, 2007 02:43 PM |
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I think there's a very fine line that marks a huge difference between stating that religion is bad, and that religion is used for bad ends.
Anyway, you have a very excellent post with a lot of correct points Ecoris. The confrontation between religion and science only comes when either part refuses to see the core of the other - the main problem probably being that many religions stand so rigorously on their milenia old traditions that reflect society (and science!) at their time of origin rather than present time, and therefore obviously are incompatible with modern day science (ans society). If religion was willing to adapt to the current state of science, there would be absolutely no conflict at all - like I said previously, you can perfectly well fit the concept of God as the creator into the theory of Big Bang, if that's what you want to believe. Of course, it'll just make most of what's in the Bible obsolete.
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What will happen now?
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 28, 2007 02:52 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 14:53, 28 Jan 2007.
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We do not need God to explain the Big Bang. You may do so if you wish, but you should apply Occam's razor. If we accept the explanation "such is the will of God" for issues that science can't explain, science will die. "such is the will of God" is simply an insufficient answer to the question "why?".
But I do not believe that science and religion can't co-exist without conflicts. You can't make direct comparisons between science and religion; it's like comparing apples and oranges.
Edit: And thank you for expressing what I was trying to point out in a simpler way.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 28, 2007 09:15 PM |
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Quote:
@Alc: Well, I can't really argue with you here, but it is slightly different. I'm not contesting for the moral high-ground
See Maretti's excellent post haha.
@Maretti: No one blames them
"In God We Trust" printed everywhere, what happened to religious freedom?
You're allowed to believe in whatever you want, as long as it's God. And the same God as us. Yep.
@Aculias:
You mentioned about parents making their kids pray and read the bible etc. I wrote about this in my essay about how this is pretty average.
I mean to do that to a kid is to say he is christian, or whatever relgion is in question. Christian means that you believe that god created the universe, agree wholeheartedly with all the moral values and issues raised from the religion itself. To say that a young child supports a complex religion like that is like saying that your child follows the Marxist philosophy, or is Anti-Darwinist, when they have absolutely no idea about it. Theyre too young to understand these things. A young child cannot have a religion, unless it is forced upon them.
In which case they didn't choose their religion at all. If child A was born into a christian family and brought up to be a christian, then he would not doubt his religion, but it is not his choosing. However, he thinks that all other religions are false. If the same child was instead brought up in a different family, with a different religion forced upon them, say, Islam, then they would believe the exact opposite.
Does anyone else see anything wrong with that?
In one instance the child believes that christianity is absolutely right, and that Islam is wrong, because, well that's what it is. Because his parents told him that's what it is. As it is with most christians. They are right because, why, their parents made them read the bible?
Then the Islam baby is absolutely sure he is right and that the christians are wrong.
They can't both be right. They haven't experienced both with a clean slate, and decided, this one is right. They were told which one, and they will defend that with all they have.
It's like a bunch of kids being assigned a team on a sport. Regardless of the team, the kids will think that THEIR one is the best.
There is nothing wrong to praise what you believe in.
Sometimes people take it too far.
SOme became radical or used a name for self gain.
Like Jim Jones in Stones Town lol.
Some murdered because of the Bibles beliefs.
Like i said there is nothing wrong with it but some take it WAY too far.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 28, 2007 09:21 PM |
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Ecoris because Religion are beliefs that we pray for.
Our master is in our religion & we shall believe in him & what he says.
Not like Charles Darwin who proved himself wrong right before he died but real Science facts.
We proved many times about hard facts like you said.
The world is actually round & not flat.
So it comes down to what our master writes & what is tooken as fact. OR hard scientific facts.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Yanzhangcan
Known Hero
*Dance*
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posted January 28, 2007 09:54 PM |
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There is a lot of confusion surrounding religion. It seems to clash with what we think makes sense. If god was almighty, powerful, why did it take him 7 days to create the universe?
Also, the Adam & Eve story was the last straw. Where the hell did cains wife come from? Or did he "Lie" with his mother? Something that the christians look down on is incest, yet that seems to be the only plausible way to have children. Unless god got some more clay 
Ok: Having dissected the bible, (Not literally) A verse mentions "If your faith is strong as a rock, just believe in me and the poisons of man will not harm you"
If I told the pope to swallow some arsenic, to prove the existence and confirm the bible, would he swallow it without a thought? Or would he say the whole "It is a metaphor" phrase, to save himself?
Circumcision is stupid, if god wants us to all chop them off then why are we born with them? -_- This covenant is strange and sick. Why is god so obssessed with that kind of thing?
And to answer your question, I live life to the full, I enjoy and appreciate each day, but I would never dream of stealing, rape etc. I would not wish it done to me so I don't do it.
Hope this clears up some points
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 28, 2007 11:48 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 23:49, 28 Jan 2007.
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@Aculias
I really don't know what to make from your post. What your trying to say is quite unclear to me.
@Yanzhangcan
Quote:
but I would never dream of stealing, rape etc. I would not wish it done to me so I don't do it.
Hmm. Now is that your entire explanation?
I would add "because I would feel bad about doing such things to others".
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MightyMage
Honorable
Legendary Hero
of INSANITY and DELICIOUSNESS
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posted January 28, 2007 11:57 PM |
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Quote:
Ok: Having dissected the bible, (Not literally) A verse mentions "If your faith is strong as a rock, just believe in me and the poisons of man will not harm you"
If I told the pope to swallow some arsenic, to prove the existence and confirm the bible, would he swallow it without a thought? Or would he say the whole "It is a metaphor" phrase, to save himself?
First off i'll mention that I happen to be one of those "Children A's" as mentioned in a previous post. I was born into a very Christian family. Lutherans to be exact. Because of that I was baptized, sent to Christian schools, Confirmed, and made to go to church every Sunday. I didn't doubt what I was taught because I was only given one point of view. Bible Study, Chapel, Church...etc.
What finally opened my eyes was actually the schools fault (considering they seem to prefer keeping their eyes shut). They scheduled a field trip to Cranbrook Institute of Science for two weeks of pure scientific study.
I can recall pretty much all of this trip for many reasons but the part I remember the most was when one of the guys there was discussing elemental effects on rocks and what not. He was talking about how wind and rain can cause erosion and bring about the creation of new landmarks. He asked us if we could name any examples and I like an idiot yelled out "The Flood"
So he asked me, "which flood"?
That was kind of a low point for me because up until then I had becer heard anyone say something like that before. The Flood was THE FLOOD. Noah and all those animals.
I just sat back down in a kind of mix between shock and shame.
We were also taught about Dinosaurs and Fossils which my school taught was not real. Fossils were, according to them, the work of evil scientists trying to lead people away from God.
I wont say much more about that subject only because I figure you all can pretty much guess how that entire trip went. Needless to say, they didn't schedule a trip to Cranbrook after that year.
I was also sent to a Christian Highschool (which I hated) but fortunately for only a year and a half when my parents finally heard my pleas to go to public school. I know it sounds crazy to ask to move from Private school to Public but if you had seen this place you would have wanted to escape too.
Now as far as your quote goes, I will tell you what I ended up learning quite quickly. The Bible is a book of translations and metaphors. It all depends on who is reading from it at what time. But basically it boils down to what you want to hear. What you said for instance alone can be translated to mean the evils and sinful nature of mankind. But, any preist, father, padre, pastor, whatever will always whip out this famous bible quote to battle nearly everything:
From Matthew
5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Trust me, I had that verse whipped in my face many times. Oh and how about "God works in mysterious ways"
Any sign or proof you ask for cannot and never will be shown to you and that is the excuses the religious leaders use.
Also I'd like to point out to TA about what he said to Aculias. I completly understand that from firsthand experience. Not just myself but the many different types of people I work with. The majority of people being Muslim. That religion is like a national or even cultural religion to these people. They are born into it, raised with it and around it, and therefore have no other reason to think otherwise. They are taught respect for other people's religion but in their hearts they will always believe that they are the chosen people and that their beliefs are the right ones.
One of my friends who is Muslim has told me parts of his beliefs and just like any other religion they teach certain values and a way to live one's life. It all depends on how a person translates their holy book.
*Crusaders
*Terrorists (the Middle Eastern kind)
It just makes me wonder what's in store for the future...that is if Global Warming doesn't kill us first (but that's an entirely differt topic now isn't it  )
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Though I must still bow
in awe for the awesomeness that is
MightyMage. For he is all I could ever
want to be! - OhforfSake
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Yanzhangcan
Known Hero
*Dance*
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posted January 29, 2007 12:45 AM |
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Thankyou Mightymage, my realisation came when I asked the priest who created god. He told me "Do not worry about such things, you will find out in time". I think I stumped him, he had no response.
Generally religion is a god thing, but it is also in my opinion the biggest white lie in the universe.
It's a shock when the things like waht happened to you happen. It's like being told santa does not exist, or that when you die you don't go to heaven.
Religion causes enmity between other religions too, remember the crusades? They were not doing a holy quest, they raped the women, killed the men, destroyed the villages and the people there just because they did not beleive in a Christian God. That was terrible, and I hate them for it.
How would you feel if it was death to not go to church? What if the pope declared all countries had to go to church or die? This could have happened in the early ages, and it was considered heresy to believe in anything else.
Putting your trust in God is a very stupid thing to do. Imagine trusting your god to heal your child when it is sick, and then it dies even though there is medicine for that thing. You would feel terrible. Wasting your life by trusting what you have no proof of.
Christians hate people who cast spells and such, yet jesus made water into wine, mutiplied food, and moses parted the red sea, made water come out of a rock, asked god to send bread down from the sky,
and made an army win against unbelievable odds (100 on ten thousand I think). This has to be stupid, and I think phychics are real, yet they are looked down on by christians.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 29, 2007 10:31 AM |
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Asrah, I think you're crusade against the strict biblic believers is a little besides the point here. I whole-heartedly agree that much of what's in the Bible is none-sense, but the contents of the Bible is not the core of what's religion, even Christian religion (though a lot of people seem to have lost track of this!) - and I think most of the people here agree on that, and the discussion should probably be taken one step beyond this - not about the Bible specifically, but about religion and the whole concept of God in general.
Anyway, I'd like to quote you from the other thread about religion:
Quote:
I'm also extreme atheist, a reversal of the religous people who come at you door and tell you stories about how you should believe in god? well I'm the opposite, I try to talk people out of it, but I don't visit people at home like them.
This sort of pretty much underscores my point from earlier - if you don't like religeous people preach their belief to them, then don't preach your belief to them as well. Everybody has the right to have their own belief, and one should respect that. Of course, one can always question - especially when people start talking none-sense with reference to some thousands of years old book - I do that myself (ask questions, that was supposed to be - though I probably also talk none-sense a lot of the time ), but it's important not to lose track of why you do it, and whether they're up for it - otherwise it'll just be you imposing your beliefs on them against their will.
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What will happen now?
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Yanzhangcan
Known Hero
*Dance*
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posted January 29, 2007 12:03 PM |
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Well, I think that the bible is a several hundred page sleeping pill. There is no sense or order (David payed 200 foreskins for micah, sauls daughter WTF) and there is much defending within the bible, They simply there best to misprove intelligent people. Eg "Do not test the lord" and "God works in mysterious ways".
Another really anoying point the bible makes "If you look with lust upon another woman, pluck out the eye that caused you to sin and cast it in the fire. It is better to go to heaven without an eye than for the whole soul to perish." Why would we pull our eyes out to please god? Does he like suffering? Is everyone on earth who looked at a pornographic magizine doomed to hell? Do we have to pluck out eyes out, too?
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2007 12:37 PM |
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You look upon it in a much too literal way. Just look at all the parables of Jesus.
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Yanzhangcan
Known Hero
*Dance*
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posted January 29, 2007 11:36 PM |
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You mean like the parable of the mustard seed? That still makes no sense to me.
All of the bible is unrealistic proportions and metaphoric answers.
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ruby
Promising
Known Hero
crazed swede
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posted January 30, 2007 05:39 AM |
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Edited by ruby at 06:03, 30 Jan 2007.
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You bring up some shaky points, Yan, that I've questioned as well when I was going through a tough time in my religious life. I am still not very religious but I see no problem with standing up for what I believe in.
Quote:
Religion causes enmity between other religions too, remember the crusades? They were not doing a holy quest, they raped the women, killed the men, destroyed the villages and the people there just because they did not beleive in a Christian God. That was terrible, and I hate them for it.
Go ahead, hate the crusades, but ask yourself this. When did the crusades take place? Then, once you find that this was quite a long time ago, the first crusade taking place in 1096, then look at what Christian's are doing today, and while you're at it look at, for example, what the muslims are doing at this current moment. Try to compare the number of people who were killed in the Middle east from the crusades in 1096 to the people who are being killed overseas today because they believe in God? Now, that would be a scary number, let me tell you. I don't like it when people judge the Christians by saying "Oh they want nothing but to force their religion on us, those blood thristy Christians!" That's ignorant. There are many religions all over the world that want nothing more than to see a Christian hanging, and many of them do. In China, Cuba, Africa, and many middle-eastern countries persecute Christian's and throw good-hearted missionaries like Richard Wurmband into jail for years and years to be tortured and eventually killed. Why? Because they believe in Christ. So to say...you can't honestly say that the crusades labeled the Christian's because then you'd have a heck of a lot of labeling to do for the rest of the religions that went on killing sprees long before and long after the crusades, things that still go on to this day.
You also have to remember that nowhere in the bible did God tell the crusaders to rape, murder, and destroy because of people's unbelief. It actually says the opposite and because everyone has a freewill, they will most likely use it, even though they may use the excuse, "Oh the Lord told me."
It's sort of like the case where a woman killed her children in the most gruesome manner and then made the excuse that God had told her to. That's simply absurd and she sets a horrendous example of other Christians. You have to broaden your view and look at the big picture, not looking at one group and simply wrinkling your nose.
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hat if the pope declared all countries had to go to church or die?
When you speak of the pope, you speak of Catholicism, not Christiandom. Two different things. All Christian's don't believe in the pope, including myself, so don't get that mixed up. And still, the pope wouldn't declare that, so you dont have to worry yet.
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Putting your trust in God is a very stupid thing to do.
Now I really hate when people say this. Religion in general is basically about belief. Religion is an argument never won, a theory never proven, and that's the way it is. If someone believes that God can heal their child then that should be seen as a beautiful thing. They're putting faith in something that brings them hope, and even though it may not be real to you, it's real to them. It's not a waste of life. There is so much more to life than scientific proof this and scientific proof that. It's silly to go through life and not have anything to believe in, even if it is the unseen. Some people put their faith in witchcraft, which is also part of the unseen. Some people put their faith in material things. Some people believe in the zodiac and the horoscope. Do you think all those things are a waste of time? Do you think it's all stupid?
Quote:
Christians hate people who cast spells and such, yet jesus made water into wine, mutiplied food, and moses parted the red sea, made water come out of a rock, asked god to send bread down from the sky,
and made an army win against unbelievable odds (100 on ten thousand I think). This has to be stupid, and I think phychics are real, yet they are looked down on by christians.
I really don't like the way you're pointing fingers. So you can say with all honesty that all Christian's hate people who cast spells. That's absurd. A true Christian does not hate anyone but the devil. I suggest that you fully read and come to terms with the bible before using scripture as your defense, because even though you don't believe in it, it wouldn't hurt to have the knowledge before you try to support your arguments against Christians and what they stand for.
I have friends who practiced Wicca, my best friend regularly visits a psychic, and I've been to the underground satanist church in my area. I don't find myself agreeing AT ALL with the things around me, but that doesn't mean I hate my friends for sitting in their rooms doing vodoo on other kids at school. What I find rather irritating is when people constantly say, "Oh there goes that stupid Christian girl who hates anyone that cusses...oh that damn bible thumper!" Now...who really hates who?
Christians are taught to be well-spirited people that love everyone. Now, that may not be the case with all people that share the same religion, but you can't just point out all Christians as lousy because the once you have encountered in "the crusades" have treated you or others around you badly. You have to open up the mind and see things how others see it and experience things in a wider view before you judge it.
An experience I had during my time of unbelief was when I went to the 666 parade on 6/6/06. I was with all my "cool" friends, walking among the huge crowds of people who were clearly excited to celebrate this nautical holiday that only comes once in a lifetime. The crowds went ballistic after a band played. Men and women, mostly teenagers and college students began to throw things at the boutiques in the area, breaking windows and detroying public property. Riots formed and it was completely insane. I was hanging out in the darker slums with my friends, laughing at the stupid drunks that swung from telephone poles, screaming "Hail Satan" at the top of their lungs. But what really struck me was when the Christan youth groups from the area came in.
I watched them closely, bitter and resentful, fearing that they would come over to me to make me feel guilty for being there to watch the scene. But they did not see me. They were busy going up to the people in the midst of the warzone. I paid attention to a younger girl, a very pretty girl who looked to be in her late teens. She had a bible in her hand and she strolled along, looking for someone who wasn't too drunk to understand what she had to offer. I watched her pick a target and as she approached him, he spit right in her face, seeing what she held in her hand. I was stunned. He yelled at her, something along the lines of "******* Jesus Freak." That was when the riot got a lot worse. The atheist group in the area came in with signs, disgusting, horrific signs of Jesus on the cross, being eaten by maggots, picture of angels with their throats slit. It was disgusting. Obsenity was all I heard from the mouth's of those wicked people, and mind you, I'm not pointing my finger at all atheists, just these ones in general. I watched as the Christians were driven away, only a few people leaving with them, as if they didn't have a right to be there. It hurt me, and I went home with shame. I felt disgusting, watching that happening, being a highly thoughtful person for anyone in need of help. It just felt so wrong.
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Another really anoying point the bible makes "If you look with lust upon another woman, pluck out the eye that caused you to sin and cast it in the fire. It is better to go to heaven without an eye than for the whole soul to perish." Why would we pull our eyes out to please god? Does he like suffering? Is everyone on earth who looked at a pornographic magizine doomed to hell? Do we have to pluck out eyes out, too?
To understand the bible, you must study the bible. You cannot simply take it and read it like a children's novel. You have to look deeper than that. Ever heard of symbolism?
This verse is not meant in a literal sense. God does not like suffering in any form, and he definately wants you to come to heaven with both eyes in your eye sockets, not that you'd need them.
What is being said here in a simpler way is that you have to leave the evil of the world behind, to cast them into the fire. If you read a pornographic magazine and you find yourself regretting it, he's not telling you to literally pluck out your eye and light a match. Asking for forgiveness and casting aside evil thoughts and lustful feelings is what he desires, because it you carry sin with you, as you carry your eye with you, then your soul will be lost. That's why it's better to live a pure life so your soul can go onto heaven.
No one can deny getting that funny feeling when they see someone who is desireable. That's natural, but naturally, people sin. You have to read into more scripture to understand. You can't just read it word for word and take everything so literally.
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You mean like the parable of the mustard seed? That still makes no sense to me.
All of the bible is unrealistic proportions and metaphoric answers.
The parable of the mustard seed is actually quite a beautiful parable.
He said therefore, "What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? It is like a mustard seed that someone took and sowed in the garden; it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches." (Luke 13:18-19)
The mustard seed was used as an example of something that grows. When you plant a mustard seed it grows to become a tree. This strong tree with its strong, outstretched brances symbolize the Kingdom of Heaven, the divine place of God. The birds nesting in it would be symbolizing the safe haven the Christians are provided once they die in the natural world, and can finally live eternal life in heaven. Not too hard to make sense out of, as long as you totally read into the scripture.
The bible is filled with parables and stories that Jesus told in order to make it more understandable for the people. He didn't just sit down and say, "Blah blah you are God's children and he loves you blah blah." He used parables and stories using symbolism and metaphors to make it easier to understand. Christianity was new to the people during the time, and the parables of Jesus are still widely used in sermons everywhere.
I'm not totally religious as of now, seeing as how my situation with my family is, but I can easily tell you how warmly the Christians feel about the unsaved people of the world. The Christian mission of today is to save souls. You may think, "Oh Christians are so annoying. All they do is want me to convert and waste my time, and make me believe what they believe in." That's completely false. Christians want you to convert not for their own benefit or to kill some time. Christians believe in a heaven and a hell, and they want you to experience the love and the peace they find in Christ. They want you to experience heaven. They tell you about Jesus not because they gain points or have a chance at winning the lottery...they tell you out of pure unselfishness, warmth, and care. I know I can't speak for every single Christian on this earth, but I am stating what is stated by Jesus and his disciples in the Bible we have the privelege to read and study. I'm not saying that every single Christian in the world follows this guideline.
To sum it up:
The point of Christians to be on this earth is not to enjoy it while it's here. The belief is that heaven is what we will come to enjoy in our afterlife, and we don't have to work ourselves to death to get into heaven. As long as we believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior and follow in his footsteps, we will be safe in his arms. Mind you, but I'm speaking in the terms of where my religion stands. There are other types of Christianity.
There is not one person at my church who would look at a psychic and go, "Eugh I hate people like you." They wouldn't even think it, and I can say that with confidence. Christians aren't here to persecute, and you can't put full blame on Christians of today because of the crusades that happened so long ago. So ask yourself this. What is the belief system and the accomplishments of Satanists? What does the atheist group I told about above do to help society grow in a positive way? Is every religion to blame for something that went wrong in history, or should all heads be turned to the Christians every time there's trouble?
You should also start looking for faults in other religions and you may find Christianity to be quite mild in some terms.
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The Darker the Sky--
The Brighter the Stars-
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posted January 30, 2007 06:14 AM |
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@Ruby:
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Go ahead, hate the crusades, but ask yourself this. When did the crusades take place? Then, once you find that this was quite a long time ago, the first crusade taking place in 1096, then look at what Christian's are doing today, and while you're at it look at, for example, what the muslims are doing at this current moment. Try to compare the number of people who were killed in the Middle east from the crusades in 1096 to the people who are being killed overseas today because they believe in God? Now, that would be a scary number, let me tell you. I don't like it when people judge the Christians by saying "Oh they want nothing but to force their religion on us, those blood thristy Christians!" That's ignorant. There are many religions all over the world that want nothing more than to see a Christian hanging, and many of them do. In China, Cuba, Africa, and many middle-eastern countries persecute Christian's and throw good-hearted missionaries like Richard Wurmband into jail for years and years to be tortured and eventually killed. Why? Because they believe in Christ. So to say...you can't honestly say that the crusades labeled the Christian's because then you'd have a heck of a lot of labeling to do for the rest of the religions that went on killing sprees long before and long after the crusades, things that still go on to this day.
Yes, the crusades were bad, yes, modern terrorism is bad too, but neither of them make the other right. The point that I believe is trying to be made is that they both come under the same catagory: religious atrocities, of which there are many more than those two examples. Most wars were faught over religion, even World War Two, (although no one puts the blame on religion in this instance.
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You also have to remember that nowhere in the bible did God tell the crusaders to rape, murder, and destroy because of people's unbelief. It actually says the opposite and because everyone has a freewill, they will most likely use it, even though they may use the excuse, "Oh the Lord told me."
It's sort of like the case where a woman killed her children in the most gruesome manner and then made the excuse that God had told her to. That's simply absurd and she sets a horrendous example of other Christians. You have to broaden your view and look at the big picture, not looking at one group and simply wrinkling your nose.
Again. We're not blaming God, or targeting christianity. It's an argument over whether religion is bad. Did religion cause these killings?
But sure, alot of crime and killings were nothing to do with religion, too. Maybe this woman would have killed her kids even if she'd never heard of god. Who knows
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Now I really hate when people say this. Religion in general is basically about belief. Religion is an argument never won, a theory never proven, and that's the way it is. If someone believes that God can heal their child then that should be seen as a beautiful thing. They're putting faith in something that brings them hope, and even though it may not be real to you, it's real to them. It's not a waste of life. There is so much more to life than scientific proof this and scientific proof that. It's silly to go through life and not have anything to believe in, even if it is the unseen. Some people put their faith in witchcraft, which is also part of the unseen. Some people put their faith in material things. Some people believe in the zodiac and the horoscope. Do you think all those things are a waste of time? Do you think it's all stupid?
I think horoscopes are stupid, sure
But in a way, seperate from all specific examples and completely unrelated, isn't blind faith in something you've never seen any evidence supporting, to the extent you throw your whole life and your actions towards it, a little unwise?
I think you can have a perfectly good life without having to believe in a higher entity.
And what if, the woman believes so strongly that god will heal her child, that she shuns modern medicine, resulting in the death of her child? Is that beautiful? This has been the case many times.
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Christians are taught to be well-spirited people that love everyone. Now, that may not be the case with all people that share the same religion, but you can't just point out all Christians as lousy because the once you have encountered in "the crusades" have treated you or others around you badly. You have to open up the mind and see things how others see it and experience things in a wider view before you judge it.
The bible say that homosexuals are an abomination.
And it is true that alot of christians try to ban books that are 'sacreligious', like Harry Potter. Not that I would mine if harry potter was banned
I also saw a movie which people were quoting the bible to say that black people 'aren't part of god's flock' or something, although I can't quite remember so I don't know for sure...
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I watched them closely, bitter and resentful, fearing that they would come over to me to make me feel guilty for being there to watch the scene. But they did not see me. They were busy going up to the people in the midst of the warzone. I paid attention to a younger girl, a very pretty girl who looked to be in her late teens. She had a bible in her hand and she strolled along, looking for someone who wasn't too drunk to understand what she had to offer. I watched her pick a target and as she approached him, he spit right in her face, seeing what she held in her hand. I was stunned. He yelled at her, something along the lines of "******* Jesus Freak." That was when the riot got a lot worse. The atheist group in the area came in with signs, disgusting, horrific signs of Jesus on the cross, being eaten by maggots, picture of angels with their throats slit. It was disgusting. Obsenity was all I heard from the mouth's of those wicked people, and mind you, I'm not pointing my finger at all atheists, just these ones in general. I watched as the Christians were driven away, only a few people leaving with them, as if they didn't have a right to be there. It hurt me, and I went home with shame. I felt disgusting, watching that happening, being a highly thoughtful person for anyone in need of help. It just felt so wrong.
You're right, some athiests are bad people, but so are some people of every religion.
Does religion affect whether people are bad, or do bad people fall under every catagory, regardless?
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To sum it up:
The point of Christians to be on this earth is not to enjoy it while it's here. The belief is that heaven is what we will come to enjoy in our afterlife, and we don't have to work ourselves to death to get into heaven. As long as we believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior and follow in his footsteps, we will be safe in his arms. Mind you, but I'm speaking in the terms of where my religion stands. There are other types of Christianity.
There is not one person at my church who would look at a psychic and go, "Eugh I hate people like you." They wouldn't even think it, and I can say that with confidence. Christians aren't here to persecute, and you can't put full blame on Christians of today because of the crusades that happened so long ago. So ask yourself this. What is the belief system and the accomplishments of Satanists? What does the atheist group I told about above do to help society grow in a positive way? Is every religion to blame for something that went wrong in history, or should all heads be turned to the Christians every time there's trouble?
First off: Satanists = Athiests.
Satanists believe in the devil, who athiests believe is just as false as God.
All heads aren't turned to Christians either. At the moment muslims are getting alot of the blame, even though most of them have nothing to do with terrorism. In universities in australia they are putting in special areas where muslims can wash their feet before they prey, in the bathrooms. But these have to be locked with a keycode so that the muslims don't get bashed while they're in there... As I said there are alot of bad people out there.
And I know that your particular sect of christianity is a somewhat less extreme type. I'm pretty sure I know just what sort of people go to your church, in fact alot better than you think I know (if that makes sense ).
But strictly, (and this is not directed to you personally or anything) the bible does put forward the guidelines to go to heaven, saying how we are born with sin, and the acts defined as sin are performed daily by many people nowadays. But then of course, you can just ask for forgiveness.
If only that were true. Go out and do whatever you want, and then just ask for permission to get into heaven? Sweet deal.
Of course, everyone has their own interpretation of the bible.
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John says to live above hell.
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