|
|
Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
|
posted February 18, 2007 11:40 PM |
bonus applied. |
Edited by Nidhgrin at 23:51, 18 Feb 2007.
|
A little mental challenge...
Proof
There is no scientific proof that god exists. There is also no scientific proof that god does not exist.
Howcome, you may ask? Because events in the universe, that are not caused by natural phenomena that follow the laws of metaphysics, are yet to be discovered. This leads to the conclusion that if god exists, it must be a supernatural entity (and thus can not be verified by scientifical means). Being supernatural also implies god would not be able to interfere in, or interact with the universe as it is (if necessary, I can explain this a little further).
Why are we here?
God may not be able to do anything inside the universe, but if a god-like entity exists, it might be the creator of the universe, many people believe... Thruth is though, that as human beings we seek a meaning behind things, and try to find explanations for past and present events. As depressing as this may sound, as much as we seek meaning in life, we give meaning to it as well. If a bolt of lightning strikes you tomorrow, it isn't because it was meant to happen, it's because you were the easiest path for the lightning bolt to follow, after the discharge. It's the same with all existential questions. There's no reason behind them, they are facts.
Faith
Yes it's true, faith is a powerful tool. And whether god exists of not, religion unites people and lets them work together towards a common goal. Though most religions have a solid ethical base, when people put their own free will aside, and come to see religion as 'the thruth', that same faith can be the fuel to immoral actions on a society wide scale. It's not hard to find examples of that... Think about Hinduism, where the lower classes are automatically repressed, the crusades, the inquisition, and more recent immoral events inspired by religion such as Muslim terrorism, and the American war against terror.
Freedom
When it's not certain that god exists, and if god exists does not have any power (unless you refer to the united actions of religious followers), and there are certain dangers connected to institutionalizing religion in that people start adopting 'the lessons' of the religion as the thruth, do you really need to believe in god?
I say no. For me it's very simple. Even if god would exist, in any kind of form, I would still not 'believe', and most certainly would not take words from people who claim they're his(or her?) representatives, for the thruth.
Find peace within yourself, and put your faith in your family, your friends, and in life in general. Look for the good in other people, and find your own purpose in this universe as a free human being... not as a religious slave.
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
posted February 21, 2007 07:25 AM |
|
|
@fortress fan:
Quote:
Do not leave God. I don't believe in most off the old testament (Genesis is petty symbolic to me), but God has created this extremely advanced world, thats for sure.
um, why is it for sure? because someone told you so?
I really should have taken psychology.  Maybe then I could get an idea as to why people would much rather believe it was some magical man up in the clouds who wished us into being, than scientific theory and evidence.
Speaking of evidence;
Quote:
Proof
There is no scientific proof that god exists. There is also no scientific proof that god does not exist.
Howcome, you may ask? Because events in the universe, that are not caused by natural phenomena that follow the laws of metaphysics, are yet to be discovered. This leads to the conclusion that if god exists, it must be a supernatural entity (and thus can not be verified by scientifical means). Being supernatural also implies god would not be able to interfere in, or interact with the universe as it is (if necessary, I can explain this a little further).
yeah, there's no proof against god (well there is, just the statement of 'god' has been changed to allow for it hundreds of times, but that's a different story), but there doesn't need to be. You don't need evidence to prove something doesn't exist. Innocent until proven guilty. There is no god until you can prove there is. (proof denies faith... bull**** to that, if there was proof i'd sure have some faith )
It's like saying the boogeyman exists. Well, prove that he doesn't exist!
"oh, well, no ones ever seen him."
"there's no evidence that he exists."
or even
"it's impossible for him to exist in our world."
well, what can i say 
@Nid: Nice post, I think alot of it is very true 
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted February 21, 2007 09:26 AM |
|
|
Quote:
@Nid: Nice post, I think alot of it is very true
Yes, agreed, excellent post that sums up a lot of good points nicely.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
|
|
posted March 11, 2007 06:23 PM |
|
Edited by Pomo at 18:27, 11 Mar 2007.
|
I'm lacking sleep, as the kind message from HC tells me lol, so I apologise if this post is lacking in clarity, I just want to add my perspective on these matters.
First I think that religion is better thought of as simply another type of belief system - on a par with (and often interrelated with) science, nationalism, democracy, communism, capitalism, etc etc. I don't wish to be dismissive with this statement, simply elaborate a point.
Like any other belief system religions depend on the way in which we perceive the world, and the ways in which we perceive the world are largely prior to cognition. An object as we perceive it is not simply 'there' but rather depends on our mind to filter out a very large amount of the raw data that our senses receive, categorise part of what we recieve as a discrete 'thing', evaluate that thing and so on. This is referred to as the theory-ladenness of observation, and implies that we are fundamentally incapable of perceiving the world simply 'as is'. For this reason I would say that the argument about the truthfulness of scientific or religious belief is largely pointless; scientists also constantly make leaps of faith in their work - again this is not an attack on the validity of science, I'm sure nearly all scientists are aware of the fact. I have never seen first hand proof of many of the things that I take to be scientific truth, but I nonetheless accept them because I a) have no option but to have faith that I am not being duped and b) my current belief system is useful to me as a simplification of the world that I live in .
Do I think that the end of religion would be a good thing? A bad thing? Well, neither really - I don't think it would make much difference to the amount of atrocities etc etc very much at all. A number of people have mentioned various repugnant things done in the name of X religion at some time, others have listed various others done by Y religion, or atheists. I'm sure many people in this thread would also point out many positives that their religion has lead them to, or they have seen in others. The point for me is that religion has very little to do with it - it is the basic human psychology that leads to these events - not religion. Such psychology manifests itself also in other mass belief systems - the most prominent partial substitute for religion in my view is nationalism - both attempt to provide a sense of continuing existence by connecting the individual to a larger entity - simply that in nationalism the emphasis is shifted from God to 'culture' and 'nation'. The folk who wrap themselves in the flag and beat up Lebanese people are hardly any better than the folk who burn heretics at the stake.
Edit: Just for the record, I am personally atheist, but I do think that requires a leap of faith.
____________
linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage
|
|
homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
|
|
posted March 26, 2007 11:33 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Gods used to be all-powerful, and completely in control, but if you've ever watched the news, or even looked outside your window, you can tell that if there is a God out there, he must be either really bad at his job, or simply turning the other way.
Well that's the last u said is a bit wrong i think.Even if there is a God like the God our church says don't u think that it would be wrong to put its "hand" every time we ,humans,do something very bad?
Me? i believe in God or better in something upper.That i don't believe and i'm strongly against to,are religions.Religions seperate humans.All religions have a purpose.They just want us strongly believe in all they say.And if u do that ,u are becoming weak.And if u are weak they can handle u much more easily
But of course that's my opinion.
____________
I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
|
|
wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
|
|
posted March 27, 2007 12:10 PM |
|
|
I just have a question to all you believers out there:
Why doesn't God destroy everything bad if he is so damn allmighty? And please don't mention Satan, it stand in the Bible that he shall not be compared to God!
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted March 27, 2007 01:06 PM |
|
|
because we have free will and god cannot intefere with free will.
Cannot? He's all powerful, so maybe
god will not intefere with free will.
Well, I guess we shouldn't deign to understand the complex mindset of the Lord so much to predict his future actions, so maybe
god has not yet, but has the power to do so in the future if he wishes, however he has said before that he doesnt wish to interfere with free will.
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted March 27, 2007 01:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Why doesn't God destroy everything bad if he is so damn allmighty?
Of course everything settles down to power... that is just a human flaw
How shall I explain better? Well, I hope you'll understand this "explanation", that there are some rules that have to be followed. (of course this is just a simplistic explanation, just to make you understand).
When you do something bad, you're "closer to the Devil".. it's like a challenge: Devil wants people (and wants to "prove" to God that most people are on his side) and God loves people (but when people do something wrong, they are in the Devil's hands, so God doesn't interfere, it was their own free will that caused them to be "evil").
Just my view 
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted March 27, 2007 01:28 PM |
|
|
Been watching Constantine?
Good show.
But seriously the whole Devil/God thing is ridiculous... The devil just sums up the old wives tale. Every time you do something bad they want you to think of some scary creepy guy worse than the boogy man who will eat you if you do it again!!
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted March 27, 2007 01:37 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Been watching Constantine?
Not even heard of it
Quote:
But seriously the whole Devil/God thing is ridiculous... The devil just sums up the old wives tale. Every time you do something bad they want you to think of some scary creepy guy worse than the boogy man who will eat you if you do it again!!
I wasn't referring to the fact that you have to be scared of the Devil. It isn't that simple.
When you do something evil, you are "controlled" by the Devil to some extent (like Puppet Mastering in Heroes ). Even if you are "evil inside" and have evil thoughts, but are 'scared' of the devil's suffering, you still won't be able to get to Heaven, because your own "unconscious" spirit (evil) will get you to Hell (i.e you WILL choose to go to Hell, Heaven is inappropiate for someone like you). Of course this is just talking in general (i.e 'you' doesn't mean yourself, but any person which can be like that).
Truly evil persons love to see others suffer. And thus they like Hell. God loves everyone, but if they turn their backs to Him, then they are choosing the Devil instead. (Satan whatever)
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted March 27, 2007 02:16 PM |
|
|
I thought that it was temptation that turned people to the devil, not them embracing one over the other? And that hell was made as punishment, not as a nirvana for people of evil minds?
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted March 27, 2007 02:40 PM |
|
|
|
Depends what you really understand from punishment. I think it means "go away from God" because you're not like Him
|
|
Spectrum
Famous Hero
Plan B
|
|
posted March 27, 2007 04:58 PM |
|
|
Well, maybe, God wants us to learn to do the right things by ourselves. Yeah, sure He could just snap His fingers and poof, everything bad would be gone. But when would humans learn? They would do the same things wrong again. He is trying to teach us.
And He could ofcourse make everyone nice and perfect, but then we wouldn't be human anymore...
Humans are the people He loves. He doesn't want to turn us into something else, something without free will.
____________
Aculias is like the male nipple of HC, TNT being the other one -Baklava
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted March 28, 2007 08:40 AM |
|
|
"Then he created man.
Out of some dust, he could have just said 'Let there be man' and there would have been man, definately.
But no, he thought 'I'll take some of this' and there was man, out of some dust, just because he can. He's god, he can do anything.
Then the man said what about a woman or something, you gonna create that out of some dust?
No out of your ribs
You can't do that
OW there she is"
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted March 28, 2007 11:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
But when would humans learn?
Never. Just like now.
Perhaps, one day... But too much blood is going to be spilled until then...
Quote:
He doesn't want to turn us into something else, something without free will.
Yeah but everyone else does
God is ok. But theoretically, since he controls what's going to happen and where, our free will can't do much, now can it?
Besides, God sure does some weird things... "I never hated God, but God loved the people I hated..." - Marilyn Manson. Unless of course you believe in heaven and hell...
First you're a kid, blissfully unaware of the world around you... Then, when you start understanding some things, you fall in love, and forget about everything bad about the world for some time... When that wears out, you get kids, so you devote yourself to them completely... Those events buy you some temporary sanity... Etcetera, etcetera...
It's all a giant joke which we aren't getting...
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Spectrum
Famous Hero
Plan B
|
|
posted March 30, 2007 08:04 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Dream on.... Dream on.... Just dream on!
Hm. Maybe you're right...It was just a theory anyway
Quote:
It's all a giant joke which we aren't getting...
And the ones that do get it we just call mad, right?
____________
Aculias is like the male nipple of HC, TNT being the other one -Baklava
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted March 31, 2007 04:35 PM |
|
|
lol we call them agnostic
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
Spectrum
Famous Hero
Plan B
|
|
posted March 31, 2007 07:17 PM |
|
Edited by Spectrum at 21:03, 31 Mar 2007.
|
Quote:
lol we call them agnostic
Haha, that's right
The thing is, no one knows why God doesn't make this world a better place, although he could, since He's almighty.
I believe in God. I really do. But since I've read the posts in this thread, I've began to wonder about the questions posed.
Like this one, why doesn't God just make the world a better place with His might. I have a theory, which I alredy posted. But do I actually know for sure? Does anyone know for sure? No.
There are actually people who get paid for thinking about this stuff. And if they can't come up with anything but very suspicious theories, I don't think I have even a chance of realizing what it's all about.
I've never before questioned my faith, and I'm not going to now. However, all these unanswered questions make me wonder what God is up to. I don't want to think about the possibility that there is no God and it's all just science. But reading all these posts that suggest so make me want answers. I've been brought up in a very religious family, so I can't accept that there is no God, just like that. I want anwers. But there are none.
So it's come down to wether I want to believe in God or scince.
Faith or the answers I long for.
I do not want to decide for science. Still I want anwers. So I've come to one explanation which, at least to me, makes sense:
These problems, questions, are a test from God. He wants to see whose faith is strong enough to believe in Him, although it seems like he doesn't exist. He wants to see who trusts him so completely that, even though there is no evidence of His existence, they follow Him and His word.
I think I've made my point.
And those who choose to believe in scince, like you, TA... I understand you. I do.
____________
Aculias is like the male nipple of HC, TNT being the other one -Baklava
|
|
homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
|
|
posted April 01, 2007 01:48 AM |
|
|
Quote:
And also if your raised by a religious family (like I am) you should still be able to make your own choice, if not it's criminal (in myh opinion) as free rights and thoughts are a must for any country.
I made my own choise against my parents likening, i'm living with my aunt now because of religion... (could not bear my parents anymore with their religion addiction.)
well yeah i agree with in a way but what i think of u(and only u) is that in the beggining at least when u started to wondering about God and religions u did it in a way of reaction.
I don't say that your opinions are just a form of reaction but i think that are a result of reaction.I think that for the most of us, all begin in our "hot" youth when we wanna go to the "other side".
But at least i think that reaction does good.I don't believe neither to any religions,but i believe in God or something upper and difficult for us to understand.
____________
I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
|
|
Spectrum
Famous Hero
Plan B
|
|
posted April 01, 2007 02:44 PM |
|
Edited by Spectrum at 14:45, 01 Apr 2007.
|
Ashrah,
I understand your points. And I respect your opinion. I believe in science, too. The events of the bible, to me, aren't anything I really believe happened exactly like the bible says it happened. Especially the old testament is pretty much symbolic.
But I'm not willing to give up everything I'm raised to believe in, not yet. I want to believe that there is some good will in the world. Something that makes people do the right things. The Christians, well, we call it God.
And yes, I believe I will go to heaven, but I also know that it doesn't really matter, because if I'm dead, I'm dead and that's it. It's not like I'll be floating in some eternal blackness thinking "Well this sucks. There is no heaven"
And lastly, what you said about the sexism of religion, is true. Fortunately I'm protestant (Lutheran) so in my religion we treat men and women equally, for example we have female priests. The fact that the cahtolic church doesn't allow them is, in my opinion, just stupid God never said "Don't let the women become priests or bishops or anything, really! Whatever you do, don't let them!
But yes, I don't believe in every single detail of the bible and my religion, but the main idea I still respect.
____________
Aculias is like the male nipple of HC, TNT being the other one -Baklava
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
