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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 30, 2006 03:09 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 17:15, 12 Sep 2006.
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The Perfect Stronghold
Ok, people, I think this Nival's orc ignoring thing has gone way too far. I have a suggestion: fans of the world, unite. In this topic we can all join ideas to create a perfect orc town. That is perhaps impossible, but it's certainly worth a try, and it's better than everyone making their own Strongholds. Critics will, of course, be needed, for our goal should be to create a Stronghold that everyone will like, but still, a little different from heroes 3 one. If nothing else, it will at least be fun.
We need to start from something. We absolutely must include orcs. Behemoths and goblins would be perfect, as well as ogres or trolls. Cyclopses sound like a good choice to be included, too. As fliers, I think we should put in wyverns or wyvern riders instead of thunderbirds, but that's just my opinion. You all know that every town must have at least one flier, one ranged units and one spellcaster. Mounted units are also recommended.
What do you say? Post any ideas you have, they might prove great.
EDIT: THE MASTER POST IS ON PAGE 8 - CURRENT STRONGHOLD STATS WILL BE DISPLAYED THERE
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 30, 2006 06:19 PM |
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Hmmm ... according to the developers, they are currently working on towns for expansion packs. I would be very surprised if an Orc/Stronghold town was not in the drawing already.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 30, 2006 07:08 PM |
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Well yeah but they're surely not gone too far already, and it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't even started anything about stronghold yet. And all they would have to do after what I'm thinking for us to do would be to make 3d models and animations. Making a game for the fans and not listening to their proposals is simply retarded, so it would be logical for them to consider this. IF we do this right. Are you with me?
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2006 07:12 PM |
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It might help reading few pages in at this forum. There were few ideas of it aleady.
This bring out a interesting question, do the dev read the forum? Isn't the dev team European, which I am sure most will not be native english speaker. And if they do read, is this the forum they read?
But anyway, as long as people are having fun with creating ideas, its all good.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 01, 2006 06:32 AM |
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Stronghold Creatures:
Level 1:
Goblin Brigand: Shooter, No Melee Penalty, Moat Crosser/Wall Climber
Hobgoblin Brigand: Giantslayer (Deals more damage vs. large creatures)
Level 2:
Orc Berserker: Enraged, Berserk (Lose control of the berserker, it attacks the closest enemy with a double attack)
Orc Dervish: No Enemy Retaliation
Level 3:
Wolf Rider: Packhunter (more wolves, more damage)
Warg Raider: Taunt (Causes that enemy to move/ attack the wargs), Unlimited Retaliation
Level 4:
Wyvern: Flyer, Poison Strike (Similiar to the Mighty Gorgon's Death Gaze)
Greater Wyvern: Crystal Scales (Immune to Harm Touch, Cursing attack, Weakening Strike etc.)
Level 5:
Shaman: Caster, Detonate Enchantment (Destroys enchantement and damages the stack)
Shaman Elder: alcibiades's idea for summon spirits is an awesome idea for the shaman elder
Level 6:
Troll: Shooter, Area Attack, Ballistics (Attack towers/walls)
Battle Troll: Regeneration
Level 7:
Giant Mastadon: Trample (Deals damage to units as it moves along them/through them), Load Goblins (Allows goblins to shoot from inside the canopy on their backs 20 goblins/mastadon)
Dire Mastadon: War Drums (-20% initiative to all enemies or 2%/1 weeks worth of mastadons)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 01, 2006 02:30 PM |
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Quote:
Well yeah but they're surely not gone too far already, and it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't even started anything about stronghold yet. And all they would have to do after what I'm thinking for us to do would be to make 3d models and animations. Making a game for the fans and not listening to their proposals is simply retarded, so it would be logical for them to consider this. IF we do this right. Are you with me?
According from what I've heard some time ago, they were working on expansion towns, and where too far in the progress to incorporate fan ideas. Furthermore, there has already been published tens if not hundreds of proposals for Ord / Barbarian / Stronghold towns on this forum as well as the Nival forum. I'm quite positive that they cannot and will not read through them all in order to try to satisfy what will no matter what always end up as being a small group of the fans. However, that's just my beliefs, don't let that keep you back if you wan't to go on with the project - I just don't want you to end up being dissapointed if you invest a lot of time in the project.
Quote:
It might help reading few pages in at this forum. There were few ideas of it aleady.
This bring out a interesting question, do the dev read the forum? Isn't the dev team European, which I am sure most will not be native english speaker. And if they do read, is this the forum they read?
But anyway, as long as people are having fun with creating ideas, its all good.
The developers are Russian, and of course at least some of the team speak english.
And no, they do not read this forum. There is an official Nival forum available through the official homepage, which in theory might be checked by the developers - however, I doubt that they take time to read through all the posts there - there are more users than on this forum.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 02, 2006 01:21 PM |
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Well if we make an excellent Stronghold here we can simply post it in Nival's forum. And the ideas of a small group of fans are probably better than the ideas of a small group of people who make Heroes to get cash. Anyway, even if they don't consider our proposals (and I have a feeling that will happen), it will still be a cool faction and we can always find someone to mod the Nival's Stronghold so that it looks like ours, if we feel the need.
SBlister, I like how you did the wyverns, although I think poison strike is a bit overpowered for them. How about the Poison Strike functions like the one the assassins have, but more powerful?
Goblins and hobgoblins should drop the "brigand" in their names, it would perhaps be too long.
Orc dervish? I don't want islamic fundamentalists knocking on my door complaining they are represented as orcs. Orc berserkers are good, but think of another name as an upgrade, please.
We should definitely drop the wargs. Connection to lord of the rings never worked in heroes. Wolf riders are a classic, I think it'll work, but wargs don't stand a chance.
Shamans - ultra uber awesome. At least I think they are.
Trolls are cool. Perhaps the upgrade should be War trolls, in honour of heroes 2.
Finally, I really really prefer behemoths over mastodonts. Maybe they should be something like:
BEHEMOTH: Trample (excellent idea, SBlister), Rage (ignores 50% enemy defense)
ELDER BEHEMOTH: Trample, Greater Rage (ignores 80% enemy defense), Devour (Deals 200 damage to a target friendly stack, but heals the behemoths for 200 hit points)
Please continue with the suggestions.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 02, 2006 11:22 PM |
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In retrospect, yeah the wyverns's poison strike shud be something like the assassin's.
Gotcha, so its goblins and hobgoblins now...
Well we dont wanna upset the fundamentalists now do we? dervish to veteran berserker or berserker veteran? i dunno which sounds better. cant be chieftains cuz if every orcs a chieftain, who's are the soldiers?
Warg Rider...Dire Wolf Rider? Some big ol' crazy eyed, mouth full of teeth big ass wolf that wud scare the pants of lil red riding hood...
thanks on the shamans... cudnt have done it without alcibiades...
I thought Battle Troll since theres already War Dancers, give a lil spice to the names... i am not a big fan of the cyclops and i miss the trolls throwing rocks from heroes 2 so why not incorporate both ideas...
I think the level 7 is where we differ because I can't stand those behemoths... they remind me of King Kong with claws. The devour ability is a bit overpowered... i dont think it shud heal the behemoths and i dont think that ability shud work on the undead, demons or large creatures... theres no way a behemoth's gonna swallow a dragon or hydra whole...maybe it cud work like the death gaze, chance to kill a percentage of the stack depending on the number of behemoths...
but i'm sticking with the giant mastadons... since its a democracy we'll let the majority decide...behemoths or mastadons...
lets work towards making a good enough stronghold that nival might say damn those are some good ass ideas...
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Patrel
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 03, 2006 01:31 AM |
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I don't see how they can be working on expansions already when they haven't even finished the game by making it stable enough to play.
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It's beer-o-clock, where the hell's my riot?! - John Crichton
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 03, 2006 12:42 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:43, 03 Jul 2006.
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Ok, first of all: Patrel - the game is stable enough. And Heroes IV was total crap but it got 2 expansions and a few dozens of patches. Henceforth, there'll be at least one expansion for Heroes V.
SBlister, I think Berserker Veteran would be better but I'm not sure either.
About riders... How about simply Wolf - Dire Wolf? Wolves are too proud to be mounted anyway.
You're right about the Battle Troll.
I agree about the Behemoths/Mastodonts. Let the people decide. Personally I think both are awesome but Mastodonts are a radically new idea in heroes, while the Behemoths are a classic. Behemoths were one of my favourite creatures from Heroes III though...
By the way, if you load goblins into a Mastodont, can you take them out of it in the middle of a battle? And if one Mastodont in a stack is loaded and the others aren't, does the stack shoot or fights with melee? I think goblin loading would cause much technical problems. And devour isn't overpowered because you destroy YOUR OWN units to heal the Behemoths. It's basically transfering hit points.
Ok people, please vote for either Behemoths or Mastodonts.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 03, 2006 04:23 PM |
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Just wolves? Wouldn't that be too much like hellhounds... And wolves would be relegated to level 1 units... With the riders on it, IMHO, it would look cooler...
Oh thanks for clarifying on the devour ability.
So yeah ppl, Mastadons or Behemoths? It's up to you!
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 03, 2006 04:29 PM |
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For the Load Goblins ability, you decide that during the tactics phase. about 10-20 goblins/mastadon... those goblins who are mounted are basically protected from harm. the mastadon has its own turn and the mounted goblins have their own turn to attack. any remaining goblins on the field attack at their own turn as well. any time a mastadon dies, a random percentage of mounted goblins bail and join the stack of goblins already on the field. I hope that answers your questions
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 03, 2006 08:47 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 20:49, 03 Jul 2006.
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Ah, now I get it. It's quite a good idea, really.
Again, you are right. So how about Wolf Marauder - Wolf Ravager or something like that for the wolf riders?
Or we could simply put centaurs instead of goblins riding wolves
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 04, 2006 04:48 AM |
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Wolf Marauder and Dire Marauders sounds awesome. C
There's a pattern in which each races has a mounted unit or a unit that could easily carry a rider like the cavaliers for the haven, unicorn for sylvan, dark raider (i seriously think grim raiders should be renamed dark champions) for dungeon, nightmare for inferno, deathknights were meant for necropolis but they used the wraiths (which are visually the second coolest units in the game) and none for the academy because its all just constructs, mages, and summoned creatures. Thats why i think the wolf riders should stay and the centaurs go off with the dwarves, thunderbirds and frost giants and form their own town... but thats just me.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 04, 2006 01:16 PM |
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Quote:
Ah, now I get it. It's quite a good idea, really.
Again, you are right. So how about Wolf Marauder - Wolf Ravager or something like that for the wolf riders?
Or we could simply put centaurs instead of goblins riding wolves
Wolf Marauder- Wolf Ravager sounds really cool, but I think that is should be orcs and not goblins that are riding the wolves. The way I see it the Goblins are used by the orcs a simple minions and they shouldn't be allowed to ride a wolf. I've also come up with a different creature line up, one more subjected to the racial theme(which I support) that has been used.
level 1
Goblin Minion- Loyalty (No negative morale)
Gbblin Henchman- Loyalty, Overwhelm (Activated ability, Goblin Henchmen pile onto enemy, do less damage, but decrease initiative of enemy, succes depends on stack size)
Level 2
Orc Lancer- Shooter
Orc Javelineer- Shooter, No Melee penalty
level 3
Orc Warrior- Enraged
Orc Berserker-Enraged, No Retaliation, Double Attack
level 4
Wolf Marauder- Raiding(Wolf Marauder has ?% chance to steal 2-4 gold per creature killed)
Wolf Ravager- Raiding, Packhunter(As stated by SBlister)
Level 5
Orc Elder- Shooter
Orc Shaman- Shooter, Caster
Level 6
Paokai Rider (Those Wyvrenlike beasts which are shown in Dark Messiah. As seen here http://media.pc.ign.com/media/736/736193/img_3643062.html)- Flyer, Immune to Blind
Battle Paokai- Flyer, Immune to Blind, Infectious Bite (?% chance to infect target with disease(Quite similar to poison))
Level 7
Behemoth- Siegebeast (Behemoths are not effected by moats and are able to damage walls and towers), Rage (Defence redcution)
War Behemoth- Seigebeast, Rage, Armourplating(Reduced damage from missiles)
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 04, 2006 02:29 PM |
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Ok. The centaurs have that nomadic habit to always be in another town (warlock in heroes II, rampart in heroes III, might in heroes IV, and now some icy dwarven town in heroes V).
I agree the wraiths are the second coolest looking units in the game. The first ones are actually black and death knights. 
By the way, halflings have the giantslayer ability, not goblins. And if the Shamans summon spectres, think of the morale for your living units (it'll be like -2 or -3).
So now our creature lineup looks something like this (I edited it a bit, tell me if there's something I should change):
-Lvl 1: Goblin
These wretched little lizard-like creatures are used in the orc armies because of their speed and cheapness. They compensate their low health with their ability to climb walls and high initiative.
Abilities: Wall Climbing (can move through walls, but are still affected by moats)
-Upg. lvl 1: Hobgoblin
Hobgoblins are more experienced than ordinary goblins. They are experts in fighting with their maces and can even stun opponents with them.
Abilities: Wall Climbing, Stun (10% chance to stun an opponent for one turn)
-Lvl 2: Berserker
Berserkers come from the wildest orc tribes, and as such can hardly be controlled. They sometimes fall into a berserking rage (that is how they got their name) and attack the nearest enemy twice as ferocious as they would if they were calm.
Abilities: Enraged, Berserk (20% chance the berserker will automatically attack the nearest enemy with a double attack. Cannot be triggered if they cannot approach any enemy.)
-Upg. lvl 2: Berserker Veteran
These orcs are a little older than ordinary berserker and have already proven their battle prowess. They have gained much strength, and the enemies find themselves powerless to retaliate against their brutal strikes.
Abilities: Enraged, Berserk, No Enemy Retaliation
-Lvl 3: Wolf Marauder
Since childhood, some orcs are teached how to ride wolves. Many of them fail and end up crippled or dead, but those who succeed in learning this skill become Wolf Marauders, mounted units of the orc armies. Since their nature becomes similar to their mounts', they fight more fiercely if they attack in larger groups.
Abilities: Packhunter (Every Marauder in the stack gains +1 damage for every 25 wolves in the stack. Example: those in a stack of 53 wolves get +2 damage each)
Comment: to prevent this ability to be overpowered, marauders' base growth must not be more than 10 (perhaps 8 would be best)
-Upg. Lvl 3: Dire Marauder
Professional beastmasters get to ride Dire wolves, stronger and faster than ordinary ones. They are fast and agile enough to always get to retaliate and can taunt foes so that they attack them instead of someone more important at the moment.
Abilities: Packhunter, Endless Retaliation, Taunt (Causes a selected enemy stack to attack or move towards the Dire Marauders)
-Lvl 4: Wyvern
These creatures, related to dragons, are often trained by orcs to serve in their armies. They are fast and can poison foes, which makes them very formidable in battle.
Abilities: Flyer, Poison Strike (Poisons the attacked enemy stacks for 4 turns. Strength of the poison depends on the number of Wyverns.)
-Upg. lvl 4: Greater Wyvern
Greater wyverns are naturally armoured with crystal scales, which protect them from enemy units' special attacks.
Abilities: Flyer, Poison Strike, Crystal Scales (protects the wyvern from special attacks such as Harm Touch, Shield Bash, Weakening Strike, Poison etc.)
-Lvl 5: Shaman
Shamans are priests of the orc gods. They call upon the mysterious spirits that dwell in the inter-realms to aid them in dire situations.
Abilities: Caster (Summon Elementals, spellpower depends on the number of Shamans), Detonate Enchantment (Destroys a target enemy stack's enchantment and deals damage to it. Inflicted damage is |Enchantment spell level| x |Number of Shamans|, costs no mana but can only be cast once per combat )
-Upg. lvl 5: Shaman Elder
Shamans who serve their gods willingly and unquestioningly for a long time become Shaman Elders. They have access to more powerful spells and are better trained for combat.
Abilities: Caster (Summon Elementals, Weakness, Slow), Spirit Call (Deals |Number of Shaman Elders| x 3 damage to an enemy summoned stack, costs no mana but can only be cast twice per combat), Detonate Enchantment
-Lvl 6: Troll
Trolls are huge brutal creatures who compensate their lack of intelligence with pure strength. They pull boulders out of the ground and toss them at the enemy or his castle.
Abilities: Shooter, Ballistics (can attack enemy walls and towers), No Melee Penalty, Regeneration
-Upg. lvl 6: Battle Troll
These trolls are trained by the brutal orc beastmasters to use all their strength to fulfill their masters' expectations. They are able to toss larger boulders at the enemies in addition to their excellent battle prowess.
Abilities: Shooter, Ballistics, Area Attack (when uses ranged attacks, strikes a 4x4 area; passive ability), No Melee Penalty, Regeneration
-Lvl 7: Mastodont or Behemoth?
I thought that the orc racial ability should be Mercenarism - you can give gold to your units to improve their morale for a week. Heroes with Basic Mercenarism, of course, need to pay more than heroes with Expert or Ultimate Mercenarism. It is only possible to pay your creatures in an orc town, in a special building (Mercenary Post). The more gold you give, the higher your troops' morale. Of course, larger and higher level stacks require more cash than smaller or lower level ones. So is this idea good? The details still aren't developed. I'll think about them if you like the mercenary concept.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 04, 2006 02:33 PM |
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Sorry, waroverlord, I didn't see your post. I don't think goblins should be loyal (I mean, they're goblins, for God's sake), but the overwhelm ability sounds good. What do you think, SBlister? Should we give the overwhelm ability to goblins?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 04, 2006 09:34 PM |
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I admit that loyalty for Goblins is doubtable, but you can also see it this way. The only allies Goblins have are the Orcs, they are the only ones who don't kill them on sight, which is something to be a bit gratefull for. Anyway, it was the only thing I could come up with at the time. But I would wholeheartily agree if you would change the stun of your Hobgoblins with my Overwhelm. I think stun would be overused, as there are already 3 creatures who use stun.
Another point, it's my opinion that your line up is a bit faulty. If it were up to me, I'd move the shamen and the trolls down a level and the wyvern up to level 6. I think that wyverns are far to advanced a creature to be put on level 4. I also think that they should be ridden by Orcs. The way I see it, if Orcs released uncontrolled creatures on a battlefield, there would be no predicting what it would attack. It could just as likely turn on its masters. If you'd have them ridden, they could be controlled and their attacks are far less likely to turn on their allies.
And if you hadn't noticed, I would vote for a Behemoth. (I also think these should be ridden, same arguments as above.)
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 04, 2006 11:08 PM |
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I liked the way you listed everything Baklava... I think we shud periodically put an updated list of our ideas.
I'll answer Baklava's post first:
1. Goblins-I think we should give them a percentage chance of dodging the moat, though the stun ability (i feel) is already employed by 2 haven creatures. giantslayer is perfect as they can be used against large creatures and it's a new ability altogether.
2. Orcs- My take on berserk is actually an activated ability like the rakshasa's dash. once the orcs are close enough, you click the icon and the orcs go into a berserked state. they attack the closest enemy with two attacks but they remained berserked (ie. you lose control of them) for 2-3 turns. veteran berserkers are better trained and you lose control of them for one turn less than berserkers.
3. Wolves are perfect.
4. wyverns are perfect.
5. for the shaman, acibiades idea was to summon a group of spirits from a dead stack. i dont know if the idea was to summon a group of creatures, or if the spirits attack somebody, or augment/curse a stack (ie the spirits can move from stack to stack randomly empowering/ cursing them and can be removed thru either cleansing or banish)
6. for the trolls since they are tossing boulders it should be an area attack anyways and the battle trolls have regeneration so that gives the player the insentive to upgrade them. i think area attack should be 3x3. i see your decision to move no melee penalty from the goblins to the trolls...makes sense, they are big brutes after all...
To war-overlord:
1. goblin minion/henchmen- i think goblin to hobgoblin is better because of the size difference... loyalty is similiar to the minotaurs bravery... overwhelm looks like a melee version of warding arrow...
2. i'd rather the goblins be the shooters and the orcs be the bashers.
3. wolf riders... the raiding seems to similiar to warcraft... orc riders would be better than goblins tho... goblins shud technically be their slaves.
4. wyverns/ paokais doesn't matter the name... immune to blind... its only useful against that spell and unicorns whereas crystal scales provides protection to many many abilities.
5. behemoth/ mastadon - still to be decided...
keep up the good work guys, hopefully it all pans out...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 05, 2006 12:46 PM |
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Quote:
To war-overlord:
1. goblin minion/henchmen- i think goblin to hobgoblin is better because of the size difference... loyalty is similiar to the minotaurs bravery... overwhelm looks like a melee version of warding arrow...
2. i'd rather the goblins be the shooters and the orcs be the bashers.
3. wolf riders... the raiding seems to similiar to warcraft... orc riders would be better than goblins tho... goblins shud technically be their slaves.
4. wyverns/ paokais doesn't matter the name... immune to blind... its only useful against that spell and unicorns whereas crystal scales provides protection to many many abilities.
Not to be downgrading, but what size difference are you talking about. As far as I know Goblins and Hobgoblins are the same size. Overwhelm is kind of a melee version of warding arrow, but with less damage, activated and only usable when the Goblins outnumber their enemy (It wouldn't make sense otherwise, now would it).
I agree that Goblins should technically be the slaves of the orcs, that why I made them be minions, they are threated in the same manner without being actualy owned. The Henchmen are just a small upgrade in rank, they get to boss other Goblins around, but are still lower then any orc.
I have to disagree with the goblins being the shooters. First of all, I think Goblins are to weak to effectively use any ranged weapon.(To weak to effectively notch a bow or crossbow). Secondly I feel that there are already enough level 1 shooters.
The reason I gave Paokais the blind immunity is the same reason why troglodytes have the same immunity. It's because they have no eyes. Still I was thinking about giving them the scavenger ability. Which would be "attacking" and therefor eating a dead stack to heal their own numbers. The reason why I made them Paokais and not Wyverns is because the Paokais already exist in Ashan and because they are tamed by some Orc tribes, it would make it easier to fit it into the game lorewise.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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