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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted November 05, 2006 09:15 PM |
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* noooo moooore draaaagons!!!!! everybody is already sick of them.
Do never use words like "everybody". But yes, too much dagons is annoying even if one more dragon wouldn't be too much.
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* in this thread we have already a better one, id say. and im quite sure that this other lineup wont make it into game. so take your lineups better points and try to give them to this thread and cease the other sanctuary development. theres no point in competition between 2 threads like this would be.
Yes, I like that solution. So which of mine ideas (if any) do you like?
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 05, 2006 09:20 PM |
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Quote:
No! We should not accept the damage Nival and Ubisoft has done to this excellent game. They try to make Heroes a "mainstream" game, one of many fantazy games. We have to defend the traditions! With Hydras in dungeon we need an replacement on Level 7 and why skip the chance to revive some of the old creatures?
gray dragon is honestly as boring creature as one could imagine. manticores are already declared Farmers of Hate neutrals.
the only nice thing would have been to have the Mighty Moo back. i liked those.
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 05, 2006 09:33 PM |
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New Prowler description on the previous page.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted November 05, 2006 09:33 PM |
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Grey dragons and rust dragons were made because 3do ran out of ideas for creatures. They should be forgotten because they are crap. Just like the mega dragon. Let's just stick with our current lineup. Why don't everyone contribute towards creating the sorcerer hero instead of arguing over the creature line up.
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 05, 2006 09:34 PM |
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Edited by vhilhu at 21:35, 05 Nov 2006.
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Quote:
Grey dragons
what were grey dragons? my memory fails me again...
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 05, 2006 09:51 PM |
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Grey Dragons never realy existed in the HOMM series, they might have in the M&M series, but I'm not an expert on those. I think Fortress-Fan made it up to give the Rust Dragon a predecesor.
OK guys, what are your thoughts on my new prowler description ?
Also if you don't mind, I will try to rework Hydromancy, because I think it's far to complex for a basic skill. I've explained my viewpoint on this a while back.
Quote:
I think we should wait with making special abilities for Hydromancy, untill we have a decent idea of what Hydromancy does. We can't just make it another school of magic like in SBlisters original proposal. Remember each racial skill does only one thing ! Now I hear you asking "What About RuneMagic of the Dwarves, that's Racial Magic". Well that is not exactly, Rune Magic lets the Dwarven Heroes create Runes in the Runebiulding in the Town, Rune Magic is a different form of Artificer, which makes temporary enhancement things for your troops. It's not a new school of magic. Before we go any further, we should make a working and workable form of Hydromancy.
So I'm going to give it a big(and perhaps long) rethink. Maybe I'll give something tonight, maybe not for a few days.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 05, 2006 10:00 PM |
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i liked mine better 
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted November 06, 2006 12:00 AM |
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Sorry War-Overlord, I like Vhilhu's better too. Ah, I see your point of simplyfing hydromancy. let me think bout it too.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted November 06, 2006 03:49 AM |
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Here is my new idea for Hydromancy. It is a grossly simplified version of my old idea and requires the Pool of Reflection building much like the Knight requires Training Ground. Here it goes:
Each creature has a certain number of Hydromancy points depending on the level of Hydromancy of the Hero.
Basic - 25 *2
Advanced - 50 *5
Expert - 75 *7
Ultimate - 100 *10
It acts like a shield (much like the Protoss in Starcraft). The first number in the table above (aka 25 for basic) is how many base shield points each stack has. That is how many Hit Points of damage is soaked up before dealing actual damage to the stack.
The actual number of shield points in a stack during combat is the based shield points multiplied by the number of creatures in the stack divided by the growth rate. Aka:
Shield Points: (Base Shield Points X Number of Creatures in Stack) divided by Growth Rate.
Lets take the Serpentfly for instance. Say its growth rate is 10 a week. So if the stack contains 30 serpentflies, the shield points for a Hero with basic hydromancy would be:
25 X 30/10 = 75
That is how many additional Shield HP the stack has. So say a stack of vampires do 100 damage, they would destroy 75 shield points and cause 25 damage to the serpent flies, probably killing 4 of them in the process.
The star number (*2) is how many Shield Points gets regenerated each turn.
So say the entire shield HP has been vanquished, and next turn the creatures would get the following Shield Points: (Regenerated Shield Points X Number of Creatures in Stack) divided by Growth Rate.
In the case of the Serpentflies they would get: 2 X 26/10 = 5 shield HP for the next turn (rounded up and taken into account how many creatures have died).
That's basically what I could come up with. Any thoughts?
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crepus
Adventuring Hero
Nuclear Power Plant
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posted November 06, 2006 02:40 PM |
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Hydromancy Shield
SBlister, I am very much for your rethinking of Hydromancy.
It should - of course - only apply to Temple creatures.
How about only letting the shield grow back to full strength by visiting a Pool of Reflection/Wisdom? I mean, to start with, and then giving the hero regeneration as abilities. Like this:
* Hydromantic regrowth - regenerates up to 20% of Hydromancy shield overnight
* Hydromantic regeneration - regenerates Hydromancy Shield in battle, 2/5/7/10 points per turn (requires regrowth)
* Quicksand - as stated before, but a once-per-battle activated ability (I'll write a specific post on that one when I'm done with this)
* Shalassas blessing - Ultimate ability, doubles hydro regrowth/regeneration and adds 4 to all creature defence.
Furhter thoughts could be that an Attack ability would be that creatures might do additional damage, but decreasing their shield doing that. Call it Shalassas rage or something. And maybe the Grand Archon (or whatever name she will get) should be able to transform some of her Hydromancy shield point into mana, if she starts to run out.
Which ever of the new descriptions of War-overlord or Vhilhu is doable, both are miles better than the Wizards-failing-again history.
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Mater tua criceta fuit, et Pater tuo
redoluit bacarum sambucus.
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crepus
Adventuring Hero
Nuclear Power Plant
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posted November 06, 2006 03:41 PM |
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On Quicksand
OK, so here's a more advanced thought on how the Quicksand ability should work.
* Quicksand is an activated ability, able to be cast once per battle.
* Hero spellpower determines how many squares of the battlefield will be turned into quicksand (one square to start with and one additional square for each five levels of spellpower, no more than twelve squares altogether).
* Hero Knowledge determines how big the quicksanded area is.
Quicksand is initially placed randomly in a 10x4 area. At knowledge 8 it's a 10x3 area, at 16 an 8x3, at 24 an 8x2 area, at 32 and above a 6x2 area.
* Quicksand does not appear on the same place as an already existing obstacle.
* Heros own creatures see quicksand squares and treat them like obstacles. Possibly we could let Temple creatures see own quicksand as normal ground.
* Enemies walking into (or landing in) a quicksand square lose all further movement and the ability to retaliate while in the sand. Creatures next turn it must move to an adjacent square, all abilities except teleportation will be locked while in the sandpit.
* Large creatures will be able to move (and attack) normally, unless they are standing 2/3 or more in a sandpit.
On quicksand dependent abilities
An ability under Enlightenmentshould be Quicksand Vision, where hero sees some of the quicksand pits placed by enemy hero. Fraction of pits displayed should be something like hero_level/(enemy_level * no_of_pits) or at least one.
One under Attack could be Poison Pits where enemy is poisoned if falling into one.
While under Summoning one could have Unstable Grounds, doubling the number of quicksanded squares, but also increasing the area in which they are placed by one row.
And finally a nice Heroine with a quicksand special:
Zhandra, once archon of the Naga capital, striving to learn al there is about her goddess' ways below ground, now a great leader of troops. Her studies in the art of summoning waters from deep underground to help in her battles are of great value as she often lures enemy troops into her aquatious traps, sending her brave lizardmen to do them in.
Hero special: Mistress of the sands - Zhandra can cast quicksand twice, the first time during the tactics phase. She also summons two additional squares of quicksand.
So, tell me children, what do you think?
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Mater tua criceta fuit, et Pater tuo
redoluit bacarum sambucus.
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 06, 2006 05:48 PM |
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Edited by vhilhu at 17:49, 06 Nov 2006.
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great work, sblister & crepus.
but some comments:
@crepus - shield regeneration during combat is a bad idea, that would suggest taking a weak slow neutral stack battle and just fooling around until all units shields are filled up. adventure map shield regeneration should be about 15 %, lest the town hydro pool would be rather useless. quicksand with large creatures, what do you mean with 2/3? it should be either 1/2 or 3/4 then?
but it does sound unique. 
____________
Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted November 06, 2006 06:05 PM |
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Finally, a simple but perfectly fitting racial ability. Just work out the shield refilling. How about this ubersimplified version: the shields are completely refilled every third turn of that unit? Plus automatically after each battle.
"Simplicity is the key to versatility, and versatility will allow you to achieve anything" - Baklavos of Sparta
I don't like quicksand. How would you explain sand in volcanic wastelands, where the earth is basically only rock? Not to mention sea battles.
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 06, 2006 06:18 PM |
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how would you explain meteorite showers underground?
it isnt that ridiculous, btw. imagine theres some magic layer of sand  but i agree, the placing quicksand part is too complex. just "place it where you want" would do.
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i looked on our creature line-up. templars. zealots. religious stuff. so, why not rename the hero Hierophant?
sorcerer as hero name is
1) already in use as Sorcery
2) too nondescript
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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crepus
Adventuring Hero
Nuclear Power Plant
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posted November 06, 2006 10:53 PM |
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I did write wrong on the large creatures. Meant 3/4.
The quicksand our heroes call is made by the underground waters moving upwards so quickly and ferociously that all ground matter, be it sand, soil or stone is pulverized and sated with water. And I like it complicated 
Hierophant sounds better for a hero than Sorceress/Sorcerer.
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Mater tua criceta fuit, et Pater tuo
redoluit bacarum sambucus.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted November 07, 2006 12:20 AM |
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First off, I'm glad you like my new version of Hydromancy. The problem now is the regeneration of the shield points which I knew was gonna be the tricky bit. I like the new abilities suggested. Why does the quicksand area aka 10X3 get smaller the better your hero becomes?
I like that you all are moving away from tradition but heirophant is a very remote name unlike knight, ranger, necromancer which are all very generic. even runemage isn't that uncommon but heirophant... Just sounds like a very bold move. I do agree on one thing though, maybe the name sorcerer should be changed.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted November 07, 2006 02:35 AM |
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Edited by SBlister at 04:04, 07 Nov 2006.
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Here are a few suggestions based on what everyone has said:
1. We shall use the Hydromancy Shield Skill. With a little bit of changes. Shields regenerate to full after combat. There would be no need to revisit the pool of reflections. This would make the skill Hydromantic Regrowth obsolete.
2. Change the name of Hydromantic Regeneration to Enervation as the first racial ability. Basically it allows shields to regenerate during combat. Without this skill, the Shields DO NOT regenerate in combat. The regeneration is per what I suggested before.
3. We shall keep Quicksand as the second Racial ability. If you don't want the name quicksand we could easily change it to "waters of blah blah" or "ebb and flow"
4. We need a third Racial ability. Some thing which allows the shield to absorb 20, 40 and 60% of magic damage at basic, advanced and expert levels.
5. I am all for Shalassa's Blessing as the Ultimate Skill.
Now for the other abilities:
1. Logistics - Change the name Unstable Grounds to Treacherous Grounds. I elect to put this ability under logistics because I have another idea for summoning.
2. Defense - Keep Strangle Archers.
3. Enlightment - Quicksand vision would not be super useful since it only can be used against other Naga factions. We need another skill for this one.
4. War Machines - A skill that allows the First Aid Tent to Rejuvinate the shield points.
5. Summoning - Water warriors. All elementals summoned will be water elementals and would have access to the shield ability if the Hero has it.
6. Attack - I'm not really a fan of poison pits.
7. Leadership - Battle Caster: The morale of the Hero is the number of spell points it gains per round. Due to the hero's magical affinity.
8. Luck - Shield Luck: Chance that shields absorb more damage than normal.
9. Light Magic: ?
10. Dark Magic: ?
11. Destructive Magic: ?
12. Sorcery: ?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 07, 2006 11:24 AM |
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As far as the description of the Lizardmen Prowlers goes, there are somethings I have to comment Vhilhus version. Firstly, the description does not refer to the unit directly and therefor cannot be used in it's current form. Secondly, I realy don't see the use of dragging Haven into the story. They have no real use and it makes no sense for the Knights to start to crusade against the Lizardmen for their different belief. As far as I know, Haven only wants to keep their own ranks pure. If they would crusade against every different belief, they would have done so agains every other faction in Ashan.
I know my new version isn't perfect, but I'm sure SBlister can fuse them into something decent
Enough about that, I like the idea of having Hydromancy work as a shielding ability. It's simple, it's usefull and it's balanceable, in other words, Great. I also don't see the reason for quicksand getting smaller as your hero gets better, but otherwise it's good.
The Regeneration for the shields is nice for a subskill for Hydromancy, but I think the Regen should be limited because such can get overpowered realy fast. However, having Hyrdomancy block magic might be better suited for a campaign hero, because this might also get realy overpowered realy fast. I think we should give either a damaging ability, or a buff for the third subskill. Perhaps, we could use my original Geiser idea for that.
Last thing, I don't have a lot of time nowadays, so being the one who keeps the Masterpost up to date will be severely limited for me. I would like to ask SBlister to take over the masterpost tasks. You've done great in my absence and in the previous PS project, so I know you will do so now.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted November 07, 2006 06:53 PM |
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Ok, propositions on stuff next to which you put a ?:
Dark magic - Depths of Venom - gives the hero Decay spell and ability to cast it at no mana cost
Light magic - Daywave - all hero's light spells are enhanced by 30%
Destructive magic - Tidal Rage - hero's normal attack (you know, simple left-clicking on the enemy) has a chance to deal double damage
Sorcery - Friendly Waters - hero gains additional sea movement
Now to the others:
Battle caster is a crappy name. How about Magic Affinity?
Enlightenment - Fog of Pureness - there's a small chance each hero's turn that the Mass Cleansing spell will be cast on all friendly units, at no mana or initiative cost for the hero
Attack - Will of Steel - All NAGA (not lizardmen, coatl or wyrms) in the hero's army never have their morale lower than 0
I'm for renaming the hero to hierophant. The name rocks.
Btw what happened with the name change for priestesses? I noticed in War-Overlord's main post on page 1 that they remained that way, but we were discussing changing it some time ago.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted November 07, 2006 07:22 PM |
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New master post is on page 20 dude. And I'm taking over from War-Overlord since he's gonna be busy.
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This thread is pages long: 
