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| Thread: Advanced Classes - A specific suggestion for modification of Class System. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 28, 2006 10:36 PM |
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Advanced Classes - A specific suggestion for modification of Class System.
This topic is spawned by our discussion in the Advanced Classes thread here. I will post my suggestion here, so as to keep the general discussion in the other thread, and make this thread focus on this specific suggestion.
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Basic Idea
The basical concept is that each Class as we know them now (Knight, Ranger, Wizard, etc) can be developped into two different Subclasses - one for Might and one for Magic. Thus, Knight can develop into Lord (Might) and Cleric (Magic). In order to qualify for the specific Subclass, the Hero needs to have three Skills of the proper kind. Thus, to get Might subclass, Hero needs three of the skills Attack, Defence, Logistics, Leadership, Luck and Warmachines. To qualify for Magic subclass, Hero needs three of the skills Enlightenment, Sorcery, Light Magic, Dark Magic, Destructive Magic and Summoning Magic. Any combination of three skills will do - there are no limitations.
Consequences of acquiring a Subclass
The subclass will offer you several benefits. It will provide a shift in the probability for the various primary abilities, that will generally suite your Hero skill inclinement. Thus, if you focus on might skills and take Might subclass, you will develop Attack and Defence values rather than Spellpower and Knowledge, whereas the opposite will be true for the Magic subclass. The skill progression will also level out a bit as opposed to the Basic classes, that will have a strong tendency for one ability to increase.
Furthermore, with your Subclass, you will get a Subclass specific skill, just like your Class specific skill (ie. Knight class has unique Counterstrike skill). You will get the basic level in this Subclass skill for free upon acquiring the class. Each Subclass specific skill will have three levels, three related abilities plus an Ultimate ability, just like the normal Class skills.
Finally, acquiring the subclass will change the availibility of Skills for you - thus, you will generally be more likely to get Skills that suite your new subclass.
List of Subclasses and class properties
The following tables show a list of Classes and Subclasses for each faction. For each faction, top part shows the Primary Ability progression in % (AT = Attack, DE = Defence, SP = Spellpower, KN = Knowledge). To the right is listed the corresponding Class Skill and Ultimate Ability. The coloured squares farthest to the right shows the combination of Skills required for the Ultimate ability (not including the Class skill).
Below this is the propability of each class being offered the respective Skills as new Skills at level up. Skills are Attack (A, grey), Defence (D, light blue), Leadership (P, purple), Logistics (L, light green), Luck (U, golden), War Machines (W, brown), Enlightenment (E, dark green), Sorcery (S, dark blue), Dark Magic (K, deep purple), Destructive Magic (T, orange red), Light Magic (I, light yellow), Summoning Magic (M, teal) and the Class Skill (C, light red). Notice that a few numbers are tweaked, and the each class has at least 3 skills in each group (Might skills vs. Magic skills) with at least 8 % chance of occuring. Effectively, this means that acquiring both Subclasses should be easy (will give exact numbers on demand).
Subclass Skills
The following tables show my suggestions for Subclass skills. These are not necessarily final suggestions, but I think most of this would work decently.
(Edited following discussions with Geny through pages 1 and 2. With gratitude for the support!)
Modifications in Skill System
The new system will meen a modification of the skill system - there will now be two Class skills for each Hero. My personal suggestion would be to let each Hero have a total of 8 Skill Slots:
- 1 Reserved for Class Skill (provided at first level).
- 1 Reserved for Subclass Skill (provided when subclass is acquired).
- 6 For normal skills.
I've tried to make a complete new layout for all the skill leaves in the Hero info menu. What I would do was add another leave, so that the leave including Skills + Specialization + Class Abilities is separated into to leaves: One concerning Skills, and one concerning Specialization + Class Abilities.
A suggestion for layout is shown below (top: Skill Screen; mid: Specialization + Class Abilities screen; bottom: Abilities screen). I would like to add a comment to the new Specialization + Class Abilities screen.
What is shown is in the top the Hero Specialization (+ a pane to include a text description of the spezialiation). Below this is the Class Skill pane, showing to the left the Skill Icon (in this case Necromancy) and to the right the 3 Class Abilities (Eternal Servitude, Skeleton Archers and Banshee Howl). Below this is shown the Ultimate Ability to the right (Howl of Terror) and the 4 small icons represent the required abilities for gaining this skill. In this case, Dark Ritual, Corrupted Soil and Silent Stalker is shown in full colour, because the Hero has acquired these skills. Power Of Speed is darkened, because the Hero still needs to obtain this skill. Likewise, the Ultimate Ability is darkened because the Hero hasn't obtained this skill yet. Below the class Skill is the Subclass skill pane. The Subclass skill slot is empty, because this hero has acquired no Subclass. Likewise, all the Subclas abilities show "?" because no Subclass is obtained.
XP System
Finally, the Experience Scale needs a SERIOUS overhaul. First of all, the new system would meen you could have 8 Skills and a total of 48 Skill and Ability levels. The Level scale should therefore be extended to (at least) 50.
Secondly, the present scale is just TOTALLY insane. The following table shows the levels, the Nival Experience requirements, and a suggestion for an alternative list:
To understand why the Nival experience system doesn't work, consider the following: To gain level 34, you need a staggering 3.5 MILLION experience points. Killing a Black Dragon will provide you with 353 Experience points. Thus, to raise from level 33 to 34, you need to kill about 10.000 (TEN THOUSAND) Black Dragons! And that's level 34. To gain level 36, you need a total of 33 MILLION XP points - or roughly, a total of 100.000 Black Dragon kills during the game! Obviously, that's completely non-sense.
The problem with the Nival scale is that it's based on roughly increasing the Experience requirement for level-up with a factor of 1.2 until level 25. That works fairly well (it's a bit on the high side, though, but ok). From level 25, however, the factor is increased by 0.1 for each level - thus, at level 32, the factor is 2 (you need twice the experience to get to next level that you needed to get to this level) and things get completely out of control. This means basically that to get above level 30, your only option is to use Trees of Knowledge and other direct-level-ups.
My alternative system is more simple. Experience required to reach next level goes roughly as:
Level 1-15: 1.10
Level 16-30: 1.15
Level 31-45: 1.20
Level 46- : 1.25
Exact boundaries could be moved if one wanted a more steep Experience scale, but factors above 1.5 should deffinitely be avoided less things get out of control!
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted October 28, 2006 11:45 PM |
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Edited by Ted at 20:38, 16 Oct 2007.
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Wow thats good, really good, i mean really really really good, heck its unbelieveible, and thats what im here to say.
First nice new experiance levels,
Secondly good idea for classes
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted October 28, 2006 11:56 PM |
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Even tho I'm not fond of having 2 classes for each faction (I prefer good old 1 hero per faction), i must say... good work!!
Experience system sounds much better than nival one.
Linear damage growth for casters would be welcome as well.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 02:16 AM |
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Quote:
Wow thats good, really good, i mean really really really good, heck its unbelieveible, but thats not what im here to say.
First nice new experiance levels,
Secondly good idea for classes
Thirdly hey so took some of the stuff from mine, i had new hero types and you stoul them . I really didnt like that. but what would the subclass be?
Rather Angry Ted.
Well, to defend myself, I did not take them from you - actually, I haven't read your thread through; as I said, I took my inspiration from the Advanced Class thread, more specifically from Vlaads post, with due credit. And most of them came from the old Heroes 2, 3 and 4 names (Cleric, Overlord, Sorcerer, Demoniac, Heretic and Lord all go back to the old Heroes names). But I did not intend to "steal" anybody's work.
And to answer your last question, the Subclass would be the ones listed below the present class - thus, Knight has subclasses Lord and Cleric, whereas Wizard has subclasses Alchemist and Sage (aka. Enchanter).
Quote:
Linear damage growth for casters would be welcome as well.
Certainly so. That was always a thorn in my eye!
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 29, 2006 09:48 AM |
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I think I will stay with your idea. Its really good and dont need no change. I really cant believe how can you do something like that! Are you some Heroes improvement fanatic???
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Already gone...
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 29, 2006 11:04 AM |
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Edited by Geny at 11:04, 29 Oct 2006.
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First of all GREAT WORK!!!
Even though I haven't read all of your post yet, just the general idea, I can say that this is a work of art.
I will probably comment on the new skills and abilities later on, but the system in general looks great, especially after the skill availability tweaking for the basic classes.
(BTW in the first table you inserted lord/cleric class skills to the overlord/sorcerer)
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted October 29, 2006 11:07 AM |
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Well fine, thats good enough but still. Also what are the subskills anyway, it would be good to couse from 3 but anyway, (if you already answersed the question explain better).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 11:10 AM |
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Ha ha I guess I am. Well, it all just starts with a small idea, and then I want to develop it a bit, t9 see where it goes, and whether it would actually work. I have been working on this for some weeks now, following our talk in the other thread.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted October 29, 2006 11:16 AM |
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 well then, lets poke holes in your plan then. First Sniper?, what?, a sniper is someone with a gun, i have not seen anysniper with a bow and arrow.
I will be back later after looking for imperfections.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 29, 2006 11:19 AM |
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I just realized something...
You propose to add another skill slot, right? That leaves us with 6 normal skills... What happens if I choose 3 magic skills and 3 might skills and max them all to expert level?
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 29, 2006 12:02 PM |
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Edited by Sindbad at 12:09, 29 Oct 2006.
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I think Alc added two more skill slots. If I remember right, in the game there were only 6 skills altogether - racial + 5 other. But correct me, if Im wrong.
Edit: And one more question to Alc: you give 4 available abilities to your class skills (3 normal + ultimate). Dont your class skills need then one more (ultimate) level???
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 01:51 PM |
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To catch up on some questions:
Geny > It's correct that I added new Skill slots, 2 as Sindbad said, and that leaves the possibility of having 3 Might and 3 Magic skills. The way I think it should work, would be like this: When you acquire your first tripple of Skills, you will be offered the Advanced Class (notice, it should be an ofer, that you can turn down, if you prefer your basic class). If you take the Advanced Class, that class remains. If you turn it down, and later meet the conditions for the other Advanced Class, you will have that class offered, and you can take it. However, if you've chosen one, and then meet the conditions for the other, you should not be able to change.
Sindbad > I did not include the Ultimate Level on purpose. First of, it could give problems with the Pendant of Mastery, which would have to be changed so that you would choose which of you Class Skills it should apply to, in the case where both have Ultimate Levels. And secondly, I just kept it as simple as possible, and I also think it makes good sense that the Class skill goes to Ultimate, whereas the Subclass Skill only goes to the normal Expert. Also, I was never fond of this special level that you can only achieve with an artifact. It seems wrong within the Heroes world to me. Of course, one could change it easily.
Tex > I don't understand your question, I'm afraid. Perhaps if you could refrase it?
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 29, 2006 02:39 PM |
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Edited by Sindbad at 14:44, 29 Oct 2006.
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Here is what I suggest: the pendant of mastery as a requirement should be destroyed. The ultimate lvl should be accesible in a normal way. And if you want to have 4 abiltiies (inculding ultimate) you NEED TO have an ultimate level of the class skill! Dont you know its so, that you can have only that much abilities how high is your skill level? (for example: you cant have tactics and archery if you have only basic attack!) And how would be your ultimate class skill achieveable if you dont have the ultimate class skill level? What would be the requierements???
Edit: I think Ted (not Tex  ) wanted to say that the name Sniper doesnt fit to a bowman.
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Already gone...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 02:43 PM |
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Sounds very reasonable to me. Should be accessible as a regular Skill, as far as I'm concerned. Might wanna put some level restriction and/or change some of the Ultimaate levels, as some of them are quite powerfull.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 29, 2006 03:11 PM |
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nice one!!! if that could be in the game, the other factions apart from dungeon and academy would be more apealling 
what about the Dwarves hero, the rune mage, are you gonna try and do some thing with him
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 29, 2006 03:25 PM |
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Prayer...lol. How about adding Resurrection effect to all units while we are at it It basically covers Attack, Defence, Leadership and Luck all in one skill, and even more. Initiative, speed and HP are also increased
Well, atleast Alchemist gives you several MARKETPLACES more 
I'm sorry, I do think the idea behind this is good.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 03:59 PM |
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 As I said, some of the numbers might need tweeking in order to be ballanced. +3 Luck and Morale might be a little too much.
Have nerfed numbers a bit to what is probably a more reasonable level.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 29, 2006 05:05 PM |
bonus applied. |
Edited by Geny at 17:18, 29 Oct 2006.
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So the advanced class is optional? Great, that's exactly what I wanted to hear.
Now I'll start reading about the skills, let's see how far I will get...
Lord
What do you mean "Hero will never let wandering Inferno/Undead creatures flee from battle"? I'll have to fight those succubus mistress even if they are much weaker then me? AND I virtually can't add undead/inferno to my army because of the penalty? +50% to exp is a very nice bonus, but the way I see it it's useful only in big hero vs hero battles (remember you'll be a very high level by the time you get to this ability).
Cleric
-Is Prayer just an improved version of benediction (makes the latter ability rather useless)?
-"Ultimate ability - prayer bonuses are doubled when fighting Inferno creatures". Does that mean only wandering creatures or any army that has inferno units in it (e.g. haven army with one imp)?
Demoniac
When you fight a haven army with units on different levels, what units are tempted first? The weakest so you have low level but high numbers or the strongest so you have high level and low numbers? Or maybe random?
Heretic
see Cleric Ultimate ability.
Mystic
-Does the occultism work both on enemy heroes and units?
-Does Clairvoyance ability add cleansing to your spellbook? And is your level of casting depends on light magic skill as it should? Do you have a choice when to use and when not (for example if you know you're not going to succeed ot just short on mana)? And just to be precise, you didn't mean any spell, but an enchantment, right?
I'll post it like this for now and add on later...
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 29, 2006 05:26 PM |
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Those are really good questions... Ive been wondering too. Just that now Im completely confused.
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Already gone...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 29, 2006 06:06 PM |
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Good questions. Let me take them one by one, as best I can.
Quote:
Lord
What do you mean "Hero will never let wandering Inferno/Undead creatures flee from battle"? I'll have to fight those succubus mistress even if they are much weaker then me? AND I virtually can't add undead/inferno to my army because of the penalty? +50% to exp is a very nice bonus, but the way I see it it's useful only in big hero vs hero battles (remember you'll be a very high level by the time you get to this ability).
It potentially does add some extra management in forms of battles against weaker units, yes. One solution would be to use the auto-combat function for such battles (that function remains, right, or am I mistaken?) or one could add a lower limit and say that, Neutrals with total army size less than 20 % or 10 % of Hero army size can flee to avoid micro-management. Of course, the game should not be tired down unreasonably by those skills.
And woth respect to mixing armies - you are right, it would impose large morale penalties to mix the units. I did that on purpose - you get something, and give something.
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Cleric
-Is Prayer just an improved version of benediction (makes the latter ability rather useless)?
-"Ultimate ability - prayer bonuses are doubled when fighting Inferno creatures". Does that mean only wandering creatures or any army that has inferno units in it (e.g. haven army with one imp)?
It is just an upgraded version of Benediction, yes. The latter skill will be less usefull, but you could use both - the effects should stack.
And to the second question - I am myself unresolved on that part. My first idea would be that the bonus was doubled on any army including Infernal creatures. Then I reconsidered, and thought maybe that was not such a good idea (the 1-Imp problem). I think the best solution might be to change the skill slightly to say something like:
Divine Fervour: Units affected by Prayer does +50 % combat damage to Infernal Units. In that way, you can easily descriminate in armies with a mixture of units (yes, the 1 Imp would probably be pretty much in trouble, but wouldn't do anything to the remaining army).
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Demoniac
When you fight a haven army with units on different levels, what units are tempted first? The weakest so you have low level but high numbers or the strongest so you have high level and low numbers? Or maybe random?
I would say from top and down always. Which means Tempt as many top level unit your XP restriction gives room for, then next level and so forth, until XP quota is used best possibly. That was very much the way it was done with Charm and Diplomacy in Heroes 4, if I remember.
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Mystic
-Does the occultism work both on enemy heroes and units?
-Does Clairvoyance ability add cleansing to your spellbook? And is your level of casting depends on light magic skill as it should? Do you have a choice when to use and when not (for example if you know you're not going to succeed ot just short on mana)? And just to be precise, you didn't mean any spell, but an enchantment, right?
I'll post it like this for now and add on later...
Occultism should work on both Heroes and Units.
Clairvoyance > Cleansing should be added to the spellbook for this skill to make any sense. The other questions are tougher. Hmmm ... The Mystic is quite unlikely to have the Light Magic skill - but that doesn't meen he couldn't get a bonus if he should in fact have it. I'm not sure - and it does make some difference ... Hmmm, I'd probably say, make chance of success 100 % (i.e. no check), but leave no option for the player - if it uses your last mana, that's just tough luck. That would be the easy solution, but not necessarily the best. Alternatively, you should be able to either define your minimum remaining mana after the skill is used (which would disable the skill if mana was too low) or it could be an activated ability - the latter, however, would make it very much like a watered-down version of Counterspell, which would be kind of pointless. As I said, some of these ideas need polishing, so please give me your input as well.
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