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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 30, 2008 10:41 AM |
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Spirit of Oppression is present.
Krellion will have -1 moral (army of 3 different alignments).
Krellion has speed of velocity, which adds +2 to creature speed.
He also has pendant of courage, which max out his luck.
Elixier of life adds 25% to creature's hit points and creatures gain hp refill each turn.
Krellion has golden bow, which makes those 176 evil eyes a real threat.
Neela carries red orb, which makes master genies unable to cast any spells!
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted October 30, 2008 11:24 AM |
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I believe he will have neutral morale.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 30, 2008 12:34 PM |
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No, Krellion has the Red Orb, and I don't understand why because he's giving away
1) the advantage the Resistance skill would offer (and note that Neela is unprotected)
2) The advantage FIRE Magic offers which may be a big one: Mass Bloodlust would get him even in attack/defence, Fire Shield on the Wyverns, Frenzy, Berserk. Moreover, Blind would allow unretaliated attacks, if necessary, while Sacrifice would just make the Evil Eyes worth about 100 Wyverns to resurrect.
(Let me add here that the Golden Bow is no threat at all because the Evil Eyes and Medusas are no threat at all - they won't do any notable damage - see below).
3) 90 spell points plus which the Mages won't cover since there are no points for 45 spells to cast
Basically this fight is about the Wyvern stacks and who will be able to do what damage. Neela's Wyvern are roundabout 50% of their strength, Krellion's a bit less, but still the main strike force. Krellion is -6, while Neela is +5. Neela is at -35% due to Armorer, while Krell is at -15. So let's see what damage potential there is at start against those stacks.
Krell:
Evil Eyes: 446
Medusae: 363
Minos: 674
Scrorpis: 517
Angels: 971
Dragons: 712
Wyverns: 2964
That means, the combined Krell force can, at face value kill 93 Wyverns in one go. 41 of those 93 come from the Wyverns (only).
The other question is what Krell's Wyvern can do with the other Neela stacks. We know what happens against her Wyverns:
Wyvern: 2964 or 41 Wyvern killed
Mages: 3400, killed
Genies: 3139, killed
Golems: 3313, 92 or nearly killed
Nagas: 3052, 27 killed, 5 left
Gargs: 3662, killed
Titans: 2092, 6-7 killed, 8-9 survivors
However, Krell will have moral failures, but more Luck, plus there are two disble stacks.
So how is Neela, compared to that? What potential has her army to reduce Krell's Wyverns:?
Mages: 701 (350)
Genies: 737
Golems: 462
Nagas: 1432
Gargs: 391
Titans: 1450 (725)
Wyvern: 4751
With the Elixier this means that Neela's army's killing potential in one go is (with full shooter/hand-to-hand damage) is 114, 54 out of which are the work of the Wyvern which is nearly 50%.
What will Neela's Wyvern do against Krell's other stacks?
Wyvern: 4751, 54 killed
Evil Eyes: 5891, killed
Scorps: 4751, killed
Angels: 3706, 14-15 killed, 8-9 survivors
Minos: 4561, killed
Dragons: 3231, 8 killed, 7 survivors
Medusae, obviously killed.
Conclusion:
Potential is fairly equal. Neela has better speed all-around, so will be more flexible. With her Gargs being faster than the Wyvern she'll aim to deliver a first blow to Krell's Wyvern, unretaliated. Since there are so many double-hexers for Krell it will be impossible to bring them all to bear against her Wyvern. If Neela can get a double Wyvern hit in on Krell's Wyvern, before Krell's Wyvern can actually be brought to bear against Neela, Krell is finished. Each Wyvern retaliation will cost dearly and when all is said and done there is no stack that can endanger Neela's Titans. Another disadvantage for Krell is that Neela can make sure Krell's Wyverns won't hit anything in the first turn.
Krell's best chance would be an immediate lucky Paralyze or later on a Petrify early on Neela's Wyverns. This would allow Krell to dispose of Nagas and Titans, while Wyvern would be out, and after that Wyverns could be whittled down, always with chances for another Paralyze or Petrify.
So basically this fight will be decided by luck: Paralyze or not, early lucky hit on Titans, Dragons, Angels, Wyverns.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted October 30, 2008 01:29 PM |
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Quote:
I believe he will have neutral morale.
Yes, as far as i remember Krellion would have positive morale, which will be negated to neutral by the Oppresion, and not reverse.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 30, 2008 02:30 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 14:35, 30 Oct 2008.
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Spirit of Oppression (Sp.o.O.) = negates all moral bonuses on battlefield. A bonus is always something positive!
Moral bonus in this case:
a) +3 due to pendant of courage -> negated due to Sp.o.O.
b) +1 due to badge of courage -> negated due to Sp.o.O.
c) +1 due to angel in army -> negated due to Sp.o.O.
Moral penalty in this case:
a) -1 due to army consisting of 3 different alignment -> stays
At least that's how it works theoretically.
And btw...the resistance skill would help nothing due to black orb!
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted October 30, 2008 02:46 PM |
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I'm talking out of my head but I think otherwise. I do not think that Spirit negates morale bonuses but prevents actual positive morale from appearing. But calculations are still made using those positive bonuses, therefore Krellion will have neutral morale.
Quick test: it seems this way.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 30, 2008 02:48 PM |
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Edited by maretti at 14:51, 30 Oct 2008.
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Krellion won the battle pretty convincingly. We both made a few mistakes, so im not saying its impossible to win with Neela but I think Krellion needs to make some heavy mistakes to lose.
Just to clarify: Red orb is present so no spells beside Neelas prayer will be cast. Both heroes have neutral moral due to spirit of oppression (without spirit of o Krellion would have plus 3 moral). After the prayer Krellion has plus 2 to speed and Neela plus 4. Krellion has plus 3 luck and Neela plus 1. Black orb has no effect since red orb is present.
@Angelito: Thats not how spirit of opression works. It negates the combined result of the diffrent moral modifiers.
Which artifacts would you guys wear considering the only knowledge you have of the opponent is his stats and armysize? The template is 8xm8. Neela has the arts you see. Krellion also has all 4 books, neclace of swiftness, recanters cloak and cards of prophecy. He also has 274 harpy hags, would you use them?
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 30, 2008 02:51 PM |
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That's not how it works in theory. The Black Orb "resets" creature immunities to 0. That would mean for that battle that all creatures would be equally vulnerable by magic which means that Dragons and Golems are just normal creatures.
Resistance still works, though, that is, HERO based immunities.
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Rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted October 30, 2008 02:59 PM |
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If I was Krellion I would always wear the Red Orb. Elixir, Golden Bow, Cape (no knowledge of Alliance's Prayer, but who can expect that), great morale (no knowledge of Spirit), and crappy SP of his dictates this.
Hags... no. With no Golden Bow yes in stead of Medusas. Red Orb does not negates creature abilities like Petrify so they can turn out to be a winner.
edit: just saw Expert Fire  But Neela's Genies and Titans on far sides so you cant Berserk properly, plus you cant expect that she has Black Orb, so I stay with the first, its safer imo.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 30, 2008 03:03 PM |
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Battle strategy for Neela should have been easy: Keep the Wyverns out of reach of Krell's Wyvern in turn 1, which will allow you a double hit, end of turn 1 and start of turn 2 Don't forget that the only really dangerous stack are the Wyverns. Try to facilitate a double hit on them, sacrificing two cheap stacks, Gargs and Genies for first hit to eat retaliation and double hit.
Neela obviously did something else.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 30, 2008 03:47 PM |
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Krellion should keep his wyverns out of Neelas wyverns reach round 1. He can still attack with 5 stacks.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 30, 2008 04:15 PM |
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Right. Neela must move them. Then hit them with Scorps first, followed by Angels (if not paralyzed) and Dragons, reducing them at least. 2nd round will be interesting, though.
Might be difficult to facilitate, though, depending on initial deployment. Wyvern must be placed out of Neela's reach, but Scorpicores and Angels must be able to hit, so Wyvern must back to a place near Angels and Scorpicores. If Neela has Wyverns smack in the middle that might be a problem.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted October 30, 2008 04:19 PM |
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Quote:
Spirit of Oppression (Sp.o.O.) = negates all moral bonuses on battlefield. A bonus is always something positive!
To quote me again: No, as far as i remember Krellion would have positive morale, which will be negated to neutral by the Oppresion, and not reverse.
I think you are wrong.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 30, 2008 05:30 PM |
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Correct. Refering to S.o.O. I was wrong.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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prowler
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 31, 2008 09:55 AM |
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Edited by prowler at 09:56, 31 Oct 2008.
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Interesting fight. Similar stats and skills, in my opinion its all about numbers, krellion has much bigger and efficient army and with bow and elixir..... Though it would be interesting to see if Neela ware shield of the damned, with slow, weakness, curse, misfortune cose of black orb it would effect every creature in krellion army and red orb present, but then her attack would only be 20 which is too low
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 31, 2008 10:37 AM |
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Armor of the damned is a worthy option I would say.
- The lower stats refering to SP and KN are not relevant.
- The lower attack skill and defense skill is a bad thing for sure, but on the other hand you have mass weakness, which reduces every enemy unit's attack skill by 6, mass curse reduces damage a lot, and you negate the +1 luck, so no double damage possible.
- And the speed advantage due to mass slow is important also. This way Krellion's wyverns will have speed 5 only, while Neela's have 7. And she will always start first, because speed 11 will be the highest on the field.
Any chance to re-fight this battle?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Hell_Wizard
Famous Hero
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posted October 31, 2008 11:50 AM |
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If only Krellion had no orb...
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Ruho
Hired Hero
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posted October 31, 2008 04:02 PM |
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Edited by Ruho at 16:07, 31 Oct 2008.
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Armor of the Damned's spellls will work with the red orb, just like Angelic Alliance's Prayer.
Quote:
Angelito wrote: Any chance to re-fight this battle?
Played a little with map editor and... *drum rolling*... Krellion won much easier when Neela wore AotD.
And by the way, very interesting fight. Insanely hard to estimate the winner or the best combination of the artifacts to use.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted October 31, 2008 05:44 PM |
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I played a TE game recetly and mentioned something interesting. Red Orb allows the Angelic Alliance to cast Prayer, but recancers cloac DOESNT!
If its not a specific bug in TE, then Krelion should sacrifice his +2 speed for the recancers cloac and negate Neela's Prayer.
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Rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted October 31, 2008 08:05 PM |
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That is true Liophy. Also, Cursed Ground prevents Angelic Alliance's Prayer, but it will allow Slow and Curse from Armor of the Damned effect.
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