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| Thread: 3DO !!! Some Creature Looks MUST Be Changed! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted November 29, 2001 04:53 AM |
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Actually I will be extremely happy if there is no "blah" sound when the vampire attacks. That goes beyond cheesey B movies, and reminds me of little kids pretending to be vampires.
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted November 29, 2001 11:17 PM |
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Lots of things happened since I've been gone.
Quite a long discution, most of it quite boring since answers are avoided and other arguments thrown in over and over again.
"However, some of us expects to be entertained in a game so a humourish approach is certainly a good one. "
...and that is wrong.Entertainment means humour?...let me check my dictionary.................No!
"About fighting war... Heroes is a strategy game and NOT a war game."
Oh, not a war game? That I didn't know.Then perhaps you could explain it to me how come there are tons of monsters fighting and heroes wandering on the map and engaging enemies if it's not a war game? What is that in your opinion?
I've also read all the stuff about familiar vamps and halloween ones.Absolutely irelevant and way out of topic.
Also, should a vampire be recognizable as one? Anyone bothered to recognize a titan as one? Why should a vamp be recognizable as one? That's stupid.
About clothes now.That's the most important aspect and most of you guys don't get the point.So:
- the century style: since most of the clothes are medieval or mythological, so should be the vampire outfit.The time is the same so the style should be the same.And stop giving me that "the tailor could have done it". I can't imagine you belive what you're saying. Yes, he could have done it, so a modern tailor could do a futuristic outfit with aluminium foils instead od underwear.Does he do it? No! Why? Because he has no clue it fill be fashionable 100 years from now on.
- the earth-inspiring details. Of course the place of the action is the Earth.Well, it's not called that, but certainly is not Mars, as this game is not BroodWars. So of course it is inspired from dark ages.
"Since you 'like' the H3 vampires... IMO these vampires looks as if they'd just swallowed one kg of lemons a few seconds ago. That's just plain boring to me. There's no attraction for me in looking at a sour vampire. It's not making it look either noble or evil."
That's because you've seen the smaller picture.I've seen also the artwork and he looks both noble and evil. Nothing sour about it. You should perhaps have a closer look.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Crusher_vamp...
Hired Hero
Leader of vampires
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posted November 30, 2001 01:00 AM |
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Quote:
The vampire does not portray the dangerous evil and nobleness of a vampire attacking creatures and draining their life out of them.. instead it looks like some silly creature with a toothy grin, ready to go collect candy and laugh. That is the reason why I don't like the current style of vampire.
Game...set...match... that's it... this is the new look of the vampire (hope it will change untill homm4 comes out)
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Death may lie and wait, and death may fly, but with passing eons even death may die...
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Darion
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2001 01:45 AM |
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However, some of us expects to be entertained in a game so a humourish approach is certainly a good one. A bloody and gory one is only too likely to remind us of the outside world, which is why I don't like it. There's a lot of war and misery around the world. I do not want to be reminded of it when I play a game of strategy.
Fantasy, as we have probably heard a billion times, needs to have something rooted in the real world for it to hold the interest of the visitor. If the game is humourish, that is fine, and I like some of the little humor in the game and inside jokes... but not a silly creature. The blood and gore IS necessary in any sort of game with conflict, and if you do not want to be reminded of it when you play a game of strategy, then go play something else. This strategy is not simply arranging your creatures properly... this is a game of killing. It is killed or be killed, and there is no other way around it. These creatures are fighting for their lives, and there is no way around the death and misery that comes when fighting battles...
What looks dangerous is subjective. There's nothing wrong with these Vampires for me, but then halloween is not that popular in my country. And besides, the picture is a model. If a creature really will appear dangerous will depend on how it appears on the battlefield and on animations. So basically, you should withhold your opinion on this one because you haven't seen enough to give a judgement. Nobleness and evilnees can't really be relayed by a static model. You'll need an animated image for that.
On the contrary, nobleness and evilness can be portrayed by a static image. Despite what you say about the animated image (which may be true) the first impression of any creature is based on it's structure. Granted yes, the posture and pose play a great role in the feel of the creature, but the structure is what makes or breaks a creature. You could have a vampire dressed in a sundress with PERFECTLY EVIL animations, and it would look wrong. Or, you could have a vampire with distorted limbs proportionwise and it would also look wrong even if it had been animated perfectly.
About fighting war... Heroes is a strategy game and NOT a war game.
What Vlad said....
When it comes to vampires and halloween it appears you see them so often that you're not afraid of them any more, or expressed in another way: they are familiar and you're not afraid of what you're familiar with.
With a view like that I very much doubt that you want to see vampires at all in the game. If you can't accept that a vampire is supposed to look in a certain way, then what you want is another monster which is unfamiliar to you, and this means that this creature is not called a vampire. (And if you want a creature that you call a vampire which you can't recognize as a vampire, then you'll have a lot of people screaming about the picture being all wrong, me included.)
Okay... I would not protest the current form of vampire UNLESS it appears to be exaggerated. I hope no one take offense at this, but the vampire does not look spectacular and detailed like the previous versions. Instead, the ruffles have been simplified, the cape does not flow against the body, the head is long and elongated into a hideous snout, the skin looks like the texture of the pilsbury doughboy, and the nose is greatly exaggerated as well.
I've assumed that since you say so vehementely that you don't care at all about the clothes, it must be the face and hands that are wrong. Those two things are, however, what makes them recognizeable as vampires.
I take that back... I didn't explain it properly. The I care about the clothes AND the face and hands.
Since you 'like' the H3 vampires... IMO these vampires looks as if they'd just swallowed one kg of lemons a few seconds ago. That's just plain boring to me. There's no attraction for me in looking at a sour vampire. It's not making it look either noble or evil.
How is it boring? Neither is the Homm4 vampire looking very noble or evil. The Homm2 vampire looks extremely elegant and noble, and with the strong dark arched eyebrows it shows its evil. However... in the Homm4 vampire, you cannot see its strongly arched eyebrows, its eyes are on fire, and its face looks rather like a rat or mouse, and it looks very happy-go-lucky, rather than a fierce look.
*sighs* All these vampire haters. *sighs*
Nope... don't hate the vampires, just wanting to improve how it looks... but I might end up hating it depending on how it is improved.
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted November 30, 2001 12:46 PM |
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'- the century style: since most of the clothes are medieval or mythological, so should be the vampire outfit.The time is the same so the style should be the same.And stop giving me that "the tailor could have done it". I can't imagine you belive what you're saying. Yes, he could have done it, so a modern tailor could do a futuristic outfit with aluminium foils instead od underwear.Does he do it? No! Why? Because he has no clue it fill be fashionable 100 years from now on.'
btw i was going to say sth almost exactly the same as vladpopescu:
maybe you vampire-in-a-suit-in-homm4 defenders might want to check it out: go to a public place with futuristic silvery clothes (well, we don't know what the future fashion will be, but this is just an example of sth that would probably attract attention in the modern world pretty much the same way as a modern suit in medieval world) and see for yourself how many ppl will think that you look noble (or whatever it's analog is in the modern world). i would expect that ppl would think that you are bit retarded or that you are doing some kind of entertainment job or just some rebellious person who wants to draw ppl-s attention. there might be some ppl who might join you in drinking beer, etc, so you might think that you look charming in a way. but i doubt many ppl would guess that you are trying to look noble, and i also doubt that nobles would start to dress like you. in more official situations i would even expect that ppl would think that your clothes are extremely out of place.
and.. how do we know what is the homm4 dressing style? well, if we look at the screenshots.. it's most certainly not a modern style suit, no matter when or where this homm4 is supposed to exist (i.e. even if it's somewhere out of our time or universe, athough imho it's not good for the game if we have to think that the creatures are some kind of aliens). so, when the vampire goes to a homm4 public place (battlefield, town) he looks like the abovementioned retard, entertainer, or some rebellious futurist. my personal preference would be a medieval style black cloak (as the vampires are darkness creatures imho) with a decorated collar, i.e. pretty much like the vampires in the earlier homms. but i guess that if we wanted the vampire to look like a clown, the clothes of the medieval fools would suit the atmosphere of the game much better, i.e. considering the clothing style of the other creatures in the game.
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niteshade:
one of your recient posts started as if it was a reply to me, but all the numerous quotes that you answered weren't mine. was there something that you wanted to tell me by arguing with that someone or did you type my name in the beginning accidentally because of old habit or sth like that?
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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grythandril
Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
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posted November 30, 2001 12:57 PM |
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I think the vampire looks very nice. It has a heroes II feel about the game.
I think the creatures used are a mixture of old heroes, present heroes and a future of heroes in a fantasy/medieval/dark ages look.
It give a solidity feel of the game which i think works.
Still not sure about the Dragon Golem. but these opinions will be said time an time again.
I suggest we waint until the game is released.
It might turn out that we will adore the vampire and love the Dragon golem.
Who knows what might happen when March arrives.
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted November 30, 2001 01:12 PM |
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Treading dangerous grounds, here...
I agree that the vamps aren't the big issue, but the rest? I'm beginning to tire of this neverending nagging about wait 'til the game is out, we don't know anything yet, blah blah BLAH! (nice reference to the vamps, don't you think  )
I'll tell you what, Gythrandil, we discuss all this for several reasons:
1) It gives us something to do while we wait for the game
2) We hope that 3DO or NWC or whoever might take a hint
3) It's fun to argue and exchange opinions
So if you don't want to discuss HOMMIV until it's been released, why don't you come back here around, say, March next year?
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted November 30, 2001 01:12 PM |
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i wonder why this 'wait until the game is already out' attitude is so popular? especially in combination with 'maybe we will love the vampire and dragon golem in the end' attitude? nwc wanted to create a forge town.. they cannot be trusted.. they are wicked and treacherous.. if they couldn't introduce tech as a forge town, they seem to be doing it little by little now. maybe they don't share the opinion about modern world being out of place in homm?
to me it's like saying: 'put your hand in a fire, it may look like a bad idea now, but maybe you are going to love it when your hand is already there.' well, *maybe* not.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted November 30, 2001 07:33 PM |
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Ah well I think those of us who don't mind the vampire have presented our points quite well, and so far the people who claim the vampire is anachronistic have not been able to make a single point that we have not proven wrong. Some of you are still claiming that, this time without providing any evidence to back it up, so probably not worth arguing this anymore. Can't imagine anything is going to change your mind.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 30, 2001 08:55 PM |
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Vlad, I don't play the game for the war aspects. The creatures and animations are candy effects to make the game enjoyable (and they could also be humourous), and they work overall better than just having a white box with some numbers in the hexes.
You're just deliberating misunderstanding the point. You don't play a game which you don't enjoy, or you may try it but you would quit very quickly.
I'm certainly not playing the game because it glorifies war. That's one of the poorer points of the game. And I wouldn't lend it to a kid who wanted to play it because of the war effects either, while I might consider it if they were playing it for other reasons (like fun, humour or entertainment), that said I haven't seen any retailer which classifies Heroes as a war-simulator, and that was what I meant by me initial statement. Heroes is sometimes classified as an RPG, but usually as a strategy game (assuming the shop has that category.)
So vamp's doesn't need to be recognizeable? Well, then they can change the art of the titan and the vamp and name the titan animation for vamp, and the vamp animation for titan. All logical according to what you said.
I certainly bother about creatures being identifiable as the ones they're named after. (And I don't really believe you don't... because if you didn't there's really no reason to have a discussion on the vamps appearance.)
I don't care a bit about the model artwork of the vamp. (Hey, they can even change it according to your every desire.) Not even the tiniest little bit. Truely!!! I only care about how it looks on the battlefield when animated.
And since I've said that it looks more like an undertaker than a classy noble, then that means that the look probably is from the middle ages, because I believe undertakes have been around for a very long time.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted November 30, 2001 11:08 PM |
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"Vlad, I don't play the game for the war aspects. The creatures and animations are candy effects to make the game enjoyable (and they could also be humourous), and they work overall better than just having a white box with some numbers in the hexes."
Well, just an opinion, but this whole game is about military and economical war, how can you help not seeing it?
What is there beyond war in your opinion?
"You're just deliberating misunderstanding the point. You don't play a game which you don't enjoy, or you may try it but you would quit very quickly."
Indeed, seems that I miss YOUR point...what is it?
"I'm certainly not playing the game because it glorifies war. That's one of the poorer points of the game"
And the strong points are...?
"So vamp's doesn't need to be recognizeable? Well, then they can change the art of the titan and the vamp and name the titan animation for vamp, and the vamp animation for titan. All logical according to what you said."
Oh, no, don't play dum on me...
"I don't care a bit about the model artwork of the vamp. (Hey, they can even change it according to your every desire.) Not even the tiniest little bit. Truely!!! I only care about how it looks on the battlefield when animated."
What diference do you expect between a small picture and a larger one of the same object? Really...
"And since I've said that it looks more like an undertaker than a classy noble, then that means that the look probably is from the middle ages, because I believe undertakes have been around for a very long time."
I can tell you for sure that no middle age undertaker was dressed like that...a tuxedo? This is now really humouristic...Check please the history books...
Now a retort for niteshade:
Ah well I think those of us who don't mind the vampire have presented our points quite well, and so far the people who claim the vampire is anachronistic have not been able to make a single point that we have not proven wrong. Some of you are still claiming that, this time without providing any evidence to back it up, so probably not worth arguing this anymore. Can't imagine anything is going to change your mind.
If that's presenting points well, I better leave you alone...
We, the others, didn't make a single point, huh? If you disregard the historical facts, the common sense, yes, you could say that...but, really you're out of order...
Since our minds seem to be stuck, it's nice to know that there are guys outthere, open-minded, that's a relief...
You are right only about one thing, though....it's not worth arguing....
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 01, 2001 12:45 AM |
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Beyond war? I don't see it as a war at all. All the creatures are merely symbols, just as the pieces in a chess game is symbols. I happen to think that war is both sad and boring business so why would I endulge in it in my spare time? Not everyone looks at the game the same way, and we don't play it for the same reasons.
Many of the unrealistic things that happens in the war actually help in this symbolism. Realism helps to a certain point, but if they say start to introduce blood and gory things in the game then I'd likely not buy it.
The fantasy motive of the game also makes it easier to look on armies as symbols.
The point is. Put in too much of realistic war sim, and many people will quit the game and play others which are much better as war sims. If 3do wants to keep the game going they'll have to focus on improving strategy and strategy related items. (Cretures and graphics are also important to a certain extent, but strategy is much more important.)
The creatures will have to be recognizeable, and if I can't recognize creatures I should recognize, then I'd probably skip the game.
There is a big difference between the large picture (model)and the small picture. It makes a lot of difference. Some defects just go away when a picture is shrunk.
The vampire's dress is nothing 'fancy'. It's certainly feasible a long time back.
There are no pictures of undertakers in history books. It's difficult to find any picture excepts of kings and noble knights and the lowest peasants. Still, there was merchants and other middle class people who also had to dress in some way.
Besides it doesn't really matter if there was. I can use my imagination to picture such an undertaker without problems.
About arguing... You just don't seem to be listening to our arguments. It seems you've already made up your mind and closed yourself for the discussion.
Therefore, you're probably right that this discussion serves no purpose. (Unless, perhaps, as intersting reading for a third person.)
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted December 01, 2001 12:54 PM |
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Quote:
Beyond war? I don't see it as a war at all. All the creatures are merely symbols, just as the pieces in a chess game is symbols. I happen to think that war is both sad and boring business so why would I endulge in it in my spare time? Not everyone looks at the game the same way, and we don't play it for the same reasons.
I know, 'cause you're a girl! j/k
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 02, 2001 08:01 PM |
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ok, lol
1) so the points of those who say that the vampire would have looked like a fool in the middle ages if he was dressed like that are not reasoned well enough?
interesting.. i always thought it was the other way round..
2) the image being small doesn't change much.. it will be big enough to see exactly what the vamp is wearing (i guess most of us have also seen smaller sized images of the vamp). and animation only makes it worse by bringing out more detail (same with dg).
3) to me the game is about survival struggle. it really gets boring in the end game for me. when i dominate.. i.e. you cannot win without massively dominating for a while, you know.. and there is nothing about survival struggle in dominating. and the special ting what i like about this game are the graphics that don't create this cheap i-am-such-a-tough-monster/hero atmosphere, and the small well thought out details about anything.
i just hate the wolves and cerberi of homm3 because they are not well made imho.. and that small detail disturbs me a lot.. and moving towards more perfection cannot be bad for the game, can it? so i wonder why those ppl are arguing so much against changing the game towards more perfection, e.g. more appropriate looks for the vamp and the dg..
do you ppl have sth against homm2 vamp?
would you rather prove that some homm2 style vamp is wrong and it should be homm4 style.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 02, 2001 08:30 PM |
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1. You're failing to understand. Axeoth is not Earth. Whatever is fashionable in Axeoth, we can be sure of one thing. It isn't the same as on earth! (I mean how often does fashion change on earth?) That a modern society finds something hilarious is not in any way guaranteeing that a person in the middle ages would have found the same thing funny. You're basing the argument that people in the middle ages had the same taste as you, which is not correct.
2. The image being small may change some things. There's certainly a very big difference between the model and the battle pic of the Venom Spawn if you ask me. Model looks awful, while the battle version looks acceptable (and may actually be good if the animations are well done.)
My guess would be that the model is probably used to make a 3D image in the computer. This is then tuned and modified to get an acceptable look on the creature. From what I've seen some creatures have several models, which differs slightly, so we can't be sure if the model we se is the one that was actually used for the animated creature.
"do you ppl have sth against homm2 vamp?"
Not me, but others in this thread don't like dracula style vampires.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 02, 2001 09:25 PM |
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djive:
1a) we know what the fashion in axeroth is by looking at the clothing of majority of monsters in homm4. also, a familiar fashion that corresponds to earthly history (corresponding to the weaponry that is used, with the exception of the dragon golem that is out of place to the extreme) helps to create a less alien-like and more fantasy and roleplay friendly atmosphere.
1b) exactly the opposite. i think that hose ppl who think that the homm4 vamp looks good are judging from the modern point of view.
2a) i have seen smaller picks of both the vampire and the dg. having them smaller won't change a thing.
2b) the venom spawn looks like a good diablo creature when it's smaller, but imho still out of place in homm. and i havn't even seen a single medieval picture of a mythological slime creature, you see where i am getting.. imho slime creatures are just lack of fantasy of the designer.
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when you say that the homm2 vamp has the dracula style that ppl don't like, are you referring to the ppl who don't like the homm4 vamp or what?
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 02, 2001 11:13 PM |
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No we can't look at monsters to determine Axeoth's fashion for monsters. Almost each and every monster is either:
1. Rebuked for having the wrong clothing.
2. Naked (or almost naked)
3. A human.
While it may be possible that the vampires should look like human nobles of the time, it's equally possible that they could have their own clothing style, because they live in a separate town. A town which has no euivalent on earth.
As Niteshade pointed out the Vampire's outfit are not far away from those depicted in the Ravenloft expansion (like Strahd).
Besides, for the 10000000th time. Axeoth is not Earth. Vampires are not humans. The designers of the game must design the creatures so they fit in with their towns and surroundings. This may mean that they use clothing, which some people perceive as modern. IMO gamers should simply accept these decisions by the designers.
2. I disagree about changing the size doesn't matter. I certainly get a different opinion about a picture when presented with in different sizes and detail levels. Also, the smaller picture is likely not a copy of the model. It's been edited and improved.
I've got no problem adding a place for slime and white shirts/black coats in the game, I'm not prejudiced against those things. I just use my imagination to give the monsters a place in the game. (I won't discuss advanced artifice and the dg here, there are tons of other threads for that particular monster.)
Read through the relevant threads. There are some posters who don't like Dracula style vampires. Myself I think they're Ok.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted December 03, 2001 12:49 AM |
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Quote:
Besides, for the 10000000th time. Axeoth is not Earth. Vampires are not humans.
Yes, Axeoth is not Earth, and Vampires are not humans.
So...
Therefore, because Axeoth is not earth I wouyld like to see that Vampire looking like some Axeoth Vampire, not earth vampire from B movies.
Vampires are not Humans. HOMM4 vampire looks like human. HOMM3 vampire looks like some fantasy non-human, non-earth vampire.
You've said it all.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 03, 2001 11:09 AM |
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Yeez. How do you come to these conclusion. Now, you're twisting my words.
About the vampires looking like B-movies. It seems to me that you're watching too many B-movies. Spend the time playing heroes instead, and you wouldn't mind how the vampire looks! Besides, a motive doesn't become bad because it is used in B-movies. If that was true, then every motive would be bad because if it is any good then B-movies will use it sooner or later. Saying that something is bad just because it is used in B-movies is simply nonsense.
(And now I can't really judge if the vampire looks like in those B-movies because I don't watch them. Anyway, doesn't for instance elves, dwarves etcetera look like in the B-movies too? (I would be surprised if they didn't) Yet, there's nobody protesting about them looking like in B-movies.)
What I see is that the vampire has resemeblance with the vampires in Ravenloft, and that is IMO a good way for them too look.
"HOMM3 vampire looks like some fantasy non-human, non-earth vampire."
With this reasoning, none of the Axeoth creatures should look like earth creatures. Yet, they do look like people perceive them. So your reasoning is flawed. Imagine extending this reasoning to humans, dwarves, halflings.
(And can we really say that we have had so many RL vampires on earth, that we can say how they would dress on earth.)
I also looked a bit at how humans dresseded in the middle ages. I must say that the heroes doesn't look like they come from the middle ages, at least not if they're going to use the more common fashion. They look more like 18th or 19th century.
The HOMM3 vampire is just not a vampire to me, and the heroes 3 graphics just doesn't fit with the rest of Necropolis in heroes 4.
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Grythandril
Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
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posted December 03, 2001 12:02 PM |
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Does anyone here think that 3DO or NWC will actually be looking at these threads about the Dragon Golem and Vampire and actually change them?
Called me skeptical but i think that it will be very slim and suprprising if they do that. i know we are all heroes players with some or more knowledge about the gam, but do the creators actually value our opinion?
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