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| Thread: 3DO !!! Some Creature Looks MUST Be Changed! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted December 03, 2001 08:27 PM |
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Edited By: Svetac on 3 Dec 2001
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Quote:
And since I've said that it looks more like an undertaker than a classy noble, then that means that the look probably is from the middle ages, because I believe undertakes have been around for a very long time.
-Djive, do the middle age undertakers looked that way like the vampire? In the middle ages they haven't clothes like that. And neither the nobles don't wear such clothes in HOMM4. That's what you're failing to understand.
"What I see is that the vampire has resemeblance with the vampires in Ravenloft, and that is IMO a good way for them too look. "
-On the other hand, the clothes he wear remind me of the nobles in Arcanum. But there is also technology. And those clothes come in the world of Arcanum with the rise of thechnology. So, any conclusion from this one? ...
"The creatures will have to be recognizeable, and if I can't recognize creatures I should recognize, then I'd probably skip the game. "
-Then, I wonder how did you played HOMM3 all this time when you were unable to recognize him as a Vampire?
"I've got no problem adding a place for slime and white shirts/black coats in the game, I'm not prejudiced against those things. I just use my imagination to give the monsters a place in the game. "
-Oh, by this logic, I asume, that the rest of us, who disagree with the current HOMM4 vampire look, are limited of imagination.
"I don't care a bit about the model artwork of the vamp. (Hey, they can even change it according to your every desire.) Not even the tiniest little bit. Truely!!! I only care about how it looks on the battlefield when animated. "
-I've noticed this from the start of the conversion. But in that case Djive, why do you argue about the looks of the Vampire further. You could say something like, "OK the look should be changed but the animations are important, they can make the creature looking noble and evil", and I would've agree with that because that's true.
So therefore I see no need to argue further about the look of the Vampire.
"About the vampires looking like B-movies. It seems to me that you're watching too many B-movies. Spend the time playing heroes instead, and you wouldn't mind how the vampire looks! "
-Offtopic: You can bet that I'm watching tons of every kind of films, as being film director and film maker, the film and the movie are part of my life.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 03, 2001 08:49 PM |
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djive:
1) if all the creatures in homm should be aliens, how is it that many of those humanoids look exactly like humans and that they correspond to earthly mythological creatures from the earthly ancient and medieval times?
imho it is nice that the creatures are earthly mythological creatures. that gets rid of this alien attitude and is good for roleplay. and the axeoth or earthia (erathia) is just as good as middle-earth in tolkien imho. it just means that the continents, etc, are different.. if 3do started to emphasize the planetary aspect too much, it would be a very bad idea imho.
yes, i have also thought about that the fashion is rather undetermined and untimely in the case of many homm creatures except the human town creatures, but they could have fit in the ancient or medieval times without trouble. btw the homm2 vampire that i like so much had also clothes with rather undetermined style, but it did fit in the game. but the homm4 vamp is wearing distinctly modern clothes.
and if you havn't thought about it, the vampire is indeed a human noble that has become undead. i.e. he should wear his human clothes.
2) actually, as much as i know about 3d modelling, what you see in the large shots are large images of the very same models that are used in the game graphics.. i can see no reason why they should be edited.. what would be the use of showing the large images of the models to the public if they are not the ones that are being used?
you sound like it's my first thread that i read, or what? do i have a reason to be insulted? you just sounded vague to me and i wanted clarification on what you meant exactly. so.. again.. did you mean that those who say that they don't like the dracula-style vamp, do they mean the b-movie dracula style vamp of homm4 vs nosferatu style vamp? btw i don't have trouble with nosferatu style, as homm3 nosferatu style vs homm2 style would not be a major problem imho.
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and i don't think that i should use my imagination to find excuses to flaws in the creature design.
e.g. if i created a user interface so that moving the scrollbar downwards would result in the text in the page moving downwards, it would be a bad interface, wouldn't it? if i would say that you just have to use your imagination, it would still be bad, wouldn't it? why the hell would you have to use your imagination to find excuses to my innovations in the wrong place? but if i told you that before the scrollbar standards were set in stone, one well-reasoned alternative was exactly the one described above, would you think that the gui is ok, even if you have to use your imagination although all you wanted to do was just scrolling the page?
all i want to have is a decient vampire, and i don't want to use my imagination to explain why.. ok, let's have a bit better example.. why an image of a street lamp represents a well-dressed vampire in some alien world. and no more alien thing than is needed to explain why the continents are different, please. isn't it a mythological fantasy game not an alien game rather?
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 03, 2001 08:53 PM |
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"Djive, do the middle age undertakers looked that way like the vampire?"
They quite possibly wore black coat, white shirt and black shoes. I don't think any of us have seen a picture of one.
"In the middle ages they haven't clothes like that. And neither the nobles don't wear such clothes in HOMM4."
Well the Lady and Lord is not wearing clothing from that time. Besides women were certainly not allowed to fight in the middle ages.
The nobles I looked at had no pants. That was very uncommon in the middle ages. Instead they had a form of long socks to cover their legs. This was the common way to dress for nobles.
On the same count a vampire dressed with 'long socks' would look ridiculous.
"That's what you're falling to understand."
As far as I'm concerned Heroes 4 doesn't have an Earth time setting. That's something those who argue against the vampires have invented. Creatures come from many centuries ago to perhaps hundred-two hundred years ago. The Vampire is not the only one who send people thoughts to more modern times. You also have the Pirate, and some of the haven creature actually also look a bit modern to me. (And also the female mage. (They don't look like the pictures in the books I looked at.)
"What I see is that the vampire has resemeblance with the vampires in Ravenloft, and that is IMO a good way for them too look. "
"On the other hand, the clothes he wear remind me of the nobles in Arcanum. But there is also technology. And those clothes come in the world of Arcanum with the rise of thechnology. So, any conclusion from this one? ..."
As we've been saying the vampire model looks like a vampire. The ones who are complaining are the ones who want it to have odd clothes or different looks.
There's obviously a high technology in the game. Jus tlook at the town buildings like the chusrch in the haven. that's not the type of church you would build in the middle ages.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted December 03, 2001 09:00 PM |
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Quote:
Well the Lady and Lord is not wearing clothing from that time. Besides women were certainly not allowed to fight in the middle ages.
But the Lady and the Lord are wearing really different clothes than the vampire. Their clothes look like being taken from the age of rennaisance, and that makes sence to me. It's the 14th century, and little later Pirates will come. But the Vampire looks modern - 20th century.
And women not being able to fight in middle ages? Does Joan of Arc mean something to you? Was she allowed to fight?
P.S. Please re-read my post from above, because I've made some editing.
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 03, 2001 09:19 PM |
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if we like to keep this discussion constructive..
let's not discuss a wide range of small issues instead of fucusing on the main concepts. the numerous details are just derived from the main concepts anyway.
A) axeoth is a world that is not connected to earth, history of earthly cultural development, etc.
B) axeoth is a world where earthly mythological creatures are placed in.
are those the main conceptual differences here? please correct me if you feel i have outlined them in the wrong way.
the material of the soles of the shoes of the vampire is just a small detail that is derived from the concept without much effort imho.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 03, 2001 09:25 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 3 Dec 2001
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"But the Lady and the Lord are wearing really different clothes than the vampire. Their clothes look like being taken from the age of rennaisance, and that makes sence to me. It's the 14th century, and little later Pirates will come. But the Vampire looks modern - 20th century."
People were habitually not wearing pants in the middle ages, nor did they do during the renaissance. As I said they were wearing "long socks" like you can see for instance Henry VIII depicted in. Skirts going down to the knees was also a common clothing. But overall from the knees and down only socks. For pants to be common among nobility you would have to go forward to the 18th century. (This varies between countries so some exceptions may be found.)
Since both lords and vampires have long pants, it makes it likely that they're actually contemporary. The rest of the vampire's clothing is plausible for the middle ages, although long pants was not high fashion at that time.
"And women not being able to fight in middle ages? Does Joan of Arc mean something to you? Was she allowed to fight?"
There are exceptions to every rule. Fighters like Joan of Arc was uncommon. So was people wearing an outfit like the vampire. Yet, you say we allow one and not the other.
Overall Svetac, I don't think we have all that much to argue about. I can accept a different look on the Vampire, although I'd say that if they use the Heroes 3 one then there's a no way they can make that one look noble. (Reasons can be found throughout this thread. Too many to repeat here.)
Added due to edited post and Gerdash's answer:
Svetac (recognizing creatures): Vampire is only one creature. I can live with a few creatures being wrong. Apart from that the animated heroes 3 vampire is clearly a vampire.
"Oh, by this logic, I asume, that the rest of us, who disagree with the current HOMM4 vampire look, are limited of imagination."
Well, by this thread some seem to be very annoyed by the vampire's looks. So annoyed that the discussion keeps going page after page, when I really wanted to quit the subject long ago. After all everyone is entitled to their taste.
Why I keep arguing? Because I'm more or less asked direct questions which I feel more or less obliged to answer.
Film director? I can see you have a certain justification for your views then.
Gerdash:
On item 2. Why? To give the observer an overall view of the creature and how it will look. It works the same as the concept arts which are merely drawings. Also remember that some creatures have at least two different models. The satyr and the leprechaun.
I asked you to read the relevant thread not because you're new (because I know you aren't), but because I didn't want to name anyone explicitly as a 'dracula' hater. It's not up to me to interpret other peoples views on what they hate in dracula style vampires.
About your example. You don't interact with the vampire in a way that is different to any other creature. You interact with it in exactly the same way, and by watching it move on the screen. The animation of the vampire is eye-candy.
Watching something and actively interacting with something is two very different things.
IMO the game is not foremost about the creatures. It's about strategy. Creatures are used as symbols to represent "armies" with various properties, and to make the game more enjoyable.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 03, 2001 09:29 PM |
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btw the pirate is also kind of inappropriate imho (and some other ppl have also talked about it some months ago or so, in the same sense as the dragon golem). also, i wouldn't mind if there were no female fighters in the human town, if that was the case. although actually the valkyries and the amazons were rather human and also female, as far as i understand.
and i wouldn't mind if the vampire was wearing long socks if he was placed in the appropriate world. but i would mind if the vamp had to wear a suit while everyone else is wearing long socks. just like the medieval style vampire would look out of place in a b-movie that takes place in the modern world.
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted December 03, 2001 10:53 PM |
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Quote:
Overall Svetac, I don't think we have all that much to argue about. I can accept a different look on the Vampire, although I'd say that if they use the Heroes 3 one then there's a no way they can make that one look noble. (Reasons can be found throughout this thread. Too many to repeat here.)
I just pointed out the HOMM3 version as more imaginative solution as how middle age vampire should look like. The HOMM4 version of the vampire doesn't have to be copy of the HOMM3 one. It can be something completely new and original, and yet look like vampire. But not the current HOMM4 vampire prototype. He's neither imaginative nor original. That's what bothers me.
As far as the female fighters were concerned. I know that the following is off topic, and I'll say just few words. I really don't like so much female creatures and heroes that are fighting on the battleifeld. I hate it in fact. But people seem to love this, and it's fine with me. And finaly I can choose wether my hero will be male, and how does he look like.
I just can't stand that the Elf and the Genie are female in HOMM4. Female Genie? C'mon. Looks silly in my opinion. And that elf doesn't look much different than female peasant. I know that the animation will cahnge much, but I can't stand their look. Not after such great looking Genies and Elves in HOMM1&2&3. Why are they going downwards?
And the look of the TRoll? Come on people, where have you seen a TRoll that is so skinny and looks like a Goblin. I really hope that we're all wrong and that that's actually Goblin representation, and that we haven't seen yet the TRoll. Trolls shouls look muscular and tall and powerful.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted December 03, 2001 11:48 PM |
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Yes, Svetac, the h3 vamp was more imaginative than this one, and even if you can comment on that, you can see it from a different point of view: when you don't know how it should have looked, just put a cloak over it; they did that in h2 and it was fine.
To stop once and foreverthedebate about the middleage undertaker, hear this: I saw one, actually a later one, in the movie "les Miserables"; since the one I saw didn't wear the clothes of the h4 vamp, it's perfectly logical to admit that before him those clothes weren't worn either.The one I saw was completely dressed in black, a white collar indeed, but no butterfly bow around his neck and certainly no polish shoes, but black tall boots.
I will also agree about the female fighters.I suppose the hero-females are quite ok, but no warriors like genies (it's most stupid to make a genie a "she" and I explain it only by the fact that the designer was a "she" too); the elf should also be a him and there will be no discussion about the angel.
Trolls also suck.Big ears and stupid haircut.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted December 03, 2001 11:58 PM |
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...huh?
Quote:
I will also agree about the female fighters.I suppose the hero-females are quite ok, but no warriors like genies (it's most stupid to make a genie a "she" and I explain it only by the fact that the designer was a "she" too); the elf should also be a him and there will be no discussion about the angel.
...yeah burn them all.. women... who needs them anyway... I'm beginning to sound like RMS 
...actually I would like more creatures to be female... ie VAMPIRES (imagine a Serena-like vamp, attacking those poor crusaders... hehe) ...genies always were both male and female so I don't see why they shouldn't fight as well... same goes for Elves... of course that raises an issue... who would hit a "Sexy Elf Chick" ...I'm sure the rogue(s) wouldn't  ..I do agree about the angels though... I just wish they had long hair...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted December 04, 2001 12:02 AM |
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Before stating my full reply to your post,....are you a woman?
Where did you see a female genie?
As about the female vampire....I can't really argue that...it's simply common sense that it should be man.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted December 04, 2001 12:11 AM |
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common sense?
...c'mon man... I would prefer a "sexy vamp chick" to that b-movie Dracula excuse anytime...
...oh, and no... I'm not a woman...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted December 04, 2001 12:20 AM |
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"c'mon man... I would prefer a "sexy vamp chick" to that b-movie Dracula excuse anytime..."
Don't you think the sexy vamp chick belongs rather to an x-rated movie more than an adventure game such heroes?
And between those two (chick and b-Dracula) I choose the later anytime man.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted December 04, 2001 12:35 AM |
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...it was meant as a joke... just like "sexy elf chick"
...and you can't be serious... I've known you for a vamp fan... this guy, disgraces vampires... I don't say "hey you 3DO guys... give us Vampirella" ...i'm just saying "give us a cool vamp..." ...vamps are meant to be hunters ...this guy looks nothing like it...
...if they could give us some cool looking vamps, I don't see why they couldn't be female... in fact I can't really understad your "anti-female crusade" ...please... give me logical reasons...
..oh, and about genies... genies were (at least last time I checked) humans that were turned into genies due to a bad wish, a curse or something... I've neverseen a "no women allowed" rule... damn... I must have missed my genie guide again...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted December 04, 2001 04:00 AM |
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Quote:
I will also agree about the female fighters.I suppose the hero-females are quite ok, but no warriors like genies (it's most stupid to make a genie a "she" and I explain it only by the fact that the designer was a "she" too); the elf should also be a him and there will be no discussion about the angel.
Trolls also suck.Big ears and stupid haircut.
Yes the designer is "she". It's Jennifer Bullard a.k.a. Maranthea who did the creature designs. So ...
Eh, schovinism rulez 
I wonder how they didn't made the Troll female ?
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 04, 2001 05:38 PM |
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well.. if the ogre is female, imho the goblin should also be female.. if they have a matriarchal society in the stronghold.
btw, about barbarians.. seriously now.. i think it would be better to have wolves and shooters (hunters, whatever their race) at the first level.
well, i am not really against having female creatures (although the homm2 male genies looked better), imho it's even nice that they are there, because otherways the atmosphere of the game might become too grim. i am doubtful about the female elves though, especially because they don't have pointed ears, it seems that they just included a not very well dressed amazon from diablo.. i.e. we seem to have a fake elf.. and imho the crusader should be male.. only a man could come to the idea to go on a crusade.. what an excellent idea, lol. and the vampire should also be male.. for different reasons, though. and the looks of the sorceress are bit overboard.. and the skulls on the armor of the necro heroes make me think that they have some connection with the shamanistic ogres.
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted December 04, 2001 10:51 PM |
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I'm not on an anti-feministic campaign, I just want each creature to be what it is supposed to be and not artificially emancipated only because Maranthea or whoever decided that the wemen had no rights in this game so far.
As about the genie, as I know it has always been a male, where from did you get that stuff with the transformations and things...your guide is indeed out-of-date.
The crusader - it would be most stupid to place a female in an armor and sent it to battle.Too much is too much.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Wesley
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
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posted December 04, 2001 11:00 PM |
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Hmmm
I think it's very original to make the genie Female.. It's cool with the male Evil Efreet! the Zombie.. LOL why make her female? maybe to make maranthea sick? But I think the female zombies are a little bit rude.. and I think the disigner is gay! LOL!
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted December 04, 2001 11:08 PM |
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yes, I'm afraid it's far too original. Just like the introduction of dragon golems, THAT vampire and other stupid looking creatures.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted December 05, 2001 12:54 AM |
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Okay. Guys, let's make a list of all the critical creature designs that are the top contenders for reworking.
1. Vampire - new clothes
2. Troll - power look
3. Genie - male
4. Elf - male
5. Zombie - male
I think that those are critical. Some one may say, I think that the Angel or Devil should be included, but I think when it comes to those creatures they can pass. So let's keep OK and perfect designs out of this list. Is there anything that should be added?
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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