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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted June 18, 2008 04:22 AM |
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There seems to be a lot of debate on rules, though we want to keep it simple... no past caesars had so many variables. Well I will stay silent and watch the arguments for now.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 18, 2008 08:09 AM |
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Quote:
There seems to be a lot of debate on rules, though we want to keep it simple... no past caesars had so many variables. Well I will stay silent and watch the arguments for now.
Hopefully, the abundance of debating will result in comprehensible, short list of rules 
Meanwhile, Ves, you might announce the date of season end at least.
Also, your thoughts regarding possible length of the tournament would be very valuable as the playing format (groups or round system vs. play-off right away) is a direct function of it. Basically, you are considering a maximum of 14-17 games versus 11-14 for finalists depending on 8 or 10 emperors. These calculations presume best of 3 series till finals and best of 5 for the finals.
Anyway, I suppose this info from you will help to downsize the horn of plenty pouring out with ideas 
Jinx, you cracked me  I'd say it's been 2 months now... Currently 4 of 9 emperors are counting on ranking system in the same manner. So don't dig under it 
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted June 18, 2008 11:57 PM |
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Yes, please Ves give us this two info, what system you would like to see (basically how long ceasar can go on) and when to start/when the season ends. It would help a lot.
To the rest of the emperors:
Let us hear your words also.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted June 19, 2008 12:22 AM |
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Edited by vesuvius at 00:33, 19 Jun 2008.
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Actually, here is the format for Caesars:
round 1 -- random matchups, up to three games each (best 2 out of 3).
 So total of 3 rounds for final matchup between two top players. If a player is forefited in round 1, another player can take his place (even if he is not an emperor yet). Matchups will be completely random (I will simply roll a dice).
As for length of tournament, as usual, it will take several months, especially when the infighting and whining begins (there will be no deadline enforced unless someone intentionally tries to prolong it). The new season will start on August 1st, whether the caesar is finished or not (which it won't).
There is also an MVP award winner for this season (and very very much deserved to that specific player).
As for version, it is ToTE, non-MOD, however can be MOD if players mutually agree. ALL RULES are mutually agreed upon, or there is no rules at all. Towns are RANDOM, unless again mutually agreed upon. Map selection is also mutually agreed upon, or simply one player picks a map for one game, and other player picks map for 2nd game. If disputes occur, I will take care of it.
Players:
Strider
Elit
Squamous Cell Carcinoma
Betruger
Jorko
Mordaunt5
Kispagat
Fraudatio
Firedragon-008
Jinxer (possibly)
This makes 9/10 players -- we need 8. Therefore I need FULL confirmation on commitment for the finals. Even if there is a forefit on a second game in round 1, replacements can take the spot over.
Eg. Mordaunt5, Betruger, Sq, not sure about their true commitment for something like this yet.
In theory we can have a 10 player caesar, making 5 matches to start, but it complicates things. The reality is always that 2-3 players fall out of the competition due to inactivity/laziness etc...
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 19, 2008 12:47 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 05:42, 19 Jun 2008.
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Well make it offically known that I am ready willing and able to take over for any forfieted spot... I am trying my hardest to make it to emperor  But hard to find games with people in my timezone that are also in my ranking points level... and betruger is still on vacation... and not available to finish our game that is 3/4 done... So if ceasar starts before I get to emperor, please keep me in mind as a first replacement for any no shows or forfiets.
******* Or you can just give me the 10th spot to balance things out.. since I actually have more points then some of the emperors!!
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2008 07:16 AM |
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Jinxer, i waiting to continue our game ... I available any day, I will give you the points if you can take it from me  I really hope that on TOH ranking and points are not above all else (not about Jinxer)
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2008 08:01 AM |
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2008 09:43 AM |
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Haaa, Ves has cut our intentions to the root 
Few comments:
1. Perhaps, at least for the finals it could be best out of 5?
2. If you say that time is not an issue, could we, if all agree, use the system where all emperors play each other 1 game and then proceed to semi-finals right away? IMO this would make the tournament more interesting and match up emperors that have never played each other before...
3. About map selection... you wrote "if disputes will arise i'll solve them". I presume you would be better off without being involved into arguments (even afraid to think about arguments regarding 3rd game map)  Anyway, will you accept the "tournament map list" if emperors agree? I honestly believe that map list is a bright idea.
4. So full random... could you make a small amendment to this and add Kispagat's idea - generate 5 games, each strike out 1 pair and then play the rest 3 pairs for series? IMO, no argument has arrisen among emperors concerning this as it is a really inventive idea that might improve the balance if no MOD is used...
To emperors:
1. Could we make it a mandatory rule among ourselves to follow "Game reporting" system discussed in the 1st post? IMO it will promote TOH and H5 idea greatly as well as help with learning and activity in the community.
2. So Game rules are "no rules". I hope we do our best and can find a concensus before the game. At least to: no mirror, no Wyngaal, hard settings,...
3. I believe if the rest of emperors would voice their supportive opinions regarding the issues discussed above, Ves might agree with that! Seems to me that Ves resents any possible ground for "long discussions and whining" therefore his current suggestions are prone to "no rules" system... Guys, just speak up and say YES
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 19, 2008 03:55 PM |
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My famous 2 cents...... here goes!
-- I like vesuvius concept that Ceasars with likely take few months. After a looong season and fighting hard to get here... we shouldnt try and rush thru. Dont forget there are a ton of timezone issues and some players have work and families. So wouldnt be fair to some of the emperors to try and rush it and cause some of the emperors to forfiet etc just cause some of the other emperors dont have a life and can play 24/7
-- About map selections...I am 50/50 on Vesuvius no map list idea tho... cause I disagree with half of the maps on the maps list... and even with strike out thing... I will still get stuck playing atleast one of the stupid maps that I dont like.. So might as well take my chances with what ves would pick if I cant agree with opponent.. With the current maps list and strike out plan... certain Emperors who will remain nameless will guarentee that they get atleast 1 of there favorite maps that they are dominate on... and without the maps list strike out plan... if they cant agree they might get stuck playing a map they are not well well versed in... rendering them helpless.. And to a lowely bearly Emperor player like myself, who doesnt map maps based on speed and memorization... it kinda evens the field... even if only slightly
-- About Kisp generate 5 Hero Matchups randomly theory... I dont mind it as an option.. For the sole reason that I hate playing Inferno/Dungeon and I might beable to strike them out as an option for me.. This one gets my Vote...if and when my vote counts
-- About Game Reporting... I like the idea! What can it hurt. Nothing! Infact it can only help and would be really kewl to see how the other games are going. Kinda like scouting the other team before a big game!
-- About Rules... I have always been a supporter of adding rules to the game... Because the game can and will NEVER be 100% balanced and void of silly aspects in game that can really undermine and ruin a good game. So unless we can get written confirmation from every participant before it starts that they would support certain basic rules like no wyngaal etc etc.. then will have to hope your opponent agrees.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2008 05:25 PM |
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Quote:
-- About map selections...I am 50/50 on Vesuvius no map list idea tho... cause I disagree with half of the maps on the maps list... and even with strike out thing... I will still get stuck playing atleast one of the stupid maps that I dont like..
Obviously, the ideal situation is where opponenets agree on the choice. What if that doesn't happen?
Example. Let's say Firedragon chooses Hourglass which is hated by Jinxer
Jinxer in his own game chooses Battlezone that Firedragon has never played
3rd game... who would make the selection? would it be ok for both???
Bottomline. The game, besides competition part, should be also a good experience and fun. Then why not let players to choose the map themselves so that both are satisfied? Or at least HAVE SEEN the map and found it good enough? Map list and striking out solves this imo...
Lol, I image the joy in having to learn and play a map picked by opponent that I have never seen while he has done it tens of times. And the same situation for him in my selection. Doesn't sound like an equal situation that surely has to be the case for any tournament, does it?
I msn'ed to all emperors. Hopefully, they will speak up. Please, Ves, delay your final answer for some time...perhaps we can reach consensus among emperors.
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valkyrica
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2008 06:19 PM |
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I'm ok with it, let's start.
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I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2008 06:42 PM |
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Edited by Elit at 18:43, 19 Jun 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
-- About map selections...I am 50/50 on Vesuvius no map list idea tho... cause I disagree with half of the maps on the maps list... and even with strike out thing... I will still get stuck playing atleast one of the stupid maps that I dont like..
Obviously, the ideal situation is where opponenets agree on the choice. What if that doesn't happen?
Example. Let's say Firedragon chooses Hourglass which is hated by Jinxer
Jinxer in his own game chooses Battlezone that Firedragon has never played
3rd game... who would make the selection? would it be ok for both???
Bottomline. The game, besides competition part, should be also a good experience and fun. Then why not let players to choose the map themselves so that both are satisfied? Or at least HAVE SEEN the map and found it good enough? Map list and striking out solves this imo...
consensus among emperors.
None is tell game need start same minute when you agree rules. If i need to play "new" map i will not start game befor chek it careful...because i can't be sure my oponent dont know map very well. I did this mistake long time ago when 1 from emperors trick me for "he didunt know map".
Only fools do same mistake for second time.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted June 19, 2008 08:14 PM |
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some of you do need to stop living in fantasyland though. 5 games per match?? you must be kidding me. It will be hard enough to get 2 or 3 games played in round 1 without taking over 3 months. you will see.
And ideally it would have been nice to have four round 1 games, where there are 4 matchups etc... but again the reality is that games will be difficult to start and finish.
lastly, about the map, one is assuming that the map picker will always win his game. What if he loses on the map he picked? Isn't skill (and some luck) going to decide the best player? The one who is most dynamically skilled on maps will eventually stand out over the ones who can only play one map. This way those single map type players will not survive unless they learn to diversify their skills.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2008 08:40 PM |
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Wuf, just returned from fantasy land hehe Ves, the way I see it is that in all the rounds before finals the winner must win twice. It means that if the result is 2-0, the 3rd game is cancelled. And the same for finals (only 2 top emperors left) - it could end at 3-0 or 3-1...
Mind that ONLY finals could be till 3 victories. Besides, seems to me that at that point players might be more motivated to play and the pace would quicken. Anyway, I'm not too stuck on this...
As for skill, etc. - naturally, you are right. But as elit wrote above, playing an unknown map would require a preparation period. I suppose that could become the greatest rock on the neck for a fast tournament. Map list and striking out would ensure that both players know the selected map beforehand thus effectively eliminating "preparation".
Besides, Ves, nothing is more demotivating or repulsive for me than digging into editor or trying single player. At this point where only emperors are left it's of outmost importance that both combatants have the same level of intelligence regarding the map. That is the foundation for any interesting and balanced tournament  And the more serious players will feel about the Caesars, the more they will study...
To conclude, map list and striking out makes the very long "preparation" period needless and tournament will only gain by that Personally, I could agree to almost any rule except the necessity to study a map...game from game...each round  If someone picks Hourglass - "see you in 2 weeks" would be my answer
P.s. We all have jobs, families, summer time etc. I could barely find 10 hours a week for playing. Would hate to waste that time on preparation.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2008 10:49 PM |
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Quote:
If someone picks Hourglass - "see you in 2 weeks" would be my answer
LoL
So far this will be fast! You realy need to learn this map Strider. Its most balanced map on h5 and give good chances to all faction. Here not way for "cheap" wons. If you want my respect and some other ppl you need to beat good players here.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 19, 2008 11:38 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 23:45, 19 Jun 2008.
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haha I couldnt DISAGREE more. Hourglass has NOTHING to do with being good at Heroes... But has everything to do with be a Master of the Map. That map is ONly about mastering patterns and steps and paths to arrive at breaking the ultra fastest humanly possible... The map used to be a week 5 map... then a week 4 map... now I imagine some players have found a way to break late week 3...
Infact most ( not all ) of the emperors are the type of players that will ONLY play a controlled map and rarely or NEVER a random map.. If you take there Crutch of comfortable map away from them... then they have to spend weeks studying a map to death....
Personally I think it would be better to do it like we did the old H3 LANDS tourny... we created a whole crop of new maps that NONE of the participants had ever seen... so each match was new to all the players... now obviously cannot create new maps that fast... but Random maps are an option... Random maps definately sounds more fun then being forced to play a 253 precise step game on Hourglass
Or Could always choose BattleZone... where no game is ever the same! Or look at both the players map list and they cannot play any of the maps on either of there list... So must pick a map that both ahve not played. Just some ideas.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted June 20, 2008 12:05 AM |
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Quote:
haha I couldnt DISAGREE more. Hourglass has NOTHING to do with being good at Heroes... But has everything to do with be a Master of the Map. That map is ONly about mastering patterns and steps and paths to arrive at breaking the ultra fastest humanly possible... The map used to be a week 5 map... then a week 4 map... now I imagine some players have found a way to break late week 3...
Infact most ( not all ) of the emperors are the type of players that will ONLY play a controlled map and rarely or NEVER a random map.. If you take there Crutch of comfortable map away from them... then they have to spend weeks studying a map to death....
Personally I think it would be better to do it like we did the old H3 LANDS tourny... we created a whole crop of new maps that NONE of the participants had ever seen... so each match was new to all the players... now obviously cannot create new maps that fast... but Random maps are an option... Random maps definately sounds more fun then being forced to play a 253 precise step game on Hourglass
Or Could always choose BattleZone... where no game is ever the same! Or look at both the players map list and they cannot play any of the maps on either of there list... So must pick a map that both ahve not played. Just some ideas.
For begining all what you can do well is to cry Jinxer.
I have few blind games vs Fiur. Few games vs high rank players when i offer my oponent to choice his race and my race, and you can ask Infintus for his game with me on random maps. I just ask him what rules he want and accept them all. So i can play any rules any map and i'm not cry if i loss.
I'm not like so much Strider, but he is alot better from most ppl in ToH. I'm respect how serios/smart he play his maps but he can play any map/rules too and will kick ass.
So Jinxer if you want to test skills on "ype of players that will ONLY play a controlled map and rarely or NEVER a random map" we can do match on random maps/no rules.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 20, 2008 12:12 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 02:42, 20 Jun 2008.
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Hehe... calm down Elit... we are all adults here debating issues.. I was not attacking you I was speaking about things ingeneral and how I see them from my point of view.
But if we get matched up... it would be my honor to play a most respected and skilled player as yourself Elit on a Random map
***** Besides IF I make it in.. it will likely only be due to a wild card spot to even things out at and even 10 slots... so in the long run pay not attention to any of my comments, cause beggers cant be choosers I will just be happy to participate.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 20, 2008 09:06 AM |
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Well, Jinxer is right about the menace of optimization that takes away the skill and surprise of exploring and changing one's strategy by 180 degrees. That is a huge drawback for fixed maps.
Also, I remeber that it was the opposite in H3 times. Everyone played random templates. I was quite disappointed when most of current TOH players frowned about the idea of RMG Templates that me and Zilonite tried to promote. Even though they are so much better than original RMG Perhaps it could be explained by the beautiful maps that have been on the market. But still - only optimization and no discovery.
IMO the real skill can appear only on a blind map. Obviously the luck moment is quite considerable in order of path directions and exploring but the real deal kicks in where one must test his flexibility and array of strategies.
Perhaps with Nevermind's new RMG things could improve. Anyway, in the Caesars that would require both combatants wanting to play RMG. Haven't tested Nevermind's product yet but if anyone wants to play his game using RMG TEMPLATES - ask me and I'll help.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted June 20, 2008 10:46 AM |
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As Kispagat YES
As the representative of Fire(due to his language barriers)
YES
We both accept all kindda regulation.
I suggest to go back to map list what Strider offered, put RMG in, altough I hate RMG, with striking out system. In case of dispute this system should be good to handle the problem. I guess with this solution 99% that people can agree on the map they play.
But I also accept that Ves decides.
I think it would be a good idea to set a date to confirmation of the participation of ceasar, like this sunday perhaps, cuz all emperors had enough time to express his toughts. I guess sq and MOrdaunt is misssing only.
Then let us see the pairings.
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