|
| Thread: War in Georgia |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · NEXT» |
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted August 08, 2008 06:22 PM |
|
|
War in Georgia
RUSSIAN IMPERIALISM STRIKES AGAIN!
DZHAVA, Georgia - Russia sent columns of tanks and reportedly bombed Georgian air bases Friday after Georgia launched a major military offensive Friday to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, threatening to ignite a broader conflict.
Hundreds of civilians were reported dead in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. Witnesses said the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was devastated.
"I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars," said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. "It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."
The fighting broke out as much of the world's attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders, including Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Bush, were in Beijing.
The timing suggests Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili may have been counting on surprise to fulfill his longtime pledge to wrest back control of South Ossetia — a key to his hold on power.
Saakashvili agreed the timing was not coincidental, but accused Russia of being the aggressor. "Most decision makers have gone for the holidays," he said in an interview with CNN. "Brilliant moment to attack a small country."
The United States was sending an envoy to the region on Friday to meet with the parties involved to try to end hostilities.
"We support Georgia's territorial integrity," State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos told reporters. "We are working on mediation efforts to secure a cease-fire."
South Ossetian separatist leader Eduard Kokoity claimed hundreds of civilians had been killed.
Ten Russian peacekeepers were killed and 30 wounded when their barracks were hit in Georgian shelling, said Russian Ground Forces spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov. Russia has soldiers in South Ossetia as peacekeeping forces but Georgia alleges they back the separatists.
Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.
Speaking earlier on Georgian television, Saakashvili accused Russia of sending aircraft to bomb Georgian territory, which Russia denied.
Russia's Defense Ministry said it was sending reinforcements for its peacekeepers, and Russian state television and Georgian officials reported a convoy of tanks had crossed the border. The convoy was expected to reach the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, by evening, Channel One television said.
Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temur Yakobashvili said government troops were now in full control of the city.
"We are facing Russian aggression," said Georgia's Security Council chief Kakha Lomaya. "They have sent in their troops and weapons and they are bombing our towns."
Putin has warned that the Georgian attack will draw retaliation and the Defense Ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.
Chairing a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev also vowed that Moscow will protect Russian citizens.
"In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located," Medvedev said, according to Russian news reports. "We won't allow the death of our compatriots go unpunished."
An AP reporter saw tanks and other heavy weapons concentrating on the Russian side of the border with South Ossetia — supporting the Russian TV reports of an incursion. Some villagers were fleeing into Russia.
"I saw them (the Georgians) shelling my village," said Maria, who gave only her first name. She said she and other villagers spent the night in a field and then fled toward the Russian border as the fighting escalated.
Yakobashvili said Georgian forces have shot down four Russian combat planes over Georgian territory. He gave no details. Russia's Defense Ministry denied an earlier Georgia report about one Russian plane downed and has had no immediate comment on the latest claim.
Yakobashvili said that one Russian plane had dropped a bomb on the Vaziani military base near the Georgian capital, but no one was hurt.
More than 1,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers were at the base last month to teach combat skills to Georgian troops. Georgia has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain.
South Ossetia officials said Georgia attacked with aircraft, armor and heavy artillery. Georgian troops fired missiles at Tskhinvali, an official said, and many buildings were on fire.
Georgia's president said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.
"A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia," Saakashvili said in a televised statement. He also announced a full military mobilization with reservists being called into action.
A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as misinformation, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported.
Russia's Defense Ministry denounced the Georgian attack as a "dirty adventure." "Blood shed in South Ossetia will weigh on their conscience," the ministry said in a statement posted on its Web site.
Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev later chaired a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, vowing that Moscow will protect Russian citizens.
"In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located," Medvedev said, according to Russian news reports. "We won't allow the death of our compatriots go unpunished."
Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and built up ties with Moscow.
Relations between Georgia and Russia worsened notably this year as Georgia pushed to join NATO and Russia dispatched additional peacekeeper forces to Abkhazia.
The Georgian attack came just hours after Saakashvili announced a unilateral cease-fire in a television broadcast late Thursday in which he also urged South Ossetian separatist leaders to enter talks on resolving the conflict.
Georgian officials later blamed South Ossetian separatists for thwarting the cease-fire by shelling Georgian villages in the area.
---
What happened was this: Russia started handing out Russian citizenships to anyone in Abkhazia or South Ossetia who wanted them. Of course, a lot of people did, since then they could travel to Russia and also receive a Russian pension. But then Russia decided to "liberate" its citizens under "foreign oppression" in Georgia (never mind that they just recently became citizens and have always lived there), and have decided to invade to "protect" them.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted August 08, 2008 08:59 PM |
|
|
Quote:
What happened was this: Russia started handing out Russian citizenships to anyone in Abkhazia or South Ossetia who wanted them. Of course, a lot of people did, since then they could travel to Russia and also receive a Russian pension. But then Russia decided to "liberate" its citizens under "foreign oppression" in Georgia (never mind that they just recently became citizens and have always lived there), and have decided to invade to "protect" them.
I disagree.
Georgia caused the casus belli for Russia. So this isn't a "liberation" like Iraq was.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
|
|
posted August 08, 2008 09:23 PM |
|
|
Like Iraq,Afghanistan and Kosovo werent enough. This russian agression reminds me of January 13th events back in 1991,when my people stood barehandedly against Russia's tanks. Of course this bombardment is different from the events of that day,but still... Perhaps this is the recreation of CCCP?
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 08, 2008 09:55 PM |
|
|
JoonasTo:
The accusations of ethnic cleansing are pure fabrications. It's just an excuse for Russia to attack Georgia.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted August 08, 2008 10:19 PM |
|
|
I was talking about the attack to South Ossetia.
But I do agree that Russia has been itching to go into war with Georgia.
Especially before they can join the NATO.
Georgia just happens to be dumm enough to give them a reason.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
|
|
posted August 08, 2008 11:05 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Like Iraq,Afghanistan and Kosovo werent enough. This russian agression reminds me of January 13th events back in 1991,when my people stood barehandedly against Russia's tanks. Of course this bombardment is different from the events of that day,but still... Perhaps this is the recreation of CCCP?
In some way u are right...
Quote:
I was talking about the attack to South Ossetia.
But I do agree that Russia has been itching to go into war with Georgia.
Especially before they can join the NATO.
Georgia just happens to be dumm enough to give them a reason.
Yes but really you believe that joining NATO is giving some guarantees?
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 12:19 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Georgia just happens to be dumm enough to give them a reason.
What reason would that be?
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 12:36 AM |
|
|
history repeating... again...
Basically what Georgia tried to do with South Ossetia is same as what Serbia tried to do to Kosovo some time ago; the difference is that Serbia was bombed by NATO and Georgia by Russia.
Different regions lead to different crappy countries fighting different separatists, and different superpowers bombing different crappy countries. Same people die, of course. But different governments don't give a crap.
Basically, if you're a third world country, it's only a matter of time when you'll get bombed by a superpower. For some reason, that's how it goes. All you can do is sit and wait while the other superpower (one that isn't bombing you) decides whether it should tap you on the shoulder and say "hang in there, lads".
Pretty tough shyte.
South Ossetians fight for independence (well, basically just a patronage of someone else, but psst), like all separatists. Georgians fight to keep their territory, like all smaller countries. Russia fights for their interests there, like all superpowers. Quite the usual scenario.
Not like anyone gives a crap about all the dead people. Well, when the dust settles, they'll either pretend they never really died (if one side wins), or simply use them for propaganda purposes (if the other side wins). But that's hardly comforting if you're, well, dead, isn't it?
I'd love to be able to pick a side here and just sort stuff out in my mind. I really would. But they're all so... bloody same. Can't even blame anyone.
Except for the Free Masons of course.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 12:45 AM |
|
|
Except that neither Serbia nor Kosovo actually borders any superpower. And the US doesn't want to annex Kosovo.
Here's what might happen: after a bit of fighting, South Ossetia (and Abkhazia for good measure) will be accepted as independent, and a Russian puppet will be set up. Then, after a few years, they will "ask" to join Russia, whereupon they will of course be accepted. Then a few corrupt politicians will set up beachfront property in Abkhazia, and they'll also be able to put more pressure on the Middle East from there.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 12:58 AM |
|
|
Borders of superpowers stretch far beyond their geographical place. Note how many USA military bases exist outside USA itself.
One is, quite accidentally, located on Kosovo. It's called "Bondsteel" if I recall correctly. It also happens to be the largest American military base in Europe.
Ah, all those little political coincidences.
See, superpowers prefer to have puppet countries than more territory on their hands, generally. If Russia wanted territory, she would annex all of Eastern Europe after WW2 instead of creating all those puppet states and the Warsaw pact. No, I think they'd prefer semi-independent vassals (just like Kosovo is).
But who knows. That's just my opinion.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 01:45 AM |
|
|
I disagree mvs. what happend is that georgia was pissed at russia starting up 'coaching' ociatia,and they reacted to threat them,it may have gone overdue,russia protects them,another cold war scene.
____________
types in obscure english
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 02:02 AM |
|
|
Baklava:
Quote:
If Russia wanted territory, she would annex all of Eastern Europe after WW2 instead of creating all those puppet states and the Warsaw pact.
Not really. It annexed what it could (like the Baltic countries), but it couldn't annex Poland because it was too big to actually assimilate, and all of the others would be geographically unworkable.
Antipaladin:
Quote:
I disagree mvs. what happend is that georgia was pissed at russia starting up 'coaching' ociatia,and they reacted to threat them,it may have gone overdue,russia protects them,another cold war scene.
Russia planned four years in advance. It handed out passports to South Ossetians, and now it's claiming that Georgia is ethically cleansing them. What probably happened was that there was a Russian provocation on the border, and there was a bit of a conflict, and the rest is history.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 02:18 AM |
|
|
Poland was a part of the Russian Empire for quite a long time actually.
As for the "geographically unworkable" part, look up "Spanish Netherlands".
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 02:31 AM |
|
|
Not all of Poland, though. It had the most area, but Austria's part, if I'm not mistaken, had the most population, and Germany had a part too. Russia certainly couldn't annex the whole of Poland.
Also, in the early days of the Spanish Netherlands, it was before the age of national identity. And remember that geographical unworkability certainly played a part in the Netherlands' independence.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 02:41 AM |
|
|
Russia didn't annex whole of Poland not because she couldn't handle it, but because other powers took a piece as well. But after WW2, there was no one to challenge them. It's just that they decided a puppet state would be more useful.
Heck, after over 20 million Russians died, one would expect they'd by all means try to avoid the country being invaded ever again. That was probably one of the reasons for the shield in the form of the Warsaw pact.
And peoples who lived in ex-USSR had national identities. Even in today's Russia - Chechens, for example, have quite an identity, I hear. Not to mention all the identities in the USA. But while that can stir up problems, a world power can manage such things. The question is for how long, though.
But we strayed off the subject. The fact is, we can't know for sure whether South Ossetia would be annexed or not. However, annexation does cause quite a few problems with international law, and I'm still not sure Russia has enough influence to bypass it, as USA occasionally does.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 03:32 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Russia didn't annex whole of Poland not because she couldn't handle it, but because other powers took a piece as well.
That's true, but the point is that Russia didn't annex the whole of Poland.
Quote:
Heck, after over 20 million Russians died, one would expect they'd by all means try to avoid the country being invaded ever again. That was probably one of the reasons for the shield in the form of the Warsaw pact.
That's true, but annexation would have had much the same effect. After all, call it whatever you want, but Poland would still be Poland, just as Chechnya stayed Chechnya.
Quote:
And peoples who lived in ex-USSR had national identities. Even in today's Russia - Chechens, for example, have quite an identity, I hear.
Yes, but there are certainly a lot more Poles than there are Chechens, and Poland isn't surrounded by Russia.
Quote:
However, annexation does cause quite a few problems with international law, and I'm still not sure Russia has enough influence to bypass it, as USA occasionally does.
What could they do about it? Russia has oil, and no one is going to go to war over Georgia.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 11:09 AM |
|
|
Just been listening to the news. The battle for South Ossetia's capital still rages,hundreds are dead and the surviving civilians are hiding in their basements. Georgia is using some heavy firepower to retake control of the city
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 11:26 AM |
|
|
Wars and rumors of wars..if they break out some wooden tanks I am gonna start getting worried. Seriously though, has anybody else noticed that more and more people are starting wars?
____________
Message received.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 12:23 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 12:26, 09 Aug 2008.
|
@Mvas
It tends to be a bit more complicated than that. Everybody needs Russia, of course (not so much because of oil, as because of gas. It provides the entire Europe with gas, basically). And with the amount of nuclear arms currently present, of course no one would lead an open war against it. But annexation can never go so easy. The world's about to enter another Cold War era, and I think it's in everyone's interests to postpone it as much as they can.
Perhaps after some years of independence pass, and then they make a referendum or something. But that would take time. Like I said, it's not impossible, but it's not probable.
About your other points, annexation wouldn't have the same effect because then they would have to take care of all those citizens and would be a single country; so, if anyone would invade Poland, they would directly invade Russia, and that was unacceptable. The effects would be basically the same, yes, but note that Stalin was in charge then. He had these... eh, ideas, occasionally. Also, the USSR had enough problems feeding and maintaining their people as it were, imagine another 30 million mouths on their hands.
And Chechnya isn't completely surrounded by Russia either.
@Mytical
Wars were always there. But what happens now aren't so much wars as rebellions. People seek their place in the new world order. And it's a matter of time when something serious is going to blow. Until then, we have signs such as Kosovo, South Ossetia, Tibet, those Native Americans who proclaimed independence from the USA and just mysteriously disappeared, etc.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 09, 2008 02:49 PM |
|
|
The world is going to enter another Cold War era? Maybe. It depends on a lot of factors - how quickly China continues to develop, when (or whether) the US gets out of Iraq, how this thing with Georgia goes, etc.
I forgot that about Poland. They also couldn't annex it because there was an agreement not to. But most of the countries were geographically unworkable (how would they annex Albania or East Germany)? But they did annex Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, because they were nearby and relatively small. But your point about not being able to feed another 30 million people - it's not like they didn't have their own farmland. Who knows - maybe Poland would have ended up helping feed the rest of the Union, rather than vice versa.
And the vast majority of Chechnya is surrounded by Russia. There's a small border with Azerbaijan.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
| |
|
|
