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adon
Known Hero
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posted October 16, 2008 02:21 AM |
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Hmmm....okay a few comments on the new version from that replay. That's a WHOLE lotta paladins/champions. Yikes! Second, its usually thanes that do a lot of hurt (their ability to hit a bunch of targets and high speed/high defense/high hitpoints) and in that replay, haven was incredibly lucky in the set up to have a clear path directly to the thane (there were a lot of obstacles). If the champions hadn't one shotted the Thanes in the opening move it would have been a bloodbath I think, even with the beef up. Third and last, rune of ressurection made a mockery of the fight. 
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted October 16, 2008 09:13 AM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 09:14, 16 Oct 2008.
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Quote:
I remember Academy beating Fortress
Well, I don't.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 16, 2008 12:59 PM |
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By week 5 you have quite a few  Maybe even more but that's beside the point, you have the option to train which units you like. For instance if you get unicorn horn bow in the artifact merchants(now included for all factions) you might instead prefer to get many inquisitors. Actually my initial plan was to go for vampirism but dark didn't show up The whole point was that fortress could resurrect itself even without getting resurrection but haven wasn't.
Oh and I was unlucky. With less obstacles I should have hit two units in the initial champion charge
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 16, 2008 01:08 PM |
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That's a LOT of Champions
I don't know how the map is but do you start with them or you can train them using money? I'm not sure if it's such a good idea improving Haven, Stonghold was already pretty hopeless before (they could defeat Haven but very hard) and I haven't seen a replay with Dungeon winning against Haven (only some replays losing - but fortunately it was close all the time though - but if you improved Haven then I don't think it is such a good idea)
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 16, 2008 01:38 PM |
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blizzardboy & Elvin thanks for replays
I love watching nice reps
So when facing dwarves you must be prepared for a hell of a struggle
If you can knock out a dwarf you can K.O. anyone they say
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 16, 2008 01:42 PM |
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You can train them. All factions get 20k for artifacts and haven 40k because it also has training. However training 20 champions(assume you won't retrain them) already costs about 27k. Then there's the money for mentor. If you train all priests into cavaliers and upgrade you'll have less money to spend on artifacts.
Also.. You may find this funny but even with this force haven's fight with stronghold, dungeon or fortress is hard. Because dungeon can now freely get swift mind, the powerful sp artifacts are back and so are phoenix cape, slippers and the rest. And dungeon already had trade guild so it has good chances to get the good stuff.
Another thing to keep in mind is that this is the situation you will encounter in a multiplayer match, usually the fight is week 4-5.
For now focus on this round, I'm still checking them Oh and Azagal, Radar whenever you have time send me an hcm.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 16, 2008 01:44 PM |
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So Haven doesn't start with more troops like before, right? Because it wouldn't be fair since now it has a "practical" training
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 16, 2008 01:53 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:09, 16 Oct 2008.
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No, all factions have same forces with a week 5 modified growth. I assume that they built week 1 tiers 1-4 and week 2 tiers 5-7 and castle. Haven no longer needs the ring of banishment to deal with a necro phoenix 
Necro is the only exception that apart from the initial boosts(100 skelies, 12 vamps, 4 wraiths) they have to pick what stack will join them. You can choose if you want to have more wraiths, liches, vamps, skeletons etc.
When it's done I will make a detailed post.
Edit: A dungeon vs haven replay. Dungeon barely lost but I have a feeling I made some mistakes, beer clouds judgement somewhat This same match could have been a lot different if Laszlo played first(both had swift mind), if he had resurrection, if dungeon had gotten meteor(I had slippers) or implosion. Btw I bought skull of Markal 
Dungeon vs sylvan. Always an unpredictable match but this time around sylvan had windstrider boots, lightning ring, cloak of sylanna AND the armour with implosion immunity. Still it was not that close and Kythra could have possibly acted before the dragons. Seems the secret to nerfing sylvan was just removing certain favoured enemies from the list.
Orcs vs sylvan. Orcs got a pretty sweet setup, their stats decided this one. Even if the ballista was destroyed right away As you can see there's a certain element of chance but that's the whole philosophy of heroes. Do the best with the tools you have at your disposal and let Lady Luck decide the outcome
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 16, 2008 03:12 PM |
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btw Elvin, I have a tip. How about you add a stack of 1k Air Elementals that are set to always join for Sylvan? This will prevent the losses when creeping for the favored enemies (creep with those elementals and then get your regular troops)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 16, 2008 03:43 PM |
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What losses? If you can't take those with a 22 lvl hero then you suck
Necro vs orcs. This one was a tough match, orcs got shatter summoning and back to the void but no shatter dark. Instead they got armor of forgotten hero and resistance which is the best compensation I could hope for They could still take the game with some luck but dark eventually prevailed.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 16, 2008 03:49 PM |
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Quote:
What losses? If you can't take those with a 22 lvl hero then you suck
I never lost but someone else did - I don't want to point fingers or anything, just mentioning that sometimes the ATB start is nasty Anyway I don't think it's a big deal because you can hire them back (you won't lose much)
btw Elvin, I can use the Map Script (and yes it works in multiplayer) to make the map more "professional" without those Conscripts to give resources
If you want me to do this, just tell me what each race is supposed to get in terms of resources (e.g. Haven +20000 Gold, Academy +70 of each resource, Dungeon +50 of each resource, etc) and I'll write the script. You only have to delete those conscripts, send me the map and I won't even open it in the Map Editor - just add the script manually and this is done. (only if you want of course)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 16, 2008 05:42 PM |
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That's a very nice suggestion. Another that would be good if you know it is give unlimited movement to starting heroes. Will contact you later on this.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 16, 2008 06:19 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 22:06, 16 Oct 2008.
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There is a function to modify the Hero's movement points, but unfortunately it seems it can't set them above the normal limit, so I can't give them "unlimited" movement points (I wanted to give them 50000 points, that should be enough but it can't get above the limit)
EDIT I think I can do it! I think I'll be able to restore the movement points from time to time, so it will be unlimited. I'm not 100% sure it will work, but something around 90%.
(not sure if this will screw the Simultaneous turns Don't worry, it's easy to fix if it does)
EDIT Got it to work in Single Player and Hot Seat The only problem which is still left is if it screws Simultaneous Turns or not.
Anyway, it works like this: Every short period of time your movement points get refreshed to full capacity. So if you happen to have 0 movement points (shouldn't happen, but you never know) just be patient and wait a few secs - you'll get them back.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 17, 2008 04:24 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 16:27, 17 Oct 2008.
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That could do the trick.
Meanwhile I'm thinking to add arcane libraries though it will require changing the layout a bit due to lack of free space On the other hand I'm thinking of possible imbalances like sylvan getting frenzy with rain of arrows or dwarves with puppet, is it worth it to make the game more chaotic? Dungeon, necro and academy are understandable since they absolutely need good spells but I'm not so sure about the others. Or I could give it to the factions that cannot abuse it like inferno or haven.
What do you think?
Edit: A cool fight I had the other day with a toher, haven vs orcs. I had an ace up my sleeve
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 17, 2008 04:29 PM |
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I'm not sure, Sylvan with Rain of Arrows + Frenzy sounds pretty scary But then that Library would provide more variety, and I don't think you have a high chance getting Frenzy with Sylvan, right?
Also there could be a simple "agreement ban" not using Frenzy + Rain of Arrows
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adon
Known Hero
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posted October 17, 2008 06:07 PM |
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Orcs got slaughtered there, badly. Did they even finish off ONE haven stack except the inquisitor stack of 1? That doesn't look very balanced, although haven + light is tough for any army except dwarfs with their unlimited runes.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted October 17, 2008 06:25 PM |
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Bliiiizzaaaaaardbooooy????
We have to play till Sunday, Remember?
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 17, 2008 06:27 PM |
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I think the Ballista should have killed the Zealot first, to prevent those buffs. It didn't do much damage with Deflect Missile anyway.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 17, 2008 06:37 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:39, 17 Oct 2008.
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You missed something. Mass deflect missile + evasion = 90% reduction from ballista and centaurs and apart from wasting his warmachine skill he did NOTHING to counter my ranged fire while the champions kept him busy. As you saw he had fear my roar that he never used, he also failed to get shatter light.
Now several possibilities:
-I could have missed deflect missile in the first place.
-I could not have been offered light or even dark as happened in my latest game with Radar.
-I could have gotten the aforementioned and he could have shatter light, partially negating my advantage.
-Another unit of his could have acted first to block the way of my champions that would make his cyclopes a LOT harder to kill.
-His centaurs could have simply shot my crossbowmen first, maybe with unicorn horn bow.
-His hero could have acted first with fear on say champions therefore allowing him to advance his position and forcing me on the defensive.
Or I could have dark and he shatter light in which case he'd be at disadvantage. However in this case a knight's spellpower tends to be pathetic - nothing like my 12(!) that came from arties - and even worse with might over magic. Without puppet, slow or frenzy you can't win as easily so it's also a matter of luck. Then there's the possibility of orcs getting resistance artifacts.
Edit: For the record I lost my last light haven game vs orcs.
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adon
Known Hero
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posted October 18, 2008 12:36 AM |
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Thanks for the explanation Elvin. I missed Evasion as I don't know how you see the hero skills from the replay.
Still, only one orc unit is ranged and he used the mauraders at least twice without shooting and they have no melee penalty. So really the only discount is the ballista (which is big, admittedly because war machines). And the orcs didn't kill a single stack? Seems like orcs have to get awfully lucky picking the right shatter to have much chance.
Good stuff anyway, it can't be easy to balance the factions given that some are just plain stronger at that stage in the game than others.
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