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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 27, 2009 09:26 AM |
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Guys, I know that last time the problems started and we tried to get it back to the MoD Squad people complained..but maybe we should take this back to the Mod Squad? Our arguments and disagreements should not be so..public.
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Message received.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 27, 2009 09:28 AM |
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Quote:
And they'll even be affected by how much the mod had to drink or how good/bad last night's sex was.
I could swear you are talking about the exam rating in Greece 
Quote:
The purpose of the red stars is to encourage quality posts, but someone who's encouraged by them is called a QP hunter. Go figure
Can you seriously not tell the difference?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted March 27, 2009 09:54 AM |
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The cowardly way to go. Oh there is a tiny problem, lets run away to the Mod Squad lol.
Yea you do that. I am sure the problem will vanish lol.
Not to mention we get talked behind our backs lol.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted March 27, 2009 10:19 AM |
- penalty applied by pandora on 27 Mar 2009. |
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I personally could give a rat's ass. One plus side would be that MightyAssMage wouldn't be able to randomly penalize people anymore. I wonder how many he's gonna dish out next Wednesday. Honestly as long as I'm left alone, I don't care what that sadist does for his amusement.
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Go Red Sox!
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 27, 2009 11:46 AM |
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Edited by pandora at 11:57, 27 Mar 2009.
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Enough already RSF. I told you to quit it, and you just wouldn't listen... keep it up and a silence is next.
About all of this - Shadow, my schedule has been talked to death in HQ, and I don't actually see how that's the issue here. If I'm spread too thin then step up and take on the OSM - I've only been asking for how long? But whatever...
As for the floodprotect system, I think details of that should be handled within HQ and ultimately decided by Valeriy. Of course you're all welcome to discuss your opinions here - but that discussion on the details should not be public - certain moderator functions don't need to be free info for all.
Of course there are a lot of great things about QP's, first and foremost - its a very unique and (should be) fun system to have.
I completely follow Bini's point about how we label someone a Qp hunter after encouraging them to gain red stars, but as i see it the difference between hunting and real quality is just in motivation. You can tell when people just want QP's, and really don't have any real care in what they're doing. ie: guy makes a dozen or so guide threads, people copy other people's posts chasing the stars...
*sigh*
I don't know how much more I can say about it.
I just don't think its working, that's all.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 27, 2009 12:06 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 12:16, 27 Mar 2009.
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WHoa, a full QP post!
Imo, QPs are a reward, just as they are an encouragement. If you improve (or help improving it), you get a Quality Point. Logically, it stands for quality. However, what IS quality?
As Pandora pointed out, Quality is subjective. Everyone has a different idea of Quality. It may be unfair (more about that below), but that's how it is. The Moderators are wise enough to see what's quality and what is not. That's why we have multiple Moderators per board, as Quality for Pandora may not be Quality of Angelito, Alcibiades, Elvin or Kookastar... and vice versa. People sometimes argue about whether a QP (or a penalty) is deserved or not, well to these people I would like to ask how they would feel if they we're the moderator and suffered constant criticism on their work.
What I'm basically, am trying to say is: Do not mingle in moderator work. They (all!) know what they are doing. We may of course help them and give them our opinion, but in the end it's their responsibility, their taks, their burden. Criticizing is the easy part. Appreciating is a lot harder.
@ Pan: The QP system unfair? Depends on what you define as "Unfair".
If you mean Unfair as in "some people who don't deserve floodprotect don't get as much QPs as spammers/noobs like Lexxan", then I agree. That's where the unfairness is. However, I do sincerely believe in the potential of these "Quality" members, and it's only a matter of time when they achieve the rank they truly deserve. Star-status may only deceive the newest of newbs, I mean just read one post of a (random) member, and you immedeately know what kind of person he/she is. Everyone easily learns to look past the stars. Status and respect is independent from QPs. I mean, we all respect Father, and yet he's "only" a Promising Famous Hero. And like Pan said, Vlaad already was Admirable before he had gotten that rank 
Some people just realise what quality is sooner than other. I daresay that I'm one of them, as are Asheera, GenieLord, Baklava,... Those are people that easily gain Qps, becuase the know how to gain QPs, and they know what Quality is. Is this QP-Hunting? No, since in every single project they engage, you can clearly see the passion and the dedication in it. It's these two which count imo, as both lead to Quality straight ahead. Is that unfair, just because some people gain QPs more quickly than others? Imo, it is not.
What truly is unfair is that in some sub-fora it's just a lot more difficult to get QPs than in others. Tavern, Temple and Altar, are QP foraging grounds, in comparisson to Turban Tribunal and OSM. For someone who mainly posts in OSM, but who has the same Quality (not QP) level as Myself, QP gaining is a lot more difficult. That's the reason why Father has 3 QPs only, why Mvass hasn't reached responsible yet or why OSM has been a barren, Quote-war laden place for the past few months (though it's a lot better atm). Unfair, yes, as it's a lot more difficult to spot quality in thoughtfull and wise posts than in Creative and Funny posts or Strategy dicussions. It's just a fact, and something we should do something about. More moderators for OSM or more stimulating feedback may be the solution.
I also wish to (yet again) congratulate Angelito and Pan for their work in OSM, since it's by far the most difficult Sub-forum to moderate.
QPs are an encouragement as much as they are reward; QPs should encourage people to make quality posts and improve the community. I don't see anything wrong with that. They are a motivation for people to improve HC, but so what? If the goal is to improve the community, help the noob, entertain the members, have fun or learn, then the true motivation doesn't matter. Besides, if someone is QP-Hunting (which is: attempting to get QPs for Qps, out of truly selfish motives), it's quite easy to notice. Those projects/Posts lack the Passion and dedication that every true Quality post has. Everyone can spot QP-hunters from miles away, it's not that hard. QP-Hunters always get what they deserve, which is... nothing.
As for keeping the QP-System, I completely agree with Father's words on Page 1. I see no real reason to give my own opinion on that matter, if someone else already had expressed my points. However, disband it and giving Floodprotect to every single member? Isn't THAT a (big) bit unfair for those who have worked for their Quality?
Post Summary: - Appreciate the work of the mods
- Do not whine about +/-QPs
- QPs are both a reward and an encouragement.
- There should be some balance between the difference sub-fora, about the QP-gaining matter.
- Quality is Dedication + Passion in my opinion
- QP-hunters are not rewarded. Thus they are irrelevant
Anyway, back to spamming in the VW now... You can find me there 
The end(?)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Oscarius
Famous Hero
*sleepy*
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posted March 27, 2009 12:27 PM |
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I would say keep it.
From a strictly personal interest/gain I don't care about qp's. Sure, I would like it if someday any of my work would be rewarded with a qp's. But I don't post so much that I ever hit the limit of 20 posts/day and that 20-30 seconds of flood-protect.....I can wait that long.
However, I think that qp's are something that is "built into" HC, something that push out HC from the masses of other forums. Also it can be a so-so indicator about the overall quality of a poster for newbies. (Not so much for those who have been here for a whil, you always find you're own favourite posters )
So I say it once again, keep it as it is.
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Need moar avatars!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 27, 2009 01:44 PM |
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Elvin:
Quote:
As for the troll argument I can think of one fellow that keeps coming back for weeks now.
You're not referring to me, are you?
Shadow:
Hmm... That's not a bad idea.
Angelito:
Not if Val changed the way it works.
Lexxan:
You make a lot of good points, but I wouldn't put so much faith in the mods. Sure, most of them make good decisions most of the time, but...
All:
I understand when people complain about a penalty. But why complain about a bonus?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 27, 2009 01:48 PM |
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Quote:
You make a lot of good points, but I wouldn't put so much faith in the mods. Sure, most of them make good decisions most of the time, but...
. Errare humanum est. Making mistakes is human, Mvass you cannot expect them to be perfect all the time. I'm fully aware of this, yet I do believe that the mods know what they are doing and that we should trust them on that. (only if they're serious ofc ).
Quote:
All:
I understand when people complain about a penalty. But why complain about a bonus?
I can think of a few reasons: Jealousy, Anger, Dislike (for the QP-ed person or the Mod), Trolling, etc... either the previous or just a fundamental difference in the definition of "Quality" of two different person. And there are always people who need to have something to whine about. If it isn't QPs, then they'll find something else to whine about. Luckily we don't have people like that in HC.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 27, 2009 01:57 PM |
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The mods are good most of the time, but that doesn't mean we should trust them blindly. We should watch them carefully, and strenuously object whenever one of them makes a mistake.
Quote:
Luckily we don't have people like that in HC.
dot dot dot
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 27, 2009 02:02 PM |
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You're not a troll mvass, not by a long shot  But the other is the one who-must-not-be-named.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 27, 2009 02:05 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 14:11, 27 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
The mods are good most of the time, but that doesn't mean we should trust them blindly. We should watch them carefully, and strenuously object whenever one of them makes a mistake.
Uh? Since when do the members have to trust us in our job? It's so fast forgotten: We watch out the members acting without breaking the rules stated in the CoC, and NOT vice versa!
Some members seem to forget this fact...every now and then...coincidentally of course..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 27, 2009 02:08 PM |
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Quote:
The mods are good most of the time, but that doesn't mean we should trust them blindly.
Did I say otherwise? I only told them that we should trust them and thet they know what they are doing, eventhough they sometimes make mistakes. That =/= Trusting them blindly, not?
Quote:
We should watch them carefully, and strenuously object whenever one of them makes a mistake
There are severall ways to do this; you can do this friendly, or you can sit on the lookout, maticulously watching and analizing their posts and immedeately jumping on them as soon as you see the tiniest mistake. Eventhough the first one is the most desirable, it usually turns out to be the latter case. You don't have to be a mod to understand that that's very, very annoying. [Subjective part here, OMG!]
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted March 27, 2009 02:18 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 14:34, 27 Mar 2009.
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One reason the system is bogus is because it judges POSTS, not the people who make them.
I like to think I make a decent common sense contribution to this forum, have done for a year or more, don't remember. But that doesn't 'award' me any QPs simply because I don't have the ability to make interesting threads or huge posts.
Only once was I given a QP, by Alci for "collective contribution" that otherwise doesn't get noticed.
Awesome system I say
But given my nature it gives me all the chances I need for -QPs but not a single one for +QPs.
Edit: Oh and now I have an even more bogus flood protection plagueing me. I'm not sure why I even bother coming here anymore.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 27, 2009 02:26 PM |
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You make a fair enough point - QP's aren't given in a consistent way across the forums, and quite often members who are a positive part of the community get overlooked because they don't drop the kind of posts that make someone say "wow, give that a QP!"
That really isn't right, and I can certainly see why some people would be discouraged.
So for that much, I do apologize.
However that doesn't justify going on a rampage in other forums because you're mad, maybe just speaking to a moderator about it would work better for you.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 27, 2009 02:26 PM |
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Angelito and Lexxan:
Yes, of course you're right, I just wanted to highlight the other side of the coin.
Moonlith:
I... agree with you?
ZOMG!
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 27, 2009 03:04 PM |
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Frankly I can't understand the discussion.
If the moderators can't agree on a system what makes you think the whole forum can agree on one?
So I'd simply suggest that the mods make up their mind and do what they deem is best for the site.
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Carcity
Supreme Hero
Blind Sage
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posted March 27, 2009 04:15 PM |
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IMO the QP system isn't working. People complain when other get's QP's and they don't, they complain when they get a penality. I say that if we should keep the QP system then leave it to the mods to do their work and don't complain on them. They have enough to do already.
That is one way to do it.
Another way would be to completely throw away the QP system and instead have every member have the same floodprotect and (if there should be any) the same post limit. then it would be fair. BUT that would cause people to argue cause then they will loose their priviliges they had with the QP system.
The third way is to use Angelito's idea of the mods deciding how much floodprotect one can have. that would make it a bit more fair and people would still be awarded somehow and spammers wouldn't be able to post just as often as others cause then it would be to much. BUT that would be even more work for the mods, in having to judge from every post of someone and looking into allot of things before actually setting the floodprotect level. it would also leave alot of people shouting because they think it is unfair.
IMO the best option is number 2. cause it would be fair. And once again, stop complaining on the mods work. Iv'e seen it a lot and it is unfair to the mods.
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Why can't you save anybody?
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Shadowcaster
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Shaded Scribe
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posted March 27, 2009 04:48 PM |
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Pan, check your HCMs.
It's kind of funny, though, us arguing like this when really we're not accomplishing much. It's gonna ultimately be up to Val when he gets here anyway, and I really don't think he's going to want to get rid of his own system. Guess we'll find out in a month when he drops by.
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>_>
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MightyMage
Honorable
Legendary Hero
of INSANITY and DELICIOUSNESS
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posted March 27, 2009 05:16 PM |
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Ok, I have honestly just skimmed this whole thread so I can't and won't comment on any individual posts.
I've been here about eight years now and in my time as both a member and a moderator, I have seen the site change and grow but one thing has remained the same. QP discussions.
I've been to other forums and none of them have a "QP system" or even QP's at all. Most forums give rank on post count alone.
Now when I first came here the site was still relatively new so I assume Val didn't have to deal with QP hunters or people just out to post senseless SPAM. There was no 20 posts per day limit.
The reason Val added that feature, the 20 posts per day limit, was to cut back on the SPAM. We had reached a point where more and more members were just out to raise their post count and Val decided that if each member were only allowed to post a certain amount per day the quality and thought that went into their posts would increase.
As far as QP's go, within my first month as a Moderator a discussion came up that I was a QP hoarder and that I was being stingy.
Each Moderator has their own personal form of judgment based on the forum they moderate and what they perceive as a quality post for that forum. That's how I see it anyway. That's not to say that all of your posts are not worthy and don't add to the discussion in a positive way.
So as a moderator I see the QP system as flawed. I also see no real use in it. But as a moderator, having or not having them wouldn't affect me either way. That's why this discussion was brought to the members instead of our constant bickering in the HQ. Right now, QP's affect what you as members can or can't do on the site. Your flood protect, how much you can post, and whether or not you can rate posts. To some of you these things may matter, others don't care.
My personal opinion is to be done with it altogether. No more discussions on why so-and-so received a penalty. No more threads with lists of "stuff you think should get a QP". No more threats or arguments against the moderators.
That's my opinion on the matter. Take it however you want.
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Though I must still bow
in awe for the awesomeness that is
MightyMage. For he is all I could ever
want to be! - OhforfSake
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This thread is pages long: 
