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Mytical
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posted November 24, 2009 10:31 AM |
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There is not different kinds of hate? Since when? Every emotion has varying degrees. The love you have for a Special Other is different then you have for your child. Or geesh I hope so, cause if not...EWWW.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 24, 2009 10:36 AM |
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But if there is no difference - why call it LOVE? Because it isn't love. Helping someone in dire need of help has nothing to do with love either. Sympathy or pity, maybe, the ability to FEEL WITH people in need. Nor is "loving thy enemy" part of the equation here.
Nope, sorry. What you say is more like a, "play nice with each other and help thy neighbour where applicable".
That's something very different from loving each other, even your enemy.
At this point to me it looks like you do the same thing than those you critisize: you INTERPRET the Bible as YOU see fit, smoothing the things you can smooth, stumbling about others. And then, in essence, you say, people COULD interpret things in a positive way, but the negative things are all negative interpretations of ill-willing people.
However, the point resulting out of this is that there shouldn't be anything interpretable about a perfect religious idea, and if it WAS interpretable it wasn't perfect, and if it wasn't perfect IT IS TO BLAME, since we are not talking about an idea for a new house construction, but about a RELIGION which deals with ABSOLUTE ideas like god and good and wvil and whatnot.
Which is the thing, because Elodin - and many others - are sure THERE IS NO room for interpretation. Love thy enemy means love thy enemy, not respect your neighbour or help those in need.
Of course, that's the next problem. God's word SHOULD INDEED be clear and not to be interpreted - it must necessarily be so, otherwise it wouldn't be absolute and therefore imperfect which can't be.
I hope you see the paradoxical situation here and the problems arising from it. You can try to love the sinner - the atheist tyrants or liars, for example, or the homosexuals, perverts and child abusers - and hate the sin: the murder, the perversion the abuse and pray to god to help you find the way through this mind-bending exercise which then results in what we've seen throughout history because people are bound to fail and constant failure is bad for the morale, you might say: there comes the point where it doesn't help to say anymore that the mind is willing, but the flesh is weak; even and especially sinning is something you get used to, especially when you can pray for forgiveness afterwards.
Or you can try and find interpretations - but then you are on the slippery slope of discussing every word, every meaning, every phrase, of making it all relative - and then who's to know what interpretation is right, debasing the foundation of it all: the authority of god, of something absolute.
You obviously picked the second poison for yourself (while Elodin picked the first - at least he believes that; whether it's really true is a different question); but in that case you have already refuted the basic idea underlying it all: since you are interpreting something, you wouldn't need the bible or god's word or something like that at all; you could just make rules, phrase them the way they convey the meaning best you want to convey, and that is that. Because if you interpret god's message, the absolute authority is lost, so the justification is somethingb else: reason, whatever, but not god, not religion and not tzhe initial idea anymore.
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Doomforge
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posted November 24, 2009 10:38 AM |
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Quote:
There is not different kinds of hate? Since when? Every emotion has varying degrees. The love you have for a Special Other is different then you have for your child. Or geesh I hope so, cause if not...EWWW.
Why would it be different? You just don't want to have sex with your child, means there is no lust part. But you do care for the child, as for your partner, you are deeply emotionally connected to him/her, etc... I see no difference, only that you feel responsibility along with love and maybe a few other feelings, making it different.
There are no different kinds of hate. Degrees of hate, yes. Different kinds of hate, no. You can also love more or less, but it's the same feeling imho.
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Mytical
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posted November 24, 2009 10:49 AM |
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But Jolly, are you not doing the exact same thing? Trying to fit the bible in the context YOU think it should fit in?
Yeah, you should love your enemy because they are Human. If a member of the Klan, the Black Panthers, a Neo-Nazi, A Jehovah's witness, etc showed up at my house..every one of them would be treated equal. They would be welcome to stay and visit, and I would treat them all the same, as long as they realised to leave everything OUTSIDE my house. Muslim, Satanist, Pro-lifer, Pro-Choice, whatever. They would all recieve the exact same treatment at my door and in my home.
But, whatever. It is not that important to me what you believe, that is between you and whatever.
@Doomforge we are going to have to agree to disagree here. The love I feel for my family is much different then the one I feel for say a pet. No 'sexual' aspect there, still different.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 24, 2009 11:10 AM |
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But Jolly, are you not doing the exact same thing? Trying to fit the bible in the context YOU think it should fit in?
I don't think so. I just say, either you have to take it at face value, then - for me - it's not perfect, but flawed, or you have to interpret things, but then it's not anymore what it is supposed to be and flawed as well, so I can turn and turn and turn and turn it - I find fault. But I shouldn't.
Which is the only thing I say or fit in, my main assumption. I SHOULDN'T FIND A FLAW. Or would you disagree?
However, I FIND flaw. Even if I leave all the old-testamental stuff away and reduce everything to love (even) thy enemny, I find flaw, and I explained why.
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Yeah, you should love your enemy because they are Human.
But what you describe isn't LOVE. If you let Jehova's Witnesses in - which I do as well - it's just POLITEESS, RESPECT and maybe CURIOSITY. But not LOVE. Definitely not LOVE.
Love is something special - and not even god loved all humans, otherwise he wouldn't have killed them all, except one family. If THAT what you describe is love you devaluate it, make it something very common - but the worst thing is you declare love something you can CONTROL. Can you control sadness? Grief? But love you can? I don't think so. You either feel love or you don't. Period. Love cannot be rationally forced into the mind, as can't joy or grief - or hate, for that matter.
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Elodin
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posted November 24, 2009 08:12 PM |
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Is that Elodin's private interpretation (i.e. people hijacking the belief for their interpretation) or is that indeed a central mesage of Christianity?
No, it is not my "private interpretation." Jesus said the two greatest commandments are to love God and love your fellow man.
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Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
A person who does not love God or does not love his fellow man is not a Christian. Loving God and loving people go hand in hand.
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1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
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Whatever you think about that - don't you think that the combination of the words SHOULD and LOVE is a rather strange and even paradoxical one? What does that make love? Something persons can bring themselves to feel? Is that it? Is that really such a good idea?
No, it is not a paradox to say everyone should love each other.
Actually, you can choose to love someone. You can choose to hate someone. Thoughts, emotions, and actions are all intertwined. Thoughts are the seeds of emotions and actions. And of course we've all know people who allow for example the emotion of anger to determine their actions. And actions can stimulate emotions and thoughts.
You determine who you will be tomorrow by the thoughts, emotions, and actions that you chose today.
Now, Christians have some advantages over atheists when it comes to loving people. First, the Christian worldview. Second, the Spirit of God.
Christianity teaches that every person is special and loved by God. Each human being has something of the image of God in them. If you believed that then it would be easy to love people.
See, when I look at a person I see someone of worth. Someone Christ loved so much that he died for.
Now atheists are in a different position in viewing people. But several atheists argued that they see eveyone as having worth too, even though that would seem to be contrary to materialistic atheism. So whatever it is that makes some atheists think a human being has worth by virtue of being a human being, focus on that.
Oh, and there are certainly different kinds of love. My love of my wife is differnt from my love for my dog.
I'm sorry that you consider the teaching that evey one should love each other to be a flawed teaching. Perhaps some day you will come to a different conclusion. You could not build a paradise on everyone not hating each other. But you could build a paradise on everyone loving each other.
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However, the point resulting out of this is that there shouldn't be anything interpretable about a perfect religious idea, and if it WAS interpretable it wasn't perfect, and if it wasn't perfect IT IS TO BLAME, since we are not talking about an idea for a new house construction, but about a RELIGION which deals with ABSOLUTE ideas like god and good and wvil and whatnot.
Sorry, but as long as ideas are expressed in a language sentences can be misinterpreted. Typically misinterpretations come about because:
1) The reader/listener does not want to know the truth. He is looking for something to attack rather than to understnd what the statements are saying.
2) The reader is not taking for example a Bible verse or a sentence in a book or speech out of context.
Please don't claim that you have never heard the press or an opposing political party lift a politician's statement out of context to make it say something it did not say in the context in which it was spoken.
That has nothing to do with "the politician not speaking perfectly." It has to do with deliberate dishonesty of other people.
3) The reader does not comprehend what he read. Lack of comprehension can come because of a numbe of reasons. A person could just have poor reading ability. He may not know the basic teachings behind what he read and therefore is unprepared for the "meat of the message."
Knowledge is obtained "line upone line and precept upon precept." In other words, you have to learn some things before you can learn others. This is true for both the "secular" and "religious" teachings.
You don't start someone in pre-kindergarten with no mathematical backgroud in calculus. You start off making sure he can count.
Aside from the obvvious fact that a person can misunderstand the "surface meaning" of the Bible a non-believer just plain can't understand many things in the Bible because the Spirit is needed for enlightenment of those things.
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Which is the thing, because Elodin - and many others - are sure THERE IS NO room for interpretation.
Yes, generally the Bible presents straighforward teachins. Love thy neighbor is pretty straightforward. You just think it si a bad idee to love eveeryone and that it can't be done. You are wrong.
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there comes the point where it doesn't help to say anymore that the mind is willing, but the flesh is weak; even and especially sinning is something you get used to, especially when you can pray for forgiveness afterwards.
Christians have the advantage of having the Spirit of God. But I've already stated your thoughts, emotions, and actions are all intermingled/interrelated and you can indeed chose to love someone.
Anyways, everyone have a happy Thanksgiving. We're about to go out of town to spend the holiday with relatives. Have fun and do something special for your family. God bless.
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TheDeath
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posted November 24, 2009 10:12 PM |
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But what you describe isn't LOVE. If you let Jehova's Witnesses in - which I do as well - it's just POLITEESS, RESPECT and maybe CURIOSITY.
Can be love as well. If you let them in, this doesn't tell you anything WHY you did it, so I don't see how your example is supposed to work.
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Love is something special
No it is not any more "special" than other feelings. Can you be more ambiguous though, it's constructive. 
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and not even god loved all humans, otherwise he wouldn't have killed them all, except one family.
He loved them, he didn't like what they did, but they could have chosen differently instead. Remember also that God is supposed to be just as well, not just loving.
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If THAT what you describe is love you devaluate it, make it something very common
it is pretty common.
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Can you control sadness? Grief? But love you can? I don't think so. You either feel love or you don't. Period. Love cannot be rationally forced into the mind, as can't joy or grief - or hate, for that matter.
And you base this on what exactly?
I have and did control my hate, once even wrath-like, I controlled my grief as well.
What, exactly, is your basis to make your statements?
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bixie
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posted November 24, 2009 10:46 PM |
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Elodin, Can I just pull you up on something....
you claim you are a true christian
you say that it is the job of every christian to love everyone
and yet you display distinct hostility to atheist "Tyrants", marxists, Communists, socialists, the obama administration, and people on this board...including the mods...
by you're own logic, Elodin, You are not a true christian.
and before you harp on about "you were the one's throwing insults about", surely jesus didn't throw a hissy fit when the people of jerusalem spat on him whilst carrying his cross, and you hold him up as an exemplar. so your retorts, your suggestions that we might all be educationally substandard, claims that we are liars, are only proving that you are not a true christian by your own logic.
now find a new religion before allah gets angry.
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Elodin
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posted November 28, 2009 06:00 PM |
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and yet you display distinct hostility to atheist "Tyrants", marxists, Communists, socialists, the obama administration, and people on this board...including the mods...
Sigh....
Define hostile. Do I object to atheist tyrants murdering people by the millions? Yep. Do I object to marxists/communists/socialists stealing from one group of people to give to another? Yes. Do I object to Obama lying about who he is and to him appointed communits/Marxists/socialists to his administration? Yes. Do I object when moderators seem to use their power to benefit one side in a debate? Yes. Like I said, equal playing field for all.
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by you're own logic, Elodin, You are not a true christian.
Sorry, you are quite wrong and your knowledge of the Bible is lacking.
Jesus had harsh words for people who were deliberately being dishonest. He did not mind calling them liars. It is not wrong to call a murderer a murderer or a liar a liar. Although I am very careful about directly calling anyone a liar on the board, I have to make a qualification related to their false statements.
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and before you harp on about "you were the one's throwing insults about", surely jesus didn't throw a hissy fit when the people of jerusalem spat on him whilst carrying his cross, and you hold him up as an exemplar. so your retorts, your suggestions that we might all be educationally substandard, claims that we are liars, are only proving that you are not a true christian by your own logic.
I never called everyone a liar. Now, if you lie, expect your lie to be pointed out. If you think Jesus did not call deliberately dishonest poeple liars, you need to read the New Testament again.
Oh, I am not Jesus dying for the sins of the world. I don't have to let you slap me around and torture me to death.
I personally prefer for discussions to be civil but some people on the board are seemingly incapable of a civil discource.
Anyways, I hope you have a good weekend.
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ohforfsake
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posted November 28, 2009 06:05 PM |
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Jesus said the two greatest commandments are to love God and love your fellow man.
Okay, let's try it your way then, what are the arguments behind following these commandments?
And what attributes do you assign to Jesus to define him?
Same question about God.
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bixie
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posted November 28, 2009 07:24 PM |
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I have to say, I was using your logic, saying that you believe that All christians love everyone. Whilst I don't object to that statement, and think that universal love is a welcome dream, I do find it somewhat Ironic that you attack with such venom figures like Micheal moore and Barack obama, calling the latter a liar and the former a communist in the same way that The Daily mail call foriegn nationals "Illegal immigrants".
I find it strange that someone who believes that Christians love everyone, and who claims to be a christian, contains such venom in his speachs. Even if it's true, surely your christian lovegiving powers outways your rightwing fury if you believe yourself a christian. even if they are abusing their powers, you should bypass that, acheive transcedence and ignore what they say about your religion and be happy in your own understanding of your holy text.
It's just a logic point, but a fairly crucial one.
It's nothing to do with the bible, Elodin, it's everything to do with your own statement.
oh thank you very much, I'll file that under well-intentioned-but-could-be-misinterpreted-as-some-kind-of-mafia-like-threat.
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TheDeath
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posted November 28, 2009 07:34 PM |
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bixie, liar, murderer, and others when used properly are not insults, just truthful classifications. I'm not sure how valid it is what he says (and uses these words) but I don't think your point is quite correct.
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bixie
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posted November 28, 2009 07:56 PM |
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bixie, liar, murderer, and others when used properly are not insults, just truthful classifications. I'm not sure how valid it is what he says (and uses these words) but I don't think your point is quite correct.
I'm not saying insults...I am saying hostile intent...
Let's face it, no matter how you look at it, Liar and Murderer are words with negative conatations. you can't say "oh, he's a murderer for justice," without having an oxymoron.
if he had said that some of micheal moores films he has potrayed the facts wrong, then yeah, that would be right. but no, he said that Micheal moore is a liar, full stop. A) no he isn't, at least not all the time, and B) such a statement carries with it the negative intent, which, by his logic that christians love everything, would not be there if he was the christian he claimed to be.
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TheDeath
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posted November 28, 2009 07:57 PM |
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Why not? If someone is a murderer, how could you otherwise call him?
However, saying "He's a murderer and deserves to be punished" is a whole different matter, if that's what you are talking about. 
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bixie
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posted November 28, 2009 08:10 PM |
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Why not? If someone is a murderer, how could you otherwise call him?
However, saying "He's a murderer and deserves to be punished" is a whole different matter, if that's what you are talking about.
What I am saying is the negative intent behind the choice of words...though to be fair, there are very few words for a killer that are positive...
Murder conjures up pictures of micheal myers running through a house with a knife, maliciously killing people.
killer makes people think of someone doing it without emotion.
soldier, again, but you could argue that he's only doing his job and might not want to kill.
Slayer?
no, I don't think there are any words that are positive for death.
but words like Liar were chosen by Elodin probably specifically for their negative imagery and their anti-positive conatations they bring. similarly, his use of words like Marxist, Socialist and communists... they're theories, but he's using the words as though they are negative aspects of a character.
and again, he's said that Christians love everyone, and thus, negative intent should not be in his writings if his is the christian he say's he is.
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Elodin
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posted November 28, 2009 11:15 PM |
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if he had said that some of micheal moores films he has potrayed the facts wrong, then yeah, that would be right. but no, he said that Micheal moore is a liar, full stop. A) no he isn't, at least not all the time, and B) such a statement carries with it the negative intent, which, by his logic that christians love everything, would not be there if he was the christian he claimed to be.
You seem to be under some misunderstanding that a Christian is not allowed to speak the truth if the truth shows someone to be a liar for instance. Like I said before, you should actually read the Bible. Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, and the apostles spoke very plainly and strongly to dishonest poeple. Christians don't have to "pull punches" when dealing with deliberately dishonest people.
Tough love. Here are a couple of verses. One spoken by Jesus, the other by the Apostle John.
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Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
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Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
So, yeah, Michal Moore lied a number of times in his "documentaries" so he is a liar.
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mvassilev
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posted November 28, 2009 11:21 PM |
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ohforfsake
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posted November 28, 2009 11:22 PM |
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Elodin, please remember the difference of lying, and be mistaken.
You seem to use these two words wrong throughout most of this debate.
Also, aren't you going to reply to my post? 
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Elodin
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posted November 28, 2009 11:53 PM |
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Elodin, please remember the difference of lying, and be mistaken.
You seem to use these two words wrong throughout most of this debate.
Also, aren't you going to reply to my post?
No I haven't. Quote examples with links where you think I have said something was a lie that was a mere mistake.
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quote:
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Jesus said the two greatest commandments are to love God and love your fellow man.
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Okay, let's try it your way then, what are the arguments behind following these commandments?
And what attributes do you assign to Jesus to define him?
Same question about God.
What do you mean by "what are the arguments behind following these commands?" JJ had claimed it was my private interpretation that the New Testament says everyone should love each other. I showed that love is foundational to Christianity by the words of Christ.
By the way, both of those commandmentas are in the Old Covenant writings as well. Jesus was explaining to the man what the most important things were that God had commanded.
Jesus is God existing as a [now glorified] human being.
Two thousand years ago God began to exist as the man Jesus Christ without ceasing to exist as the Spirit who fills and transcends all of time and space. In Christ God lived a sacrificial life and died a sacrificial death. Christ rose bodily from the dead, was glorified, and sits on the throne of God. The thron of David and the throne of God are now one. God existing as a man sits upon that throne.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 29, 2009 10:59 AM |
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JJ had claimed it was my private interpretation that the New Testament says everyone should love each other.
I could call you a liar for that.  I THINK (as aooposed to I know), that your mind just read what you wanted to read, because you are so keen on finding fault in what "the enemy" says, and I don't think that attitude is much better than being a liar from the viewpoint of your religion. This isn't the first time you read something that just isn't there. The thinh is, it DOES happen sometimes, even the most good-willing people, and it helps to keep that in mind, before starting to retaliate, because sometimes there simply have been no attack.
That would be a matter of course, if the demand was to simply respect people and consider the possibility of an error or for good reasons for their doing on their side, but loving people seem to imply to always assume the worst about them.
However, Christianity doesn't get to define what love is, I think.
So let me try to help you seeing your error here and quote the relevant part of my post from last page again:
(JJ) Quote:
Just for clarification, Mytical, before you add to your post.
(Elodin)Quote:
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Yes, loving everyone should be the goal of every person. The world would be a much better place if everyone loved one another. It is not enough to just not hate others. "Not hating" does not inspire a person to help others. Love does.
Is that Elodin's private interpretation (i.e. people hijacking the belief for their interpretation) or is that indeed a central mesage of Christianity?
Whatever you think about that - don't you think that the combination of the words SHOULD and LOVE is a rather strange and even paradoxical one? What does that make love? Something persons can bring themselves to feel? Is that it? Is that really such a good idea?
See? This is a post of me directed to Mytical - he wanted to add to his post later, and I ASKED HIM A QUESTION. I quoted you, saying, yes, everyone should love each other, that's what the Bible says, and ASKED him, whether HE would think that was your private interpretation of the Bible or indeed the central message of Christianity. The reason was that Mytical had given that question wide berth, that's why I basically had to nail him on the fact that Christianity does indeed demands loving each other.
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This thread is pages long: 
