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Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 07, 2009 12:58 PM |
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What a nice God
That let's millions of people starve and die. And apparently Heaven is not for everyone either. When the "apocalypse" come only those specially elected will be saved from that cataclysm.
People shouldn't be afraid to do a mistake or "breaking the Sun God 2.0s word".
Indeed. This has been one of my arguements for people saying that I as a satanist is evil for believing in the biblical devil (which is also wrong). If you read the old testament go is really the "evil" one, and he doesn't do very much in the new testament. How ever, this is only christianity, I don't really think you know that much about other religions, right? But, hey! You tell me!
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Moral
We do not need religion to know what is right and wrong.
Unless you are a stupid you would know that it's wrong to steal a bike or wrong to murder. These "laws" don't come from religion, they come from our own common sense and perhaps ancient Greek philosophies.
You do realize that religion has been around far longer than greek philosofy, tight? Besides, why would it be wrong to teach the ethics from religions and not from a law book or greek philosofy? They all say pretty much the same, but for different reasons. So that's just sayin that something isn't right, just because the wrong guy told you so.
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Death
Most likely you will cease to exist when you die.
I don't get why it's hard for some people to understand that you cease to exist. Why would we live on? There is a reason we die. It doesn't make any sense that we would suddenly be ressurected and live in some other form again.
And if you do believe in this stuff then does Heaven etc only apply to humans? Are humans special to religious people? Are other animals then humans not considered worthy to live in Heaven or live on after death?
And what would the reason we don't live on be? Just because that is outside your "logical" frame? We all have different perspectives. All different "logic" and so different "trues".
And I'm sure you've noticed that there is something fundamentally different abaout humans, compared to animals, haven't you?
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Psychology
If you had psychic problems would you:
A) Go to a Priest or something similar that follows "Gods word".
B) A skilled psychologist that has education on the subject.
To me, the answer is obvious. I would take the educated psychologist.
The main part about solving a psychology problem is that the one to be "cured" talk to a person he can trust, and that he believes talking to that person will help. Mostly it's just releasing stress and pressure by talking it out, preferably to a neutral factor. So if you feel more "safe" with a priest, it'll most likely work better. This is off course only unless you have serious problems. If you have a psychological disorder/disease a psychologist propably is better. Thing is, psychology is a very young sience, with a very subtle and almost invisible target. Before, priests had the position of social healing, so it migh just be tradition to.
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Free will
Teaching your child biblical tales as the ultimate truth, circucing your son without his opinion and letting certain religious people to skip for instance sexual education are all things that agains't the individual rights of a person. Did the child get the choice to believe in God or was he/she influenced by his parents? Did the son choose to get circumciced when he was a baby?
Or should the child be able to get his own opinion on religion when he/she grows older? When she/he chooses confirmate.
This is actually laughable! Haha!
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Membership in the Church
I am a member in the Swedish church. A lot of the population is. Because many of us were forced to be that. It used to be like this that when a parent was a member of the Church, the child would automatically be that too. This wasn't the case for me. I got baptized agains't my will. And my parents aren't even religious. Let children choose if they want to be a member of the church or not when they get the choice to confirm themselves.
I will defintly leave the church. I have nothing to do there (only tradition). If I marry then it would be in an atheist church.
You are able to leave the church at any time, but is true that most people in Sweden are members if the church, evn if they aren't religious or even if they are atheist. So just leave if you want to. K?
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Love
Love is something that has been heavily influenced by religion. The marriage between a man and a woman is "holy".
But what is a marriage between two men or two women then? Damned? Unholy? Marriage has been made up by religion and people should be able to love each other (even if it's an one night stand) without the influence of society.
Woman
Woman are far from equal in many religions. Look at the American society today. Many woman live as "slaves" in the house, as housewives. They don't get to work and don't get to be independant. They get to be the mans tool.
The Bible says that sin comes from women or something like that. The Koran says that the God despises women. In the Jewish morning prayer it basically says "Thank for letting me not become a woman".
In a modern society men and women should be equal. Religion has shaped a society where the Man dominates the Woman. W M.
The answers to both of these are simple. Religion is old. It is REALLY old! Can you say one country that wasn't sexist two thousand years ago?
Abortion
I don't see whats wrong here either.
It's the womans choice. Even though the woman and her boyfriend should discuss it it's still the woman carrying the baby and her choice. Every year more then 70,000 woman die because of illegal and insecure abortions.
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Because of two reasons. First it's tradition. An an ancient rule of christianity (I just ssume that almost everything you say is about christianity. Is that ok?). It's called ethics by rule. You follow a preset of rules, at all times. Like laws! Secondly, you could say that it's killing. When a woman is pregnant, there's a life growing inside of her (surely you know this), and the purpose of an abortion is to kill that life. But then sex could be considered murder to, right? It kills a lot of sperms! And menstruation?
So it all comes to the question: When does a life start living? At birth? As the plants his seed? When baby has developed a heart? When the kid is 3.8467 years old after birth? When the sperm is created? When the egg is created? Sorry for the unnecessary amounts of examples!
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 07, 2009 02:03 PM |
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Indeed. This has been one of my arguements for people saying that I as a satanist is evil for believing in the biblical devil (which is also wrong). If you read the old testament go is really the "evil" one, and he doesn't do very much in the new testament. How ever, this is only christianity, I don't really think you know that much about other religions, right? But, hey! You tell me!
Where does it say that it's only about christianity? It's about the biblical mythology (which includes the koran and tora) overall. I'm not talking about Hinduism or Buddhism since those religions are very different from the biblical religions that "reign" in the western world.
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You do realize that religion has been around far longer than greek philosofy, tight? Besides, why would it be wrong to teach the ethics from religions and not from a law book or greek philosofy? They all say pretty much the same, but for different reasons. So that's just sayin that something isn't right, just because the wrong guy told you so.
Uhm yeah obviously. Greek mythology is also a religion.
We don't need to learn ethics from religion. They are already obvious. We don't need religion at all. It only causes problems in the world. Terrorism and the whole Israel VS Palestina conflict (I think they should just make a new country called Palesrael or something but I don't think that is very likely to happen lol).
I have opened a Bible like once in school when we had a Religion theme and I still don't go around a kill people or rob them. I am still a good citizen.
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And what would the reason we don't live on be? Just because that is outside your "logical" frame? We all have different perspectives. All different "logic" and so different "trues".
And I'm sure you've noticed that there is something fundamentally different abaout humans, compared to animals, haven't you?
Uhm well there must be a reason we die? Like prevent overpopulation etc. I agree that this is more of a very personal opinion and it's just me that don't view humans as the supreme overlords of the Earth and that can accept that we aren't special and wont be granted some special afterlife paradise.
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bla bla priest/psychologist (I accidently removed this part of your text lol)
Still, to ME it would would much more sense to seek "help" hos en educated and skilled psychologist then some priest. And it's a psychologists
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This is actually laughable! Haha!
What a great argument. I think telling your kids that God exists and being forced to become a member of the church at birth is the most horrible thing of all. It takes away all free will and most likely a religiously raised kid will become a christian or a muslim or a jew as an adult too. Parents that raise their children with a religion takes away their kids individual rights.
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You are able to leave the church at any time, but is true that most people in Sweden are members if the church, evn if they aren't religious or even if they are atheist. So just leave if you want to. K?
The point was that most people that are members of the Church has been "forced" to join it. As a baby, I couldn't say to my parents: "Please don't christen me, I don't want to be a member of the church. I do not want to support it in any way."
Actually, I filled my "Leave Church paper" today and am going to send it soon. I hope to get a fight with the church too 
But the members of the church is dropping every a lot every year. I hope the law will change later so that christening children becomes illegal. I sure wont pay the church taxes.
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The answers to both of these are simple. Religion is old. It is REALLY old! Can you say one country that wasn't sexist two thousand years ago?
Then renew it? The Pope can just say that "God sent me a message to renew the Bible! Bla bla bla propaganda. Done."
I'm still convinced that religion caused wpmen to be of less worth then men.
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Because of two reasons. First it's tradition. An an ancient rule of christianity (I just ssume that almost everything you say is about christianity. Is that ok?). It's called ethics by rule. You follow a preset of rules, at all times. Like laws! Secondly, you could say that it's killing. When a woman is pregnant, there's a life growing inside of her (surely you know this), and the purpose of an abortion is to kill that life. But then sex could be considered murder to, right? It kills a lot of sperms! And menstruation?
So it all comes to the question: When does a life start living? At birth? As the plants his seed? When baby has developed a heart? When the kid is 3.8467 years old after birth? When the sperm is created? When the egg is created? Sorry for the unnecessary amounts of examples!
What tradition? Is it tradition to take away a womans choice if she wishes to not give birth to her baby?
It's not murder because it hasn't evolved to a "real" baby yet.
To consider abortion murder is just silly. It doesn't feel anything. Then as you said, you could consider sex would be murder too. If a woman doesn't want to give birth to a child then it's her choice, not anyone elses.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 07, 2009 02:19 PM |
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Then renew it? The Pope can just say that "God sent me a message to renew the Bible! Bla bla bla propaganda. Done."
I'm still convinced that religion caused wpmen to be of less worth then men.
Do you really think that would work? And as I (almost) said, catholism (i.e. the pope) goes by the rule ethics thing, they have to follow their set of rules. Do you think a judge in a court could just change the laws he thinks are stupid whenever he wishes?
But that religions have caused a lot of conservative things. You know, by deniyng people free speech and killing scientists who came with theories which went across their thoughts and believes (even when not related to religion), but to say that it's their fault alone.
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What tradition? Is it tradition to take away a womans choice if she wishes to not give birth to her baby?
Yep, I never said traditions are smart. They justify stupid stuff, but they also comfort people and gives them "safety".
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It's not murder because it hasn't evolved to a "real" baby yet.
To consider abortion murder is just silly. It doesn't feel anything. Then as you said, you could consider sex would be murder too. If a woman doesn't want to give birth to a child then it's her choice, not anyone elses.
But it is murder to kill a seven year old boy because the mother doesn't want to raise it. So the question is, WHEN does a life count as a life? And when is murder murder? Is it murder to abort when ninth month pregnant? Is it murder if she's nine month pregnant, but got pregnant by getting raped? Is it murder to kill a three months old baby? One month? A week? A day? Month before birth? In fifth month?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 07, 2009 10:50 PM |
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Indeed. This has been one of my arguements for people saying that I as a satanist is evil for believing in the biblical devil (which is also wrong). If you read the old testament go is really the "evil" one, and he doesn't do very much in the new testament. How ever, this is only christianity, I don't really think you know that much about other religions, right? But, hey! You tell me!
AFAIK God gave man paradise, man refused and disobeyed, man stole from man, consequently MAN let the children starve.
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It's not murder because it hasn't evolved to a "real" baby yet.
Why did you put it in quotes? Because it's obviously bullocks, scientifically speaking?
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 07, 2009 11:36 PM |
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I think Religion is mass manipulation and brainwashing.
If you are talkijng about antheistic atheism, I agree. Most other religions, no.
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But the most horrible thing I can think that a religious person can do is to "teach" his or her child to believe in X religion. That is also brainwashing.
Yes, the antitheistic atheists do serious brainwashing. I am the Christians I know, on the other hand, teach our children.
In materialistic atheist theology the univers created itself out of nothign, clearly an unscientific thing to brainwash a child with.
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What a nice God
That let's millions of people starve and die. And apparently Heaven is not for everyone either. When the "apocalypse" come only those specially elected will be saved from that cataclysm.
Actually, the starving countries are often ruled by atheists. The atheists take the food and stuff from themselves. Christian organizations try to send food in but often it gets confiscated by; the atheists ruling the country. The atheist rulers want the people to be starving and weak so they can keep them under their thumb.
God said to love and help your fellow man. Unfortunately many atheists don't agree with such an attitude.
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Moral
We do not need religion to know what is right and wrong.
Unless you are a stupid you would know that it's wrong to steal a bike or wrong to murder. These "laws" don't come from religion, they come from our own common sense and perhaps ancient Greek philosophies.
I guess the atheist tyrants like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, ect didn't know. Or actually, more likely they didn't care because nothing in atheism leads one to become a better person.
I'm not saying an atheist can't be a moral person however.
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Death
Most likely you will cease to exist when you die.
"Most likely" base on what exactly?
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There is a reason we die. It doesn't make any sense that we would suddenly be ressurected and live in some other form again.
And if you do believe in this stuff then does Heaven etc only apply to humans? Are humans special to religious people? Are other animals then humans not considered worthy to live in Heaven or live on after death?
For what reason does it not make sense?
Animals could very well be in the "after-life." My understanding is they have spirits, but they were not made in God's image. The Bible is about the redemption of man however.
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Psychology
If you had psychic problems would you:
A) Go to a Priest or something similar that follows "Gods word".
B) A skilled psychologist that has education on the subject.
To me, the answer is obvious. I would take the educated psychologist.
Studies have shown that religious people are more mentallly stable than atheists. so I'd go to a religious psychologist in the unllikely event I felt I needed psychological help.
Following the Word of God will result in a person being more mentally stabe than following atheism, in general.
Furthur, a minister has knowledge of spiritual things, whereas materialistic atheists are clueless about spiritual things. Yeah, I'd definately talke to my pastor before going to an unbeliever.
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Critism
Some people think that you shouldn't be able to aim critism at religion. Why's that?
I've not heard anyone say that. I don't really like folks to just make up lies about religion though. That is not cool.
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Isn't religion really just a political opinion?
No, religion is belief in God, the divine, supernatural, spiritual, ect. It is not a political belief like capitalism or communism.
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In the UN, critizing religion is "forbidden". In my opinion, it's just like critizing any other opinion and freedom of speech.
Actually, Jews are bashed all the time in the UN. It is just Islam you can't speak negatively about.
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Free will
Teaching your child biblical tales as the ultimate truth, circucing your son without his opinion and letting certain religious people to skip for instance sexual education are all things that agains't the individual rights of a person.
How is letting a person skip a sex ed class violating their rights? If you forced them to go, that would be violating their rights.
Teaching a child the truth is good. Why don't you just teach your child what you believe, even your prejudice against religin, if that is what you want to teach him. And I'll teach my children to love everyone and that Christ is God.
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Did the child get the choice to believe in God or was he/she influenced by his parents? Did the son choose to get circumciced when he was a baby?
Or should the child be able to get his own opinion on religion when he/she grows older? When she/he chooses confirmate.
Christianity is a personal decision. A personal encounter with God. One can't be forced to be a Christian.
Obviously a baby can't chose to be circumcised or not. He also can't chose to have his butt wiped. Do you object tot that too?
As a Christian I don't believe circumcision is necessary. But I'm all for everyone having the freedom to practice their relgion, unlike some atheists. It is a parents right and duty to teach their child what they believe to be true.
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The point was that most people that are members of the Church has been "forced" to join it.
I disagree. And like I said, no one can be forced to be a Christian.
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Actually, I filled my "Leave Church paper" today and am going to send it soon. I hope to get a fight with the church too
But the members of the church is dropping every a lot every year.
Pentecostals are growing worldwide dispite opression by atheist regeimes.
So you seek to cause a scene in church, that'll make you really somebody, eh?
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This wasn't the case for me. I got baptized agains't my will. And my parents aren't even religious.
I'm opposed to a parent forcing a chld to be baptised. There is no such thing as being able to force one to be a Christian.
But so what? You got wet.
If you claim atheist parents don't teach their children atheism, you don't know the first thing about children. Children lean by both deeds and words.
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I will defintly leave the church. I have nothing to do there (only tradition). If I marry then it would be in an atheist church.
You may sit in church in Sundays, but you are not a member of the church. You don't belong to Christ. If your parents make you go to church, oh well children have to things they often don't necessarily want to do because parents think it is best for them.
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Marriage has been made up by religion and people should be able to love each other (even if it's an one night stand) without the influence of society.
Prove Marriage was just made up by man. Your statment is a statement of faith.
I believe it is a holy instituion established by God and is between a man and a woman.
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Woman
Woman are far from equal in many religions. Look at the American society today. Many woman live as "slaves" in the house, as housewives. They don't get to work and don't get to be independant. They get to be the mans tool.
Nah, I don't know anyo women who are "slaves" in the household. I do know some "henpecked" men who are slaves in the household. At least after they get home from work. 
Oh, the Bible says men and women were both created in the image of God and are equal. They have different biological, social, and spiritual giftings though. Men cna't bear children. That does not mean men are inferiro. Men are to be the spiritual leaders. That does not make them superior to women. The prsident of the US leads the US but I certainly would not consider myslef to be inferior to him.
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The Bible says that sin comes from women or something like that.
Not exactly, It does say the woman ate of the tree first, so she sinned first. So what? What if Adam ate first, would you say that would be sexist againt men? I doubt it.
The Bible actually places the blame squarely on Adam. It says he sinned "with his eyes open," meaning he knew he was sinning. Eve had been tricked. Adam rebelled.
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Religion has shaped a society where the Man dominates the Woman.
It is interesting that the free societies of the West are from a Christian culture. Christianity brings freedom. Atheism brings oppression, as a general rule.
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Abortion
I don't see whats wrong here either.
It's the womans choice. Even though the woman and her boyfriend should discuss it it's still the woman carrying the baby and her choice. Every year more then 70,000 woman die because of illegal and insecure abortions.
Sorry, I disagree that a woman should have the right to murder her unborn baby.
It is quite clear the unborn baby is a human life. The fetus has unique human DNA and the cells are multiplying, and is the product of human conception.
Lots of criminals die every year committing various crimes. Although I think the number of women dying from back-alley abortions was exagerated.
Oh, women die from abortions in clinics too. And many suffer from post abortion stress syndrone. As do the men who had babies murdered.
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The Ultimate Conclusion
I think that that we must take our own resposibility for how we live together. We should use our common sense and not trust that anybody else does all the moral and responsible job for us, such as God.
You put your trust in man if you wish. I'll trust my God.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 08, 2009 10:12 AM |
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Elodin: you see the world in black and white, from where i'm standing.
you constantly damn anything atheist as bad, horrible, greedy, evil etc etc because you link them to these dictators...
that's a bogus link, I find. it has the same validity as "oh Mao was evil and nasty and horrible because he was chinese!" or "Oh, Polpot was a despot because he liked making films" or "oh, Stalin was evil, because he had a mustache"
You also don't think why these people targeted religion. maybe it was a threat to their ideals, or maybe it was something more personal as well. Stalin came from a strict orthodox christian family, could that explain his atheism and hate of religion?
it's a fool who simply links two things together. an intelligent man will look at why this happened.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 08, 2009 02:04 PM |
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There's a shade of grey to. As far as I know, and as I've understood it, Elodin has nothing against people of other religions, atheism not included.
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted December 08, 2009 03:42 PM |
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A quick reminder
Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. It is not a religion or a complete system of beliefs in itself, but more like a trait in one's beliefs. It's neither nice nor smart to generalise.
@Xerox: Morality doesn't come from Greek philosophy. It's been around for as long as our anchestors have been living in groups. Not stabbing all of your buddies with a pointy stick and being respectful have been generally the more favourable things to do when considering survival. Those who broke against others for too much were either cast out or the group was too dysfunctional and destroyed itself. Besides, religious beliefs as moral guidelines predate Socrates.
And now for something completely different.
A few thoughts on religious syncretism:
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I don't know, but there was some cult that told its members to imagine that they were having sex with Jesus. (If they were male, they were supposed to imagine themselves as female, to avoid homosexuality.)
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A cult that believes Barack Obama to be the messiah
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 09, 2009 06:14 AM |
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There's a shade of grey to. As far as I know, and as I've understood it, Elodin has nothing against people of other religions, atheism not included.
Actually, I have nothihng against atheists either. But when atheists start making up negative stuff about religion I like to point out the skeletons that are overflowing from the closets of atheism or challenge them to back up their statements, which seems to make the Dawkinite denomination of atheists blow their top.
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Revelation
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 09, 2009 09:44 AM |
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Edited by bixie at 09:48, 09 Dec 2009.
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Ahem
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I think Religion is mass manipulation and brainwashing.
If you are talkijng about antheistic atheism, I agree. Most other religions, no.
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But the most horrible thing I can think that a religious person can do is to "teach" his or her child to believe in X religion. That is also brainwashing.
Yes, the antitheistic atheists do serious brainwashing. I am the Christians I know, on the other hand, teach our children.
In materialistic atheist theology the univers created itself out of nothign, clearly an unscientific thing to brainwash a child with.
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What a nice God
That let's millions of people starve and die. And apparently Heaven is not for everyone either. When the "apocalypse" come only those specially elected will be saved from that cataclysm.
Actually, the starving countries are often ruled by atheists. The atheists take the food and stuff from themselves. Christian organizations try to send food in but often it gets confiscated by; the atheists ruling the country. The atheist rulers want the people to be starving and weak so they can keep them under their thumb.
God said to love and help your fellow man. Unfortunately many atheists don't agree with such an attitude.
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Moral
We do not need religion to know what is right and wrong.
Unless you are a stupid you would know that it's wrong to steal a bike or wrong to murder. These "laws" don't come from religion, they come from our own common sense and perhaps ancient Greek philosophies.
I guess the atheist tyrants like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, ect didn't know. Or actually, more likely they didn't care because nothing in atheism leads one to become a better person.
nothing against atheists, you say?
hypocrasy!
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 09, 2009 02:33 PM |
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nothing against atheists, you say?
hypocrasy!
No, I have nothing against atheists. That does not mean that when atheists start making up false things about religion that I can't point out some of the many flaws in atheism or what atheists have done. Atheism is not immune from criticism, contrary to what Dawkinites believe.
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Revelation
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 09, 2009 02:50 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 23:02, 14 Dec 2009.
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nothing against atheists, you say?
hypocrasy!
No, I have nothing against atheists. That does not mean that when atheists start making up false things about religion that I can't point out some of the many flaws in atheism or what atheists have done. Atheism is not immune from criticism, contrary to what Dawkinites believe.
neither is christianity, judaism, islam, shintoism, buddhism, hinduism, sikhism, nordism, satanism, wiccan, pagan, polytheism, the temples of zeus, athena and mars, the church of the flying spaghetti monster, the followings of the animal gods, the cult of marilyn monroe, the church of the big hole in the ground, the erectionists union for the infadility of christ, the church of the reversal of time and those who believe in it for it's the truth, the conclave of the militant preachers of the diety Uz'bath and her 6.2 children all of whom have three faces and are all called jerry, the resurrectionists forum for the worship of christ return as the holy internet meme, and scientology.
but it seems that atheists, by and large, are willing to listen to critcism in a rational way, rather than jump up and down and say that it's offending their creed.
edit: Also, the temples of the chuck norris, the worship of eluna (Yes, Wow broke the 4th wall), the Electronic church of Tesla, the mindcircle of the 4 ids and the master critic, the militant librarian-church of the knowledge of Allah who have a harsh stance on overdue books, the church of the whole plaice, the sect of the squeaky floor in the old mansion, the sect of the love god where the only way to worship is to have sex...lots and lots of sex, and the Dioses Mayas!
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted December 15, 2009 02:07 AM |
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but it seems that atheists, by and large, are willing to listen to critcism in a rational way, rather than jump up and down and say that it's offending their creed.
I, a member of the conclave of the militant preachers of the diety Uz'bath and her 6.2 children all of whom have three faces and are all called jerry take offense to this! The three books of Jerry spell out that I shouldn't tolerate any of this slandering.
Hey, elodin, why is it considered a reward to have to go through this ordeal called life again?
Also, remind me, why does someone who's never lived get to judge those who have?
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Dawkinites
This is funny AND sad! Also, you lose credibility by stating this.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 15, 2009 04:54 AM |
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Hey, elodin, why is it considered a reward to have to go through this ordeal called life again?
Also, remind me, why does someone who's never lived get to judge those who have?
I don't believe in reincarnation so you'd have to ask somebody else about that.
Actually, God has always existed as a Spirit and has also lived a human life in Jesus Christ. He exists as both God and man so he is well qualified to judge to judge man.
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This is funny AND sad! Also, you lose credibility by stating this.
A Dawkinite is a disciple of Richard Dawkins. Also called a "new athesit." He does not have to have actually met Dawkins, but he reflects the philosophy and bigotry of Dawkins against religion. Dawkinites are very religious atheists and highly evangelical. They have great faith that God does not exist and actively crusade against religion and try to oppress the rights of people to freely practice their own religion.
I was not calling all atheists Dawkinites. Most atheists are more sensible and just don't think God exists rather than having a militant hatred for religion and an evangelical fervor for atheism.
I hope you are now clear on the term "Dawkinite."
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted December 15, 2009 05:23 AM |
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I don't believe in reincarnation so you'd have to ask somebody else about that.
Actually, God has always existed as a Spirit and has also lived a human life in Jesus Christ. He exists as both God and man so he is well qualified to judge to judge man.
Doesn't it say in revelations that man comes back, if they've been good little boys and girls? Why is that a reward? You know, and all the bad little boys and girls get the reward to stay right where they are (hell, who'd want to go through al of that again?)
I doubt God has the capabilities to experience life as a man, just like we don't have the capabilities to understand pigeons and their quirks. No matter how much we simulate that experience, we'd keep our own human consciousness and be much more advanced than they are. If God was present in Jesus, then he would have experienced it with the mind and understanding of God, not with the mind of a human, so he'd not be well-equipped to judge us, since he's too far beyond us.
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A Dawkinite is a disciple of Richard Dawkins. Also called a "new athesit." He does not have to have actually met Dawkins, but he reflects the philosophy and bigotry of Dawkins against religion. Dawkinites are very religious atheists and highly evangelical. They have great faith that God does not exist and actively crusade against religion and try to oppress the rights of people to freely practice their own religion.
I was not calling all atheists Dawkinites. Most atheists are more sensible and just don't think God exists rather than having a militant hatred for religion and an evangelical fervor for atheism.
I hope you are now clear on the term "Dawkinite."
I don't feel the need to brand people. In fact, I feel indifferent to all groups of people and don't believe in bad groups of people, just bad individuals. It's not that I don't like religious people, it's that I don't like you, no offense intended. Like the people who differentiate between muslims and islamists, you are subject to no true scotsman fallacies and black-and-white thinking. Though, to rephrase Ben Croshaw: "Begrudging you for black-and-white thinking is like begrudging a midget for being short."
Tssss, a dawkinite...
You're fighting windmills.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 15, 2009 09:13 AM |
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give the man a cookie!
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 15, 2009 02:27 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:29, 15 Dec 2009.
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Doesn't it say in revelations that man comes back, if they've been good little boys and girls?
No, it does not. Reincarnation is not taught in the Bible.
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I doubt God has the capabilities to experience life as a man, just like we don't have the capabilities to understand pigeons and their quirks. No matter how much we simulate that experience, we'd keep our own human consciousness and be much more advanced than they are. If God was present in Jesus, then he would have experienced it with the mind and understanding of God, not with the mind of a human, so he'd not be well-equipped to judge us, since he's too far beyond us.
Doubt all you want. The Bible teaching is that God exists simultaneously as both the eternal Spirit who created everything and as the man Jesus Christ. God did not cease to exist as the Spirit when he began to exist as the man Jesus. Jesus is another way that God exists. He lived a completely human life in Christ and is still human (but now a glorified human.) As a man Jesus learned and grew like all humans but he chose to never sin.
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I don't feel the need to brand people. In fact, I feel indifferent to all groups of people and don't believe in bad groups of people, just bad individuals. It's not that I don't like religious people, it's that I don't like you, no offense intended. Like the people who differentiate between muslims and islamists, you are subject to no true scotsman fallacies and black-and-white thinking. Though, to rephrase Ben Croshaw: "Begrudging you for black-and-white thinking is like begrudging a midget for being short."
Tssss, a dawkinite...
You're fighting windmills.
Funny, "Dawkinite" is no more branding poeple than you saying "religious people" is branding people.
You are certainly free not to like me though you have never met me. Some people find difficulty in liking those who have opposing viewpoints. However, I don't know what inspired you to start making personal comments about me rather than merely addressing my arguments. I'm really not interested into getting into a an exchange of insults or comments about people I debate with. I'd rather stick to addressing the points of the debate.
No, I hold no "no true Scotsman fallacies." I do point out lies that some atheists like to tell about Christians/the Bible. Countering the lies with what the Bible actually teaches. Of course some atheists don't know any better, they are just mindlessly repeating the lies another atheist told them. Others knowingly say false things to attack religion.
Sorry, some things are black-and-white issues though obviously not all things are. So I have black-and-white thinking about appropriate things. For example, nothing you could ever say would make me think that raping a baby is a good thing to do. That is a black-and-white issue.
I'm not sure what you mean by me "fighting windmills." Perhaps you mean that some of the people I debate with go round and round, locked into a particular mindset and unable to break free of that mindset. I would say that although some people spin round and round in their own little world it remains possible that some day they will come to see there is more to the world than their own ideas.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted December 15, 2009 03:48 PM |
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No, it does not. Reincarnation is not taught in the Bible.
Cool, then what was all that stuff about jesus returning on his white horse and the final judgement? Christianity teaches resurrection and eternal live, after the apocalypse... pretty sure of that... No? You may call it heaven, but I was sure it was on earth or something vague like in god's kingdom. I don't value revelations that much, because death, judgementand fear are not really part of my belief system, but it's still interesting for debate. I apologise, I don't have a bible at hand to check it and I have much respect for your religion, but I'm a bit vague on this and I apologise for that. Wasn't there a reward given to the good people at the end of final judgement? like a second life? An eternal life?
What else is the point of the apocalypse, final reckoning, final judgement and all that funky stuff?
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Funny, "Dawkinite" is no more branding poeple than you saying "religious people" is branding people.
Yes it is. Religious or not is a given trait. Dawkinite is a brand. I did not attribute certain characteristic typical to certain groups of people, which you did which IS branding. There is nothing funny about your lack of understanding in this. And no, saying there are some exceptions does not excuse this, that's just your way of going around the CoC, trying to act like you're a cool guy about it, but really in your mindset, there are dawkinites and that is a problem, I believe.
And, hells yes, I have the right to not like you, just like I have the right to not like Xerox for your opinions. I don't even like you for your actions, if posting in a certain way on an internet forum can be called an action. Believe me, I like those with opposing viewpoints: I have become friends with socialists, communists, anti-religious and fascists. It is YOU I don't like for WHO you are, not for WHAT you are. I could care less what you believe and what brand you wear, I care for how you speak and act in this place, like a great belgian writer once said that style is man and you have no style. The talented mister ripley was a very likable fellow despite being a serial murderer for instance. And it is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. I did not call you stupid or wrong or a murderer. Perhaps I implied that you are stupid, but I never said that out loud.
I admit I wasn't making a point. I was just saying that dawkinite is a horrible term and that making such differentiations testifies of poor judgement and tact. You are fighting windmills. With that, I mean you go into meaningless battles with invisible, non-existant enemies ("dawkinites") that serves no purpose and only drains your energy, like my idea of Don Quichote.
You do not understand what I say, you rather attack me head-on again. The no true scotsman fallacy was implied to have a connection with the line of thinking that there is a certain way of acting and thinking inherent to a belief system and implying that this is to be expected from that belief sstem. With this line of thinking I could say all christians are murderers and conservative mouth-foaming republicans. Dangerous line of thinking. Anyway, to make sure you understand, I'll give a few examples of no true scotsman fllacies for you, because I love you: "No true christian would do that." "Typically, something a true atheist would say." "The true meanies are the dawkinites." and so on and so forth.
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Sorry, some things are black-and-white issues though obviously not all things are. So I have black-and-white thinking about appropriate things. For example, nothing you could ever say would make me think that raping a baby is a good thing to do. That is a black-and-white issue.
I don't hate you for what you are, I hate you for how you are, you see? 
Why does this always have to come back? Can't we be civilised gents once in a while? I'd love to NOT fall in repetition, because I love you in a way too, elodin. I don't want that to happen to us. Also, I dare you to ever find the above quoted phrase in ANY civilised debate.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 15, 2009 03:49 PM |
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I'm not sure what you mean by me "fighting windmills."
Read your Cervantes.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 15, 2009 08:33 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:35, 15 Dec 2009.
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No, it does not. Reincarnation is not taught in the Bible.
Cool, then what was all that stuff about jesus returning on his white horse and the final judgement? Christianity teaches resurrection and eternal live, after the apocalypse... pretty sure of that... No?
Yes, Christianity teaches that the body and spirit of a person will be reunited. That is resurrection, not reincarnation. The resurrected body will be glorified and no longer subject to corruption.
I don't consider this life to be an "ordeal" and certainly living in eternity where evil is solely confined to hell will not be an ordeal.
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Dawkinite is a brand
Dawkinite is an adjetive. Just like Christian or Muslim.
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And no, saying there are some exceptions does not excuse this, that's just your way of going around the CoC, trying to act like you're a cool guy about it, but really in your mindset, there are dawkinites and that is a problem, I believe.
There are obviously Dawkinites on this site. They bash religion quite a lot. Oh, did I say only some atheists are not Dawkinites, implying that most are? No. I said there are some Dawkinites.
I clearly stated "I was not calling all atheists Dawkinites. Most atheists are more sensible...." You have falsely charged me with trying to get around the COC. Others directly insult me all the time and have no need to fear being charged with a COC violation though it seems.
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It is YOU I don't like for WHO you are, not for WHAT you are. I could care less what you believe and what brand you wear, I care for how you speak and act in this place, like a great belgian writer once said that style is man and you have no style.
Your style seems to be slurring people you disagree with. And I could care less if you like me or not. It seems that me challenging the statements of those who make false statements about relgion get some people upset. But I won't hide in a closet and shut my mouth while bigots are shouting lies from the rooftop.
Some people love to speak strongly about subjects but think others have no right to do the same. If you make a claim be prepared to back it up and don't get upset when others call you to back up your claim.
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You do not understand what I say, you rather attack me head-on again.
I said nothing that was a personal attack against you. I addressed your statments.
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The no true scotsman fallacy was implied to have a connection with the line of thinking that there is a certain way of acting and thinking inherent to a belief system and implying that this is to be expected from that belief sstem.
It is false to say that I have said all atheists act in a particular manner. Although it is a fact that some atheists an this board have stated that there are no reasonalbe religious beliefs, that religious people are delusional, ect.
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With this line of thinking I could say all christians are murderers and conservative mouth-foaming republicans
A person who said such a thing would be lying.
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Anyway, to make sure you understand, I'll give a few examples of no true scotsman fllacies for you, because I love you: "No true christian would do that." "Typically, something a true atheist would say." "The true meanies are the dawkinites." and so on and so forth.
No, saying that no true Christian would do a certain thing is not a fallacy. The New Testament defines Christianity. The New Testament for example says no Christian hates or murders. So anyone who hates or murders and calls himself a Christian is a liar.
Oh, and I've never said the other phrases you mentioned.
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