|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
posted December 17, 2009 10:02 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Actually, the "children" were at least 19 years old according to the words used in Hebrew and how it is used in other passages. Those were not "little" children in the Elisha account, and he did not call them out of he woods, God did.
Out of curiosity I decided to check the actual Hebrew version I have at home. The first time the word is used it ("there came forth...") it is actually "Nearim ktanim" where "Nearim" means young men and "ktanim" means little and that description is subject to all kinds of interpretations. However, the second time ("and tare forty and two children of them.") the word that is used is "Yeladim" which actually means children.
Just thought you might want to know.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted December 17, 2009 10:53 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, the "children" were at least 19 years old according to the words used in Hebrew and how it is used in other passages. Those were not "little" children in the Elisha account, and he did not call them out of he woods, God did.
Out of curiosity I decided to check the actual Hebrew version I have at home. The first time the word is used it ("there came forth...") it is actually "Nearim ktanim" where "Nearim" means young men and "ktanim" means little and that description is subject to all kinds of interpretations. However, the second time ("and tare forty and two children of them.") the word that is used is "Yeladim" which actually means children.
Just thought you might want to know.
However, I showed it can be usesd of much older, mature adults.
The fact that there were 42 of them probably means it was a mob of idol worshipers who had come out against him, not 42 children playing in the woods.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2183
Quote:
It is the general view of conservative Bible scholars that the young men of Bethel likely were idolaters whose reproaches upon Elisha were expressions of contempt for his prophetic office, and thus, ultimately directed at the God Whom he served. Thus, their punishment was a divine judgment intended to serve as a dramatic example in horribly wicked times.
Clidren is yeled in the verse. Yeled is not limited to a child.
Clicky
children h3206 éěă yeled
1) child, son, boy, offspring, youth
a) child, son, boy
b) child, children
c) descendants
d) youth
e) apostate Israelites (fig.)
The "children" were most likely young idol worshipers who had come against the prophet as a mob.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted December 17, 2009 10:59 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 23:00, 17 Dec 2009.
|
Quote:
However, I showed it can be usesd [sic] of much older, mature adults.
Quote:
The fact that there were 42 of them probably means it was
Quote:
It is the general view of conservative Bible scholars that the young men
Quote:
Clidren is yeled in the verse. Yeled is not limited to a child.
Quote:
The "children" were most likely young idol worshipers who
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.... are you saying that the Bible's language might be open to interpretation? *GASP*
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
|
|
posted December 17, 2009 11:01 PM |
|
Edited by Adrius at 23:03, 17 Dec 2009.
|
Quote:
Atheism on the other hand, as explained before, is the absence of belief in deities.
There is no such thing as an absense of belief. Atheists believe that God does not exist. They do so without any proof that God deos not exist. Such a belief is faith. Atheism is a religion.
He said abscence of belief in deites, not complete abscence of all belief.
Or am I missing the point? 
____________
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted December 17, 2009 11:25 PM |
|
|
Quote:
There is no difference between ancient people who believed earth is flat and those believing in GodS.
Well that's what people back then used to say too. In fact some people still think it's flat. And I'm talking about people who at least heard of physics of course.
Most likely you're going to fall into the "people back then" category after a few centuries too.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
|
|
posted December 17, 2009 11:29 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Please note that I never said an atheist cannot be moral.
Actually, some atheists on this board said what I said. They believe there is no abosolute right or wrong. That morality is relative to whaever society decides morality is.
That is the traditional materialistic atheist stance.
Lots of rather far out sounding stuff comes up in here, but I'm pretty sure that none of the people here are pro-rape at their current state.
Quote:
To say morality is absolute would be to acknowledge the existecne of God for what other source of absolute morality could there be?
It wouldn't be a very far fetched idea that morals in society would be getting closer and closer to absolute morals of right and wrong through generations of rational thinking. Also in Immanuel Kant's moral philosophy the "categorical imperative," is a central piece. The categorical imperative abridgingly put is to only perform acts wich you could will as an universal law. I.E. It wouldn't be very smart to have lying as an universal law.
Quote:
There is no such thing as an absense of belief. Atheists believe that God does not exist.
That is why I said absence of belief in deities, instead of simply absence of belief. They do not believe that a god or deity exists, in other words one can say that the belief in the existence of a god or deity is not a part of their set of beliefs and therefore is absent.
____________
Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
posted December 17, 2009 11:31 PM |
|
|
sigh...
i could follow you into a quote war elodin, but i have neither the time nor the will right now. you are free to assume you would have won such a contest if it makes you feel better
HOWEVER
i am dumbfounded by the fact you claim the moral high ground and still find it completely acceptable for your deity to maul 42 people (children, young adults, old men, convicted criminals, doesn't really matter) by proxy for calling someone names
if that is the kind of absolute morality you preach, then i am very thankful i live in a place you don't make the laws
on the subject of atheism. speaking for myself and those atheists i know, we'd believe there was a god (any god) at the first sign of unshakable evidence. scientific facts are handy that way
whether or not we'd believe such a deity was worth worshiping on the other hand, is an entirely different matter
and a reminder: the only difference between a christian and an atheist is that the atheist doesn't believe in one god more
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted December 17, 2009 11:53 PM |
|
|
Quote:
on the subject of atheism. speaking for myself and those atheists i know, we'd believe there was a god (any god) at the first sign of unshakable evidence. scientific facts are handy that way
such as? Most people are impossible to convince that even UFOs exist, now imagine something extra-material like God.
Fake, Photoshopped, "something else" (e.g: in alien case some secret government project, or in God case, aliens who play games with us) 
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 12:12 AM |
|
|
Maybe I got the wrong impression, but aren't UFO's not merely unidentified flying objects? I mean if I claimed to not believing in UFO's, or to say that I believed all flying objects were identified, i.e. me knowing them, I think I'd be very wrong.
Just throw a luminating frisbee in the night and I have no idea what that is. 
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 12:34 AM |
|
|
Quote:
i am dumbfounded by the fact you claim the moral high ground and still find it completely acceptable for your deity to maul 42 people (children, young adults, old men, convicted criminals, doesn't really matter) by proxy for calling someone names
like I said, every person in Israel had to repeat the blessings and curses. They all vowed to follow the Law. If they chose to blasphem they knew the penalty that carried. And 42 people coming against the prophet probably meant they intended him harm. Instead of God allowing his prophet to come to harm he slew the idol worshipers.
Quote:
on the subject of atheism. speaking for myself and those atheists i know, we'd believe there was a god (any god) at the first sign of unshakable evidence. scientific facts are handy that way
The laws of thermodynamics make it clear the universe is not eternal and could not produce itself. There had to be a self-existant eternal cause. God.
Until you can explain how matter and energy came from absolute nothing withoug a cause your belief that there is no God is illogical given known science.
Quote:
Lots of rather far out sounding stuff comes up in here, but I'm pretty sure that none of the people here are pro-rape at their current state.
Oh, I wouldn't say "pro-rape" but it has been said by an atheist on the boards that rape is not intrinsically wrong. A materialistic atheist really can't claim that right and wrong exist and be consistant with atheism. If man is only an "accident" no one has a right to claim anything is wrong because that is then just your opinion that it is wrong.
I assume you believe that rape is wrong. Why is rape wrong? What makes your belief that rape is wrong correct and someone else's view that rape is ok incorrect?
Quote:
It wouldn't be a very far fetched idea that morals in society would be getting closer and closer to absolute morals of right and wrong through generations of rational thinking.
Really? I don't see mankind thinking itself into paradise. And what do you mean absolute morals? How is your opoinion about what is moral superior to anyone elses? Why would you think that you are the standard for absolute morality?
Quote:
Also in Immanuel Kant's moral philosophy the "categorical imperative," is a central piece. The categorical imperative abridgingly put is to only perform acts wich you could will as an universal law. I.E. It wouldn't be very smart to have lying as an universal law.
Ok, nice. But what makes his philosophy the standard of morality? And would you really pass a law that made lying illegal?
The concept of Biblical moralit is that no only should you refrain from doing something that would hurt another person but that you should actively seek to help the person. The "love your neighbor" approach.
In the Christian woldview each person has intrinsic value because God created mankind in his image. The statement has been made on thir board that man has no intrinsic worth sinmply from being human.
Quote:
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.... are you saying that the Bible's language might be open to interpretation? *GASP*
Important things that we need to know are really quite clear. It is obvious that however old the people in question were they were old enough to be accountable for there actions. Whether or not they worshipped idols (as is probable) is really immaterial.
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 01:28 AM |
|
|
...wow
just wow...
i won't even bother with the moral aspects of your post. i will only say i am happy you are not near any children i care about or can actually protect
regarding the laws of thermodynamics however, more specifically the second one that is often used in defense of the concept of a creator... you sir, fail at science.
while on the surface it may look that the 2nd law means there would be no life on earth without your skyfather watching over us, you ignore one tiny little detail... or in this case, a huge ball of fire that keeps feeding us with energy
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 01:29 AM |
|
|
Elodin, there's no such thing as intrinsic value. Things only have value because someone values them.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 02:03 AM |
|
Edited by Wolfman at 02:06, 18 Dec 2009.
|
@ Elodin
Quote:
Quote:
first of all, learn how to read what i post, not what you want me to post... you raise so many strawmen i have to believe you are a farmer (unless they are windmills, in which case you're a crazy old knight)
In other words you made some utterly false claims that you can't back up.
I’m not sure where you get that meaning out of what he said. Unless you don’t understand what the term “strawman” refers to. I’m guessing that is the case because you are raising a lot of strawman arguments. Every time you say “materialistic atheism”, for instance, I cringe because it makes no sense. Atheism is a very simple concept so I’m baffled as to how you don’t understand. Theism is the belief in a god, gods, deity of any sort. And so it follows that atheism is the absence of belief in a god, gods, deity of any sort. Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as an absence of belief. You believe that God created the world in 6 days (probably 6,000 years ago but I have not seen you say that anywhere. I can only assume from your attitude toward Christianity that this could be the case. It is an educated guess, so don’t jump down my throat over it.) I do not share this belief, hence I have an absence of belief that God created the world in 6 days roughly 6,000 years ago. It does not mean I am angry over it and hold a strong belief that God didn’t, at least not without evidence that is. (Uh-oh, I used the word evidence. Cue the “that’s why it’s called faith” argument. Since no evidence supports the Bible and all of it seems to point to there is no God, not the god of Christianity as described in the Bible, at least, holding an atheist point of view is not evil nor does it require faith. As such, atheism is not a religion as you have said.
Quote:
The anti-Christian crowd unfortunately seems incapable of civilized debate and seems to always resort to insults.
This seems to be your own invention. I have been following this for about a week and there is a lot of good stuff here but the only thing I see here is frustration from the “anti-Christian crowd” and rightfully so. You don’t seem to be reading their points here sometimes or other times arguing a different point that the one raised. Frustration at this should not be a surprise.
About the rape punishment, I know I read somewhere toward the beginning of the OT (may have been Deuteronomy) that the punishment for rape was indeed to marry the girl that was raped. I know I read that and I remembered it because it is absolutely appalling. If you read what you say in one version, and I read this in another…could it be that someone messed up the translations somewhere nullifying your point?
Quote:
To say morality is absolute would be to acknowledge the existecne of God for what other source of absolute morality could there be?
Personally, I find this very offensive. The idea that God has anything to do with morality of any sort, or that “God” and “morality” should be used in the same sentence is disgusting. Either you didn’t read it at all or your reading comprehension is a little off. (Note: that is not an insult and should not be taken as such.) Since I went through and started reading the whole thing the only explanation I have is that how most Christians “read” the Bible is to get a verse or two here or there from a preacher or somewhere similar and never get them all together. The story, when put all together is terrible. If God is real as the Bible describes him, and as Christians no doubt believe he does, God is evil. He does the most terrible things imaginable and we (believers) are supposed to love him. It’s like having a dead beat dad that abuses you all the time but then one day he buys you an ice cream so you’re supposed to love him forever. It simply doesn’t make sense.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, the "children" were at least 19 years old according to the words used in Hebrew and how it is used in other passages. Those were not "little" children in the Elisha account, and he did not call them out of he woods, God did.
Out of curiosity I decided to check the actual Hebrew version I have at home. The first time the word is used it ("there came forth...") it is actually "Nearim ktanim" where "Nearim" means young men and "ktanim" means little and that description is subject to all kinds of interpretations. However, the second time ("and tare forty and two children of them.") the word that is used is "Yeladim" which actually means children.
Just thought you might want to know.
However, I showed it can be usesd of much older, mature adults.
I’m confused. So since you can show through loose interpretation that it means older people then that’s what it means? This is a very poor way of forming an argument.
____________
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 05:06 AM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 05:20, 18 Dec 2009.
|
Quote:
just wow...
i won't even bother with the moral aspects of your post. i will only say i am happy you are not near any children i care about or can actually protect
It is interesting that all you have is insults after making such lavish claims. Most unfortunate.
If you claim I would ever harm a child or endorce harming a child you are a liar of the most perverse kind.
Quote:
regarding the laws of thermodynamics however, more specifically the second one that is often used in defense of the concept of a creator... you sir, fail at science.
Again, you have nothing. It is you who fail. You did not even make an attempt to address the issues.
Expain how entropy does not indicate that the universe can't be eternal.
Explain how matter and energy came into being from absolute nothing without a cause. And please, if you say a singularity kicked everything off, what caused the singularity?
Quote:
while on the surface it may look that the 2nd law means there would be no life on earth without your skyfather watching over us, you ignore one tiny little detail... or in this case, a huge ball of fire that keeps feeding us with energy
I don't see how the laws of thermodynamics relate to the habitability of earth at all. They do relate to how that ball of fire and the third rock from the sun came to be in the first place. I recommend that you review the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
I'm not somenoe who limits life to only earth. I've stated my belief that there is most likely life on other planets.
Quote:
Elodin, there's no such thing as intrinsic value. Things only have value because someone values them.
We have a differnce in world views my friend. I say human life has intrinsic value.
Quote:
I’m not sure where you get that meaning out of what he said. Unless you don’t understand what the term “strawman” refers to. I’m guessing that is the case because you are raising a lot of strawman arguments.
What I mean is the individual made lots of claims thet he did not even attamept to back up when challenged.
Quote:
Every time you say “materialistic atheism”, for instance, I cringe because it makes no sense.
Perhaps you are unaware that not all atheits are materialists (though most are.) Most atheists say taht nothing exists but the material world. But there are for example some Buddhits who say that the human spirit survives death and who believe in reincarnation, karma, and the possibility of a human to become an "ascended master."
A materialistic atheistic believes that basicly what you see is all ther is. There is no God, no aferlife, no spirits.
Quote:
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as an absence of belief. You believe that God created the world in 6 days (probably 6,000 years ago but I have not seen you say that anywhere.
No, there is no "absense of belief." You either believe that God exists or you believe he does not exist.
No, I don't believe in a 24-hour 6 day creation event. I have stated why in several threads that the "days" of createion or in fact epoch periods. In fact, the 7th day of creaition did not end in Genesis. We are, still in that "day of rest", the "day of salvation." The next "Day" is the "day of judgement." The book of Heberws uses this concept to say that if we are to be saved we must respond to the Spirit of God while it is still "To day."
Nowhere does the Bble give a time frame of when the earth was created.
Quote:
It does not mean I am angry over it and hold a strong belief that God didn’t, at least not without evidence that is. (Uh-oh, I used the word evidence.
Many atheists usually do not present evidence. They present their own statements of faith and get angry when those statments are challenged. I have been presenting evidence for my claims. The anti-Christians have been unable to support their claims about what the Bible says.
If it is your claim that that Bible sets a 6000 year ago creation event support your claim with quotes from the Bible. I don't believe in such a time frame but I am interested as to how you will support that claim.
Quote:
Since no evidence supports the Bible and all of it seems to point to there is no God, not the god of Christianity as described in the Bible, at least, holding an atheist point of view is not evil nor does it require faith. As such, atheism is not a religion as you have said.
That is false. Science lends more support to theism than to atheism.
Oh, show some of that "all of it seems to point to there is no God." Refer to some of that evidence please.
Do you believve the universe is eternal, even though entropy would indicate it is not? Also, observations indicate that the universe had a definate beginning, just as the Bible teaches.
How do you claim matter and energy came to be? What was the first cause?
Materialistic atheism has to claim that the universe is either eternal or that it produced itself. Which idea do you subscribe to?
Never have I said that atheists are evil.
Oh yes, atheism is a religion. There is no evidence that God does not exist. To say "There is no God" is then a statement of faith. There are many atheists who quite an evangelical fervor.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The anti-Christian crowd unfortunately seems incapable of civilized debate and seems to always resort to insults.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This seems to be your own invention.
Should I quote some of the insults? Certain people have seemingly been given a free pass to insult me at will because the Code of Conduct does not seem to be applied to them when they do so.
Quote:
About the rape punishment, I know I read somewhere toward the beginning of the OT (may have been Deuteronomy) that the punishment for rape was indeed to marry the girl that was raped.
If you are going to make a claim that the Bible says such a thing back it up with quotes. Cite chapter and verse for easy refernce plaease.
The Old Covenatnt had the death penalty for rape and for adultury (consensual sex between two people when one of them is married.)
It should be noted that the penalty was only for Jews living in the nation of Israel. The Jews did not go around the world hunting for adulturers to stone. Stoning was a punishment for the Jew who broke his Covenant with God in that manner.
Stoning is not and never has been part of the New Covenant. Christianity is not, never has been, and never will be under the Old Covenant.
Christianity was born on the day of Penecost. The New Covenant went into effect on that day when Jesus began to pour out his Spirit on his people. That was 40 days after his resurrection.
Quote:
Quote:
To say morality is absolute would be to acknowledge the existecne of God for what other source of absolute morality could there be?
Personally, I find this very offensive.
I hardly see how saying that absolute morality implies God is offensive. Some atheist have said on this board that thera are no absolute morals.
Get offended when people disagree with you if you wish.
However, perhaps you can tell me what the basis of absolue morality is.
Quote:
The idea that God has anything to do with morality of any sort, or that “God” and “morality” should be used in the same sentence is disgusting.
That seems to reflect a bigotted attitude.
Quote:
Since I went through and started reading the whole thing the only explanation I have is that how most Christians “read” the Bible is to get a verse or two here or there from a preacher or somewhere similar and never get them all together.
Funny, I would say that is how most atheists "read" the Bible. Verses are lifted out of context and twisted in meaning in order to try to make the Bible say something it does not say.
I constantly address the "context" issue. I have studied the Bible for many years.
Quote:
If God is real as the Bible describes him, and as Christians no doubt believe he does, God is evil. He does the most terrible things imaginable and we (believers) are supposed to love him. It’s like having a dead beat dad that abuses you all the time but then one day he buys you an ice cream so you’re supposed to love him forever. It simply doesn’t make sense.
You are making false and unsupported claims. From your last post I'm pretty clear of which side of the anti-Christian fence you seem to be on.
I dispute that God is evil. You have presented no evidence. I would say what is evil is to lie about God and to lie about what the Bible says.
Quote:
I’m confused. So since you can show through loose interpretation that it means older people then that’s what it means? This is a very poor way of forming an argument.
I've been citing sources that back up what I say. Many atheists love to make false claims about the Bible even though their claims about what the Bible says can't be supported. It is truly ssad that those sorts of athesits are not at all interested in teh truth.
I have respect for atheists who honestly deal with the facts. But for atheists who just lie about the Bble I have none.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 11:21 AM |
|
|
Quote:
There is no such thing as an absense of belief. Atheists believe that God does not exist. They do so without any proof that God deos not exist. Such a belief is faith. Atheism is a religion.
Everytime I read things like that I can only shake my head. It seems UNACCEPTABLE for Christians that people can live without any kind of Gid/belief/faith/etc...
Get real...
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 11:29 AM |
|
Edited by Shares at 11:44, 18 Dec 2009.
|
That is just a matter of perception.
To believe god doesn't exist.
To not belive god does exist.
See? It is a futile matter of sicussion, since it is the same thing and doesn't matter.
And could every body stop tossing insults and saying: "That's not true, because it isn't true!".
This discussion have some potentially good points of discussion, but they are hard to see behind the stupid ones.
EDIT:
If I've got it right, Elodin states that since things, energies and matter, exists there must've been a higher being, god, that created it. Or at least started the reaction(s) that created the universe.
So the argument you ask for is an arguement that will explain another way of creating the universe. We seem to agree that it was the big bang, or something similiar. You state that god created the eneries in the big bang or started the reaction. Correct?
Opposers said: "Second law of thermodynamics!" and then silence?! That is flawless discussing, right?
Could you then please state the second law of thermodynamics? Since there's plenty of interpertations of the laws, and sometimes the laws are in a different order.
I feel that this is one of the discussions that could lead somewhere.
Also: Is there an ultimate morality without a god? Is there an ultimate morality?
If you would just calm down, stop thinking of each others as stupid ****heads, this could lead somewhere.
____________
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 12:11 PM |
|
|
just to clarify...
Quote:
The four principles of thermodynamics (referred to as "laws"):
0. The zeroth law of thermodynamics, which underlies the definition of temperature.
1. The first law of thermodynamics, which mandates conservation of energy, and states in particular that heat is a form of energy.
2. The second law of thermodynamics, which states that the entropy of an isolated macroscopic system never decreases, or (equivalently) that perpetual motion machines are impossible.
3. The third law of thermodynamics, which concerns the entropy of a perfect crystal at absolute zero temperature, and implies that it is impossible to cool a system all the way to exactly absolute zero.
the second law has often been used by christian apologetics in defense of their idea that God is responsible for us (and the universe) being around
and it does seem solid at first glance. after all, entropy is supposed to increase with time, yet here we are on our little blue ball, beating each other with sticks
what they fail to address is that the second law only applies to -isolated- systems
Quote:
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
what was that? loving father? merciful god? ...and lets not even go into what God ordered them to do to the Midianites, yes? i've watched slasher films that made me cringe less
EDIT: Christians say X gods do not exist, Atheists say X+1 gods do not exist... seriously guys, we're not that different
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 04:43 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Really? I don't see mankind thinking itself into paradise. And what do you mean absolute morals? How is your opoinion about what is moral superior to anyone elses? Why would you think that you are the standard for absolute morality?
With absolute morals I mean a definite right and wrong that is applicable for all situations. I never said anything about myself, I said society through the generations. A collective effort in wich the standard of morals is refined and polished. With every correction and addition made, someone might believe that they are getting closer to the absolute truth of what's good and what's bad. A bit like how some people believe that with every correction and addition science approaches the truth about the cosmos.
Quote:
Ok, nice. But what makes his philosophy the standard of morality? And would you really pass a law that made lying illegal?
Well it's a moral theory among others, it's mostly just like taking a pick between a banana and a bunch of grapes. It's not necessarily about passing an actual law against lying, but lying would be defined as a morally wrong thing to do.
I wouldn't pass a law against lying, neither am I necessarily talking about my own beliefs.
Quote:
The concept of Biblical moralit is that no only should you refrain from doing something that would hurt another person but that you should actively seek to help the person. The "love your neighbor" approach.
In the Christian woldview each person has intrinsic value because God created mankind in his image. The statement has been made on thir board that man has no intrinsic worth sinmply from being human.
That's cool.
On another note about somethings about so called "anti-christian" and "anti-theist" atheists. I'd say that in these discussions there have been some very critical miscommunications. I interpret the problem they see with alot of religion is how it's in the nature of most religions to not criticise it's teachings and how in alot of past cases when somebody has criticised the teachings or presented something that contradicts the worldview, they have been convicted as heretics. They see the "absolute answers for every situation" approach some have as counter-progressive. That's propably why alot of them fancy themselves "freethinkers," free of shackles set by an unchanging or "absolute" standard.
Not all these people that you might see as "anti-christian" and "anti-theist" bigots are necessarily against all that religion stands for, but rather the aspect of some dogma sometimes being somehow restrictive of advance or oppresive of some minorities (I.E. homosexuals) and people of different faith. They're against people bashing young men and women in the head with a bible, thinking that they are exorcising a homosexual demon possessing the poor soul and those who would run about waving signs saying: "God hates fags."
"Anti-christian" and "anti-theist" are very much just another windmill. Of course, some people do like to oppose religion, just out of being spiteful, but I hope that we all would understand eachother and eachother's views better.
____________
Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 05:40 PM |
|
|
Quote:
what was that? loving father? merciful god? ...and lets not even go into what God ordered them to do to the Midianites, yes? i've watched slasher films that made me cringe less
Ah yes, the anti-theist atheists love to take a poorly translated verse and try to say the Bible teaches what it does not. Those sorts have no interest in truth at all. I had already dealt with the verse you brought up a day or two ago, so I'll copy and paste my answer here since you obviously did not read it the first time. Rather thatn just looking
Quote:
The penalty for rape in the Old Testament was death to the rapist. Nothing was done to the innocent victim for they have not broken the law.
It is quite obvious that the passage in question is not talking about a rapist marrying his victim. Let read the passage in context, shall we?
First, a few verses above, it say rapists shall be put to death and the victims are innocent and shall not be punished. It is obvious that anyone who says the passage refers to a rapist marrying his victim has never read the passage.
Deut. 22 (ASV)
Death penalty for adultury
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 If there be a damsel that is a virgin betrothed unto a husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them to death with stones; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Death Penalty for rape
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25 But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 but unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter;
27 for he found her in the field, the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If both parties are unmarried and they have consensual sex, they shall marry. The man will pay a dowry to the father.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.
More people might have some respect for atheists if the anti-Christian type had any interest in actual truth.
Quote:
and lets not even go into what God ordered them to do to the Midianites, yes? i've watched slasher films that made me cringe less
JJ already brought up what you discovered on an anti-Christina website before and I answered it to. Really, anti-Chrstians need to come up with some new material.
Quote:
what they fail to address is that the second law only applies to -isolated- systems
If one considers the term "universe" to include all matter and energy that exists the universe is a closed system. Explain where matter and energy came from.
Quote:
On another note about somethings about so called "anti-christian" and "anti-theist" atheists. I'd say that in these discussions there have been some very critical miscommunications. The problem they see with alot of religion is how it's in the nature of most religions to not criticise it's teachings and how in alot of past cases when somebody has criticised the teachings or presented something that contradicts the worldview, they have been convicted as heretics. They see the "absolute answers for every situation" approach some have as counter-progressive. That's propably why alot of them fancy themselves "freethinkers," free of shackles set by an unchanging or "absolute" standard.
I don't think that is it all. It is the "new atheist" brand of atheism. The Dawkinite. They agressively attack religion, even with deliberate lies.
And of course, if one wants to discuss abuses by belief systems, atheists have committed the largest mass murders in recorded history. Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, ect, most of which occured fairly recently. Far, far more than all other religions combined for all of recorded history.
The New Testament does not authroize any Christian to punish any sinner for their sin. The New Testament does not authorize "heretic hunting." Christ warned of wolves in sheep's clothing. Anyone who hates or murders is not a Christian according to the Bible.
Quote:
Not all these people that you might see as "anti-christian" and "anti-theist" bigots are necessarily against all that religion stands for, but rather the aspect of some dogma sometimes being somehow restrictive of advance or oppresive of some minorities (I.E. homosexuals) and people of different faith. They're against people bashing young men and women in the head with a bible, thinking that they are exorcising a homosexual demon possessing the poor soul and those who would run about waving signs saying: "God hates fags."
Oh, when they make up lies and false statments about Christinaity or the Bible, yse, it is easy to see who falls into the anti-Christian camp.
Sorry, Christianity does not try tp prevent advancement of minorities. If you are talking about gay "marriage", "marriage" in the US has a specific historical and traditional meaning in addition to the relgious meaning. One man and one woman.
I am not opposed to civil unions or a ceremony called something other than marriage for homosexuals that has the same exact rights as marriage.
Oh, Chrstians are not opposed to people of different faiths. Many atheists seem to be and constantly try to oppress the ability of others to practice their religion. Christian groups often fight for the rights of other religions to practice their faith. I would point you to, for example, the American Center for Law and Justice. While it is a Chritian group, I know they have helped Jews and Muslims fight for their rights to practice their religion. I'm talking free leagal services even taking cases all the way up to the Supreme Court.
I don't see atheist groups fighting for the rights of others to practice their religion. I see them trying to oppress religious expression. Groups like "Freedom from Religion" (Dawkins is a member of that group.)
Christians don't say "God hates fags" Anyone who does so is not a Christain according to the Bible. On the other hand, some atheists have said in this very thread that they hate Christians. Those people like to make up lies about Christianity and say God/Christianity is evil, but the evil is in the lies told to smear Christianity and in their hate.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Oh, and demons are not cast out by hitting anyone in the head with a Bible. I'm sure you can come up with some loony video on you tube where someone clams to be doing it, but that does not match how demons were cast out by Jesus or the disciples.
Quote:
There is no such thing as an absense of belief. Atheists believe that God does not exist. They do so without any proof that God deos not exist. Such a belief is faith. Atheism is a religion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everytime I read things like that I can only shake my head. It seems UNACCEPTABLE for Christians that people can live without any kind of Gid/belief/faith/etc...
No, you have a right not to believe in God. But don't kid yourself that you don't have faith. There is no proof that God does not exist so the belief of an atheist that he does not exist is faith.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted December 18, 2009 05:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
And of course, if one wants to discuss abuses by belief systems, atheists have committed the largest mass murders in recorded history. Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, ect, most of which occured fairly recently. Far, far more than all other religions combined for all of recorded history.
The New Testament does not authroize any Christian to punish any sinner for their sin. The New Testament does not authorize "heretic hunting." Christ warned of wolves in sheep's clothing. Anyone who hates or murders is not a Christian according to the Bible.
Here we go again. Dude why are you constantly repeating this when you know it's going to go into an endless cycle? I'm not saying you are all wrong -- I understand what you mean (see below), but formulate it differently and more consistent.
Here's my last take on this issue to save the thread.
In your first paragraph, you accuse atheism of having some "mass murderers" under its category. Notice of course, I did not say that you accuse atheists of being mass murderers, but atheism, so don't bash me saying "I didn't say atheists are mass murderers" as you ALWAYS repeat.
Right. Now it's obvious why this is a pretty wrong approach: atheism is not based on a collection or book, it's "people who don't believe in any deities". Replace that everytime you use it to make it clearer.
In other words, you accuse the disbelief in deities of having mass murderers, but that's as inconsistent as saying that you accuse the name 'Ted' for having a murderer like Ted Bundy under it. Is the name Ted responsible for it? 
Now onto the second paragraph. This is where you are partially right. People bashed the Bible and then used the loose definition of Christian. But they are wrong if they do so, or at least, their bashing arguments are nullified.
You can't bash something then use up a definition that does not go well with the argument -- or the Bible bashing in this case. If you want to bash the Bible, then use the Bible definition of Christian for your arguments (which you can't).
Analogy (example, not necessarily true):
Microsoft say they comply with web standards. But then the expected behavior in Internet Explorer of some webpages is incorrect. So can you use this as an argument against the web standards? Of course not, who cares what Microsoft say (i.e who cares about other definitions of Christianity), if you want to bash the standards, you're going to have to use arguments against the standards -- that is, use their specification, not Microsoft's, and find faults in it.
Similar here, use the Bible's definition of Christian if you want to bash the Bible.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
