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| Thread: If we tried to reach something real and equal or greater than us... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
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posted December 31, 2009 02:32 AM |
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I'm assuming it would be the computer's target to expand its dominion, thus eliminating inferior parasites (us), becomes logical.
Yeah, that's case number 1: their target is tyranny. 
And yes in such a case your assumption is correct.
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Not to sound like an anti-technology type of guy, but IMO, when you start building things that are intellectually superior to you, you're just asking to get screwed.
Sometimes the outcome is not so bad, if you were one (snow) yourself.  (in general this means humanity)
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blizzardboy
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posted December 31, 2009 02:39 AM |
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Digitally transferring ourselves into electronics? Who knows at that point. Would "you" even still be "you"? Or would it be a perfect representation of you, that doesn't even realize that it isn't you?
Anyway, the discussion is getting pretty nebulous.
edit: maybe if 'computers' were artificial biological creations (something along the lines of the Overmind from Starcraft) it would be more plausible.
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mvassilev
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posted December 31, 2009 02:46 AM |
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That's an easy question to answer. You are whoever you think you are, which means there's a hierarchy. Suppose you're teleported somewhere. That means your body would be destroyed at the point of origin and created at the destination. So, did you die? I would say no - the you at the end is the same you as you in the beginning. Now suppose that the original body isn't destroyed. Then which one is the real you? Obviously, the one at the origin.
So, in this case, if you're just in the computer, then it's you. If there's one of you in the computer and one outside, the one outside (provided it's the original you) is you.
A more interesting question is this. Go back to the teleporter scenario. Now, suppose your original body is destroyed, but instead of one new body being created, two are. Then which one is you?
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TheDeath
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posted December 31, 2009 02:47 AM |
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Nah, who cares if you are 'you' or not, I mean, unless you are very selfish-driven. For example, 'you' are not 'you' when you sacrifice yourself to save your kid, so imagine that and apply that in this situation.
See, I can make "problems" seem ok
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blizzardboy
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posted December 31, 2009 02:50 AM |
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That's an easy question to answer. You are whoever you think you are, which means there's a hierarchy. Suppose you're teleported somewhere. That means your body would be destroyed at the point of origin and created at the destination. So, did you die? I would say no - the you at the end is the same you as you in the beginning. Now suppose that the original body isn't destroyed. Then which one is the real you? Obviously, the one at the origin.
So, in this case, if you're just in the computer, then it's you. If there's one of you in the computer and one outside, the one outside (provided it's the original you) is you.
A more interesting question is this. Go back to the teleporter scenario. Now, suppose your original body is destroyed, but instead of one new body being created, two are. Then which one is you?
Umm, no, it is not an easy question to answer. We don't have a clue, and more than likely the answer is 'No'.
If I take a piano and smash it up, and then build a replica down to the last grain, it is not the same piano.
Twins have identical DNA, and yet there are two separate conscious-es. If they somehow grew up with the same experiences, they would essentially be replicas, and yet there would still be a conscious piloting each person.
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mvassilev
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posted December 31, 2009 02:50 AM |
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who cares if you are 'you' or not
While an easy and good answer, it feels like a cop-out.
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For example, 'you' are not 'you' when you sacrifice yourself to save your kid, so imagine that and apply that in this situation.
But I don't want kids, so it doesn't help me with this situation.
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DagothGares
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posted December 31, 2009 02:55 AM |
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who cares if you are 'you' or not
I do.
I mean, the original consciousness still dies, right?
Sure, there'll be a new one, but I won't really care for that. It's not like my child, because I didn't raise it, so I have no reason to care for it.
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TheDeath
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posted December 31, 2009 03:01 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 03:04, 31 Dec 2009.
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But I don't want kids, so it doesn't help me with this situation.
Ok so first the problem has to be addressed with people who would sacrifice for their kids, and after that shift the problem to this (which is more 'difficult'). I'm not saying I have kids or want kids, but selfishness is a stubborn illusion -- selfishness not in the sense that you don't care about others, but in the sense that you only care about yourself with no regard at all to the others (others does include 'cyborgs' here also). The former selfishness ignores others but does not harm them for its benefit, the latter does.
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Sure, there'll be a new one, but I won't really care for that. It's not like my child, because I didn't raise it, so I have no reason to care for it.
Selfishness again, where the value of your child is more important than another child (which you did not 'raise').
I mean it's normal to feel that way, but when you start to think about it, it makes no sense. After all... it is kind of a "world-wide" phenomenon we're speaking here (AI revolution) not just a ignorant local one, so statistics and reason reign, not feelings.
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DagothGares
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posted December 31, 2009 03:09 AM |
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What is my reason for dying that's so profoundly logical?
There's nothing logical about letting yourself be eaten by other life forms. You won't gain anything.
And I'm saying the analogy with the child falls completely flat, because I don't love or care for the child in any possible way, other than perhaps we're both human. So what? Elodin's also human, I don't care for him.
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mvassilev
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posted December 31, 2009 03:24 AM |
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Dagoth:
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I mean, the original consciousness still dies, right?
But you don't notice, so I don't think it matters.
Death:
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I'm not saying I have kids or want kids, but selfishness is a stubborn illusion -- selfishness not in the sense that you don't care about others, but in the sense that you only care about yourself with no regard at all to the others (others does include 'cyborgs' here also).
Sorry, that helps even less. Relating it to a kid is difficult because while a kid is, theoretically, someone you care about, it's not you - while this "tele-clone" is (or thinks he is) you.
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DagothGares
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posted December 31, 2009 03:33 AM |
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But you don't notice, so I don't think it matters.
Yeah, I guess, I won't notice death...
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blizzardboy
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posted December 31, 2009 03:39 AM |
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I know how Mvass is going to die.
Actually if we ever manage teleportation, by then we can probably just as easily send a synthetic surrogate through and then get online with it.
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TheDeath
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posted December 31, 2009 03:46 AM |
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What is my reason for dying that's so profoundly logical?
There's nothing logical about letting yourself be eaten by other life forms. You won't gain anything.
What is "gain"? Is living in an illusion but with pleasant experiences "gain"? (i.e the matrix)
And I don't know why it is logical for you to survive and not a more efficient (at whatever) cyborg. Because you know, logic applies to both you and the cyborg, you can't say that logic disagrees with each other (you think you are important, he thinks he is important), because then it wouldn't be logic anymore!
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And I'm saying the analogy with the child falls completely flat, because I don't love or care for the child in any possible way, other than perhaps we're both human. So what? Elodin's also human, I don't care for him.
See man? The reason for your fears? It's because YOU FEAR YOURSELF. You fear that the cyborgs/whatever will do like you, caring only about themselves (like you do), not about the "child" (or you), but in the end, you only fear yourself!
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DagothGares
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posted December 31, 2009 03:56 AM |
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What is gain?
Realising what you want(like dreams or something empty like that), for example, is tremendous gain. Or as Maslow put it: self-actualisation is what makes man most happy (and if you believe that's 'empty', then more power to you). Trading in my life for increased productivity is not a deal I'm very willing to engage in, you see.
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You fear that the cyborgs/whatever will do like you, caring only about themselves (like you do), not about the "child" (or you), but in the end, you only fear yourself!
No, I fear I will cease to exist. Yes, I also fear my fellow man, but to a healthy degree. Nothing like a little fear to get the combat-instincts flowing.
Or rather it's a healthy dstrust.
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mvassilev
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posted December 31, 2009 04:24 AM |
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Dagoth:
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Yeah, I guess, I won't notice death...
Hard not to notice when you're already debating with him.
And anyway, the difference between teleportation and death is that death results in a permanent end to consciousness, whereas teleportation does not.
Death:
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Is living in an illusion but with pleasant experiences "gain"?
The only functional difference between an illusory and a non-illusory world is that if you're living in an illusory world (say, the Matrix), and something goes wrong, you can die of reasons you could completely not predict or prevent. It's a question of security, nothing more.
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DagothGares
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posted December 31, 2009 04:47 AM |
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But isn't it a permanent end to your specific conciousness and the spawning of a new one that is a copy, but isn't your consciousness? I mean, we don't know do we? I'm more inclined to believe it's the sameone, if we're just dissembled and reassembled with the exact same particles, but I'm not so sure if it's done with different ones, even though structurally there may be no discernible difference or there is a scientific reason to believe so. call it superstition, if you want
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lucky_dwarf
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posted December 31, 2009 04:48 AM |
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Humans telling other humans to leave animals the **** alone doesn't help so why do you think this would?
Well yeah, but if a lab rat told you not to give it shots, that would be different.
Edit: i had some really good points that i wanted to edit in here, but then i kept reading till page 2 and my eyes went sore. Screw Philosophy, it makes my brain hurt.
Edit2: oh yeah, Suppose the AI's went all "why am I here, what is the meaning to life?" would they not need us, being the original peaces of the puzzle?
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blizzardboy
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posted December 31, 2009 04:49 AM |
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Security is also one of the advantages. You roam in a virtual terrain while your body is in a supposedly safe location.
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blizzardboy
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posted December 31, 2009 04:57 AM |
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But isn't it a permanent end to your specific conciousness and the spawning of a new one that is a copy, but isn't your consciousness? I mean, we don't know do we? I'm more inclined to believe it's the sameone, if we're just dissembled and reassembled with the exact same particles, but I'm not so sure if it's done with different ones, even though structurally there may be no discernible difference or there is a scientific reason to believe so. call it superstition, if you want
I believe you would be equally dead (lol?) in either circumstance. Though admittedly we can't sufficiently say with certainty.
My twins example shows my thoughts on it. If you have identical twins that had identical experiences, they are essentially replicas, and yet I doubt anybody would dispute that there is a separate consciousness piloting each person. If, then, you dissemble your body (kill yourself) and reassemble it, there would be a new consciousness piloting that person, just as there would be a new body.
However, to add an interesting food-for-thought note on the matter, every single molecule in our bodies has been replaced since the time we were born. However, in this case, the transfer was very gradual and we were never medically dead in the process. In the case of teleportation we would be utterly destroyed, and a new chain of synapses would ignite for the clone.
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DagothGares
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posted December 31, 2009 05:06 AM |
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Blizzardboy: sure? Even brain cells? I believe I remember reading somewhere that dead brain cells don't get replaced, unlike the other types.
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