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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: If we tried to reach something real and equal or greater than us...
Thread: If we tried to reach something real and equal or greater than us... This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
posted December 31, 2009 08:24 PM
Edited by Celfious at 20:27, 31 Dec 2009.

good evil, right wrong, however its labeled it exists in every moral decision we make if it is over played or not in stories. There are of course situations where its like, who the hell says whats Right and wrong? I think the destruction of innocence is wrong. Etc

and this may not have relevance but ironically I am watching transformers (fall of the rise or something) for the first time right now, the key just turned to dust


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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted December 31, 2009 08:26 PM

Not really, no one conciously chooses to do evil.
Except, perhaps an exception here or there.
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Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
posted December 31, 2009 08:29 PM
Edited by Celfious at 20:31, 31 Dec 2009.

temptations,

in my mind the pay off of evil deeds can be a contributing factor of much of the "evil" in the world.

We can call it evil or whatever.. Destructiveness..

The world is sort of plagued by businesses deciding things based on revenue instead of preserveirance. Much crime as well. Crime and moral violations are not always the same so...


It kind of is just to say people do not make the right decision very much enough to say the choice of evil/wrong/selfishness/destruction/whatever is rare.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 31, 2009 08:44 PM

It'snot a question of wanting to do evil or not, it's a question of having a good enough excuse or not.

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lucky_dwarf
lucky_dwarf


Promising
Supreme Hero
Visiting
posted December 31, 2009 08:45 PM

I think dagoth has been reading Fahrenhite 451 a bit to many times 0_0
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 31, 2009 08:49 PM

Quote:
I don't like the bad guys
But you're one of them!

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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted December 31, 2009 08:52 PM
Edited by DagothGares at 20:58, 31 Dec 2009.

Quote:
I think dagoth has been reading Fahrenhite 451 a bit to many times 0_0
I... Don't even know what that is...

EDIT: read the wikipedia entry...
Not exactly, but yes, I'm very pessimistic when I think of the masses and culture.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted January 01, 2010 03:42 AM

Quote:
Good-and-evil-thinking is far too simplistic and I hoped we evolved beyond that point in cultural media.


I would hope that people are evolved enough to discern between good and evil. It is truly unfortunate that some can't....or won't.

Quote:
In fact, the tiranny of simplicity (and there IS one) (it's something like idiocracy, but a lot less malicious) is what I find to be worse.


Ah, but really most of life is pretty simple. Good and evil are simple concepts that reflect the truth of life.

I would wager that you have said "That is wrong" before. If someone cheated you out of money you would feel wronged. You would press charges against a thief and try to get your property back.

If someone raped your wife you would want "justice."  If ther is no right or wrong there is no such thing as justice and certainly there should be no retribution or punishment for any action.

Quote:
Of course, when they're portrayed cartoonishly evil (like the nazis in indiana jones!) I'm obviously rooting for the hero, but that's putting things in a simple way and simplicity is a treacherous road via cultural and social media.


Why? If you truly believe that "Good-and-evil-thinking is far too simplistic" why do you have feelings that make you root for the good guy and against the evil guy? I always see that reaction in theatres. The bad guy does bad stuff, the good guy catches up to him and kicks his butt and everyone cheers.  People know that good and evil exist and a good person wants to see good triumph.

Quote:
Not really, no one conciously chooses to do evil.
Except, perhaps an exception here or there.


I dispute that. People who break into houses and steal know they are doing evil. They just don't care. A person who robs a convience store and kills the clerk knows he is doing evil but he does not care.  Yeah, on some level he may try to justify his actions. And with every action a person takes that is against their conscience it becomes easier to go against it again.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted January 01, 2010 05:04 AM

Quote:
Ah, but really most of life is pretty simple. Good and evil are simple concepts that reflect the truth of life.
I disagree.

Your first two paragraphs are issues wth no colour. You refuse to resolve the issue with intelligence (as in, the original meaning of intelligence, hey guys, I know latin!)

Though, be careful, I never said there were no morals. I said there was no good and evil. I'm glad we worked this out. This was based on a misunderstanding all along.

What Oedipous Rex did was morally wrong, but it wasn't evil. Do you see?

Quote:
Why? If you truly believe that "Good-and-evil-thinking is far too simplistic" why do you have feelings that make you root for the good guy and against the evil guy?
I don't. Storytelling with no greater value. I stopped caring.

Quote:
I always see that reaction in theatres. The bad guy does bad stuff, the good guy catches up to him and kicks his butt and everyone cheers.  People know that good and evil exist and a good person wants to see good triumph.
A person wants to be secure in his simplictic visions of the world and would love to see that he's validated in that.

Quote:
People who break into houses and steal know they are doing evil. They just don't care.
I disagree. The answer is too easy and that would be cheating.

Quote:
And with every action a person takes that is against their conscience it becomes easier to go against it again.
Clearly you have no idea what regret is. Some people might consider this pitiful.

You see, this is all too easy for you. You can't imagine how some people wake up in the morning in the filth and mess that is their life and rob a convenient store in good conscience, so you imagine there must be this internal switch inside their heads that says "Okay, today I'll do something evil." and leave it at that. People are rather complex, though since you reject pschology, you would disagree. I don't like you, elodin. Why am I even responding? Probably because it'd feel like cheating, if I ignored you. I must be a bad human being for that.

Quote:
that reflect the truth of life.
Humour me, elodin, what is this truth? Now, what is this truth without God?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 01, 2010 05:31 AM

Now here, I actually agree with Elodin. Usually, good and evil are quite simple concepts. The problem comes when some people/actions are good in some respects and bad in others.

Quote:
What Oedipous Rex did was morally wrong, but it wasn't evil.
Are you referring to him killing his father, marrying his mother, or blinding himself?

Quote:
Storytelling with no greater value.
says the guy who watches anime, reads manga, participates in RPs, and reads classical literature.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted January 01, 2010 06:07 AM
Edited by DagothGares at 06:10, 01 Jan 2010.

Quote:
Are you referring to him killing his father, marrying his mother, or blinding himself?
first two

I'm tired as heck. Yet I can't sleep, so I apologise for lack of being coherent.

Quote:
says the guy who watches anime, reads manga, participates in RPs, and reads classical literature.
Guilty as charged! And I like it!
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 01, 2010 11:07 AM

It's much simpler.
First of all, there has to be a notion, an idea of the fact that a deed is a problem. For example, basically for everyone there is a big difference between "illegal" and "evil". People doing illegal things do not necessarily think that what they do is evil, but when push comes to shove tax-evasion or downöoading isn't that much different from robbing a gas-station - it's all just a matter of the personal excuses someone has, whether it is for breaking the law or doing things considered "evil".

No one wants to do evil things (and it doesn't matter what is defined as "evil" here: moral evil, breaking the law "true" evil, no matter) FOR THAT REASON (i.e. doing evil things), except maybe Satanists. It's all just a question of having a "good enough" PERSONAL excuse. The question all amounts to the excuse a specific person has, to do what he or she does.

An obvious example is self-defense. Someone is attacked and kills the attacker. The deed as such - the killing - is evil, however the excuse (or justification) is as good as it gets: self-preservation.
You can take every "evil" deed and if you ask the doer you'll find the the DOER has an excuse. The question is always, whether society accepts the excuse ("society always treated me badly, so I decided to treat soeciety badly and rob a bank" won't be accepted, for example).
If you are a religious person, it's, however, not the question, whether god accepts the excuse, but whether the evil-doer really repents his or her sin(s), which is - in theory - a very different concept, because it means, no matter how "good" or "bad" an excuse, the deed as such STILL has to be repented.

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Wolfsburg
Wolfsburg


Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
posted January 01, 2010 12:10 PM
Edited by Wolfsburg at 12:49, 01 Jan 2010.

Good and evil are nothing but our current interpretation of facts.

In ancient egypt some pharaos would demand their wives and clergy to be buried with them, to serve them on the new spiritual existence. That rule applied even when those were alive and well.

In the feudal times you would send your daughter for marriage at age 12-13, even when the husband would be ten to twenty years older. The marriage included sexual intercourse.

I am sure those habits were accepted and considered normal back then, but fortunately human beings tend to evolve and percieve new things as bad and understand others as good. Nowadays you would have your butt rightfully thrown in jail for having sex with a 12y.o but you can walk in a convenience store and there will be adult magazines with photos of real naked people. Something which would be considered a straight ticket to hell in the middle ages.

In the eightenn hundreds you were allowed by law to own slaves, which was not considered a bad thing. Although nowadays slavery is considered a monstruosity practically all around the globe.

Good and Evil are products of our creed, time and local culture, and all of those change. There is no such a thing as an absolute notion of good and bad, and even if there was such a thing it would be still far from our human limitations of understanding.

Wolfs

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted January 01, 2010 12:11 PM

Quote:
What message, video, picture, poem, song, etc, would you send to them?
If there was some broadcast to outer space, or a collection of the voice of individual humans with no moderation or rules...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
We could ask them to forgive us for hurting the world and to help us learn the way, and for answers.

Because there is no rule, we could even treat it as a joke and ask them to blow up a squirrel with some alien tech laser beam to prove they exist.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

(the following is along the lines of what would inspire whatever I would say)
I would ask them to fix something big, their choice, or at least tell us how we can. And I would request its something that we would see regularly enough to remind us how bad our existence and idiocy screws up the world, as if we own the ground we walk on.

We need a miracle to help not only our minds, not only that we neglect the fact that life is precious yet we consider most living organisms useless unless we can take something from it, or it naturally provides us with air or something.

We need a freeze on the environmental disaster we look to each other with some 'oh well nothing I can do' kind of stupidity.

Blunt to the point I am very displeased with "humanity" and I probably made the decision before I realized it but I would fear to have a child considering the honest reality, dismal, dark, fading, and dying.

There is light in perhaps everything, but what good is the glimmer in the midst of a fire?



We w ould endd up like you!!!
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 01, 2010 01:33 PM

Quote:
Good and Evil are products of our creed, time and local culture, and all of those change. There is no such a thing as an absolute notion of good and bad, and even if there was such a thing it would be still far from our human limitations of understanding.


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lucky_dwarf
lucky_dwarf


Promising
Supreme Hero
Visiting
posted January 01, 2010 04:18 PM

Quote:

I am sure those habits were accepted and considered normal back then, but fortunately human beings tend to evolve and percieve new things as bad and understand others as good. Nowadays you would have your butt rightfully thrown in jail for having sex with a 12y.o but you can walk in a convenience store and there will be adult magazines with photos of real naked people. Something which would be considered a straight ticket to hell in the middle ages.



And THAT ladies and gentlemen is why time travel is a bad idea.

Oh and on the whole good vs evil thing.

Quote:
   Good-and-evil-thinking is far too simplistic and I hoped we evolved beyond that point in cultural media.


I agree

Quote:
People who break into houses and steal know they are doing evil. They just don't care. A person who robs a convience store and kills the clerk knows he is doing evil but he does not care.  Yeah, on some level he may try to justify his actions.


Um... have you ever heard of survival of the fittest? A burglar may go in to steal stuff from peoples houses, but he may have no other options(a scenario which is extremely applicable today), Imagine if the burglar had a sister, that was pregnant, with little to no money. And with no jobs available, thats the only way to help her.

How do you like them apples?

Same applies to robbing the store, except that the only reason he shoots the clerk is that either he has no mask(Which is stupid!) The clerk recognizes him/her, the robber is paranoid/ the robber is cruel.(troll moment here

And that reminds me of a movie, where this guy is on the phone, with someone who was kidnapped and is using a phone to contact help. And the phone runs out of batteries. So of all the things he could do, he stops as a convenience store to buy batteries. But get this, he has no money, and he doesn't want to lose the call(Which would lead to the womans death.) So he pulls out a gun and asks the clerk for batteries, only batteries.

Now is that good or evil?
(end of troll moment.)

P.s. Do you guys ignore my posts on philosophy threads?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 01, 2010 07:54 PM

Dagoth:
Quote:
first two
He wasn't guilty of killing his father because it was self-defence. As for marrying his mother - one cannot be evil when one does not know that one is doing things that are evil.

JJ:
Quote:
The deed as such - the killing - is evil, however the excuse (or justification) is as good as it gets: self-preservation.
I don't think it's an excuse in this case. It's fundamentally different. Killing is evil because society would suck if it wasn't. But! If you're killing in self-defence, then there's nothing wrong with that, because self-defence doesn't hurt anyone except the person who's already doing something wrong.

Wolf:
I don't agree. I think as long as there is more than one person on Earth, there is absolute good and evil. Yes, different societies have had different standards, but, as time went by, we mostly kept moving towards the optimal/best standard. Just because there are different standards doesn't mean there isn't one that's better than all the others.

dwarf:
It's both good and evil. I would do the same in his situation, but I must disapprove and seek to punish anyone else who would.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 01, 2010 08:16 PM

Quote:
because self-defence doesn't hurt anyone except the person who's already doing something wrong.

Going by that logic you can pretty much do anything you want to evil people without being evil yourself.

Quote:
Yes, different societies have had different standards, but, as time went by, we mostly kept moving towards the optimal/best standard.

Who are you to decide that? I mean, we're only human, we have no idea what the "best" solution is, so how do we know that we are moving towards it?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 01, 2010 08:22 PM

Quote:
Going by that logic you can pretty much do anything you want to evil people without being evil yourself.
Yes. The only problem is identifying evil people and determining a fair punishment, which is why I'm opposed to vigilantism. But there's nothing morally wrong about it if done 100% accurately and perfectly. It just wouldn't be in real life.

Quote:
Who are you to decide that? I mean, we're only human, we have no idea what the "best" solution is, so how do we know that we are moving towards it?
Because generally people today are much more able to get what they want than ever before.
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lucky_dwarf
lucky_dwarf


Promising
Supreme Hero
Visiting
posted January 01, 2010 08:31 PM

mvass is right, In France they have something called a crime of passion so for example:

You kill a serial killer who happened to kill your brother. They say you are not a public threat because you were killing for a reason.
Hence everything is ok!
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