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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted November 14, 2011 05:56 PM |
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Do you know anything about incorporating, Del?
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 14, 2011 06:21 PM |
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I am allowed to dream, am I not? It would fix a lot of issues just removing that. That it can't be done is another issue.
But as it is a ideal, one must get the closest possible to such a thing, whatever that may be can be realistic.
So "staw much"?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 14, 2011 07:56 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 19:59, 14 Nov 2011.
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Quote:
See that bolded point there? Think to yourself, "Does this person feel underpaid?" Answer: probably! Not making ends meeet is one of the most influential factors on a perspective of feeling underpaid. Now Let's use the example of a CEO... will the CEO of a successful company that earns 20x his Y value complain about X? Will he say that he's underpaid? Not unless he lives on Wallstreet
What does that prove? How do you know that the CEO "won't feel underpaid"? The high level managers are usually overloaded with responsibilities and - again usually - have plenty of work to do which requires both education and talent. They can be underpaid just like every other hired employee, no matter that they get much less than the minimum required to survive. And really, what's the percentage of the CEOs who get 20xY in the workforce of a random developed country compared to the regular workers?
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You should not be so quick to denounce every social theory out there.
I'm definitely not denouncing every social theory out there, only the ones which make no sense and are just a propaganda echo of some older ideologies which have been violently disproven. You may want to check Europe's economic and labour history in XVIII and XIX century when it was considered absolutely normal to work 12-18 hours per day, 6 to 7 days per week, no less than 330-340 days per year for an existence minimum salary - the ideologists of this very same system thought just like you do now, that "nobody is forcing nobody to work where he works or to work at all". As a result you have strikes, uprisings, the Paris Commune and ultimately the USSR which turned the whole thing into a mockery of itself but that's another topic.
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Fortunately in this great evil that you call a capitalistic society, we can write a book about it and get some money. And there is this thing called promotions that generally follow working your but off... Not always though, I'll be willing to admit that. Perhapse you should realize that not all people in the US are mind-slaves. I'll admit that there are problems, but that there are always solutions to said problems. Smog poisoning? Move out of the city. Not enough jobs in your overpopulated urban area? Well, pool together with some other people who don't have enough, gamble and start your own business in the suburbs. It won't be easy and you will fail a few times here and there, but each time you will learn and improve. The problem comes when people envision themselves as poor. When that happens, the poor stay poor because they have no will to change, adapt or grow. They'll complain, sure, heck they'll even act on an opportunity if it seems that they cannot fail, but actively persue and creat their own opportunities? Not common in the slightest.
What "great evil"? You keep being idealistic. The capitalism is what it is, the point is not whether it is "good" or "evil" as some child would classify it. The capitalism is a system which has its proven advantages but also its proven flaws. Certain people turn the advantages into an idol and completely ignore or severely belittle the flaws, they are the apologists of the system and their "theories" are completely unreliable. A "theory" which says that the employer has the right to pay you as much (or as little) as he wants if you "freely agree" to work for him no matter what choices you really have and you always get as much as you deserve no matter how much time and energy you invest in your work is both void of any scientific sense - because according to it everything is subjective and random - and also does not take the interests of the employee into consideration at all, making itself biased, i.e. flawed to the extreme. And then some people wonder why some other people break the law.
As for the people who "envision themselves" as poor - do you really think that this is the only reason why they stay poor? 
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Maybe in Belgium (Your country, right Xeno?) you don't have the option of creating a business of your own, maybe that warps your mindset, maybe mine is warped by living in the US, but I'm pretty sure that capitalistic pig dog countries allow people to succeed and fail at their own wills.
I'm from Bulgaria, not Belgium. My mind is massively warped by the reality here which is not pretty at all and I don't deny it. There are much worse places to live than here though and I myself have a well paid job for the local standards which is among other things relatively secure (a real luxury). That's not the point. There are some things which are universal for a specific type of society and economy no matter where you live and if you think that you are safe just because you live in the US, you'll be badly surprised. In your case your country can't afford to accumulate gazillions of external debt forever and depends on too many things which you maybe now take for granted, in other developed countries' cases the problems are different (or similar) but exist either in stasis or are manifesting themselves openly. So it will be curious to see if the loud proponents of this "choice" which you consider "free" will remain that loud when these problems hit them in the face.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted November 14, 2011 08:31 PM |
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Quote:
Maybe in Belgium (Your country, right Xeno?) you don't have the option of creating a business of your own
Wat?
Gnomes... Seriously? You...
Do you even know where Belgium is on the world map? And here I was thinking so highly of you and suddenly you turn around and think the capital of the EU only has government-owned corporations?
The only countries in the world like that have been behind the iron curtain and are decidedly non-germanic. My heart is broken...
EDIT:
Quote:
I'm definitely not denouncing every social theory out there, only the ones which make no sense and are just a propaganda echo of some older ideologies which have been violently disproven. You may want to check Europe's economic and labour history in XVIII and XIX century when it was considered absolutely normal to work 12-18 hours per day, 6 to 7 days per week, no less than 330-340 days per year for an existence minimum salary - the ideologists of this very same system thought just like you do now, that "nobody is forcing nobody to work where he works or to work at all". As a result you have strikes, uprisings, the Paris Commune and ultimately the USSR which turned the whole thing into a mockery of itself but that's another topic.
Yes, but the common life standard vastly improved in that time as well (just think off the huge demographic explosion that followed industrialisation.) It was still better to work in a mine or a factory somewhere, than to be a serf.
In fact, the rise of the USSR came to be in countries that were decidedly NOT industrialised NOR liberal (tsarist Russia, basically) (and later, China, which I know too little of to say something about. I only know that Stalin thought they were a backwards people and considered them worthless in his time, so China can't have been too advanced I reckon).
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 14, 2011 09:12 PM |
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The living standard of the regular factory workers in XVIII - XIX century was not much better than that of the serfs and in some regards it was even worse. It started to improve after the trade unions and the other labour organizations came into being and especially after the impression that workforce can be exploited literally to death resulted in civil disorders of various magnitude, including small and not so small revolutions.
As for the USSR - the thing is that the revolution there found enough popular support even if you consider the fact that it was actually imported from outside and carefully orchestrated in order to succeed. The Russians did have their working class among other things. But that's not for this topic really. The point is that the mindless exploitation and disregarding the interests of large social groups never ends well. After World War I basically entire Europe was leaning towards the leftist movements, Germany was one step away from becoming a second USSR, France wasn't much further away and so on.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 09:45 PM |
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Zeno:
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What person's perspective?
The employee's. If the employee agrees to the wage and is paid in the correct amount and on time, then demonstrably they are not underpaid - if they were underpaid, they wouldn't have taken the job. And if the employer and employee both agree to the wage, I don't see what place there is for an interventionist tyrant.
As for your point about the debt, it's caused by politicians spending beyond their means. Nothing to do with capitalism. You're also mistaken about the workers of the Industrial Revolution - if the factories weren't better, they wouldn't have left their farms.
JJ:
Your scenario is somewhat incoherent as you stated it. If you offer me "five times more than it's worth" and I refuse, then obviously it's worth more than you think. Economic value is subjective, and everything is worth what the buyer and seller voluntarily agree to, not any more or less.
I wouldn't see it any differently in the case of the doctor.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 14, 2011 09:48 PM |
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 14, 2011 11:05 PM |
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Quote:
As for your point about the debt, it's caused by politicians spending beyond their means.
not exactly. it seems to me that it is mostly because of interest rates. if it weren't for them, debts would have already been more than reimbursed.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted November 15, 2011 01:00 AM |
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It's mostly because of people living beyond their means.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 15, 2011 01:01 AM |
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But...but...but.... aren't we entitled to have anything and everything we want just because we want it????
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted November 15, 2011 03:00 AM |
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@ Xeno:
First:
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I'm from Bulgaria, not Belgium
Damn! Sorry about that... countries/ states/ cities/ locations with "B" anywhere in the name cause me problems... My mind has revolted. It has told itself, "Too much stuff with 'B' in it! **** it, EVERYTHING is Belgium!" and it just won't stop... Plus (and I believe I have mentioned this before) I am absolutely horrendous with geography. The extent of my map reading ability is ^North, vSouth, >East, <West, America, Britain (which is half of the time called Britania!), France, Germany, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Japan, Russia and China. T_T I pretty much failed every map test I've taken throughout my lifetime...
Second:
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As for the people who "envision themselves" as poor - do you really think that this is the only reason why they stay poor?
No, not in the slightest. I'm saying that those who have been poor and who have just given up trying not to be poor will forever be poor. That's the mindset I was trying to get at, a broken man/ woman/ child will do little if anything to improve their standings and opportunities.
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Yeah, sure, whatever.
I do like this argument. Prepare for immortalization.
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What "great evil"? You keep being idealistic. The capitalism is what it is, the point is not whether it is "good" or "evil" as some child would classify it.
When will you realize when I'm joking with you? The "Great evil" and "Capitalist pig-dog" lines came about because you kept trashing America and capitalism, so I decided that it might be fun to throw it in there. Yeash. 
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So it will be curious to see if the loud proponents of this "choice" which you consider "free" will remain that loud when these problems hit them in the face.
Number five: Ayup. Everyone has a choice, no matter what. If they do not chose, someone will chose for them. In the case of murder, a deranged or desperate man may chose to end someone's life and cut away all of their choices. A man can chose to be happy or bitter, content or depressed. Emotions and perspectives, while easily influenced, will at least stay free across every country you go to.
Even in North Korea, you can't tell someone, "Your hormonal balance will be XYZ at 18:00 hours." You can warp their religion, their thought process and their sense of wright and wrong, but theirs will always be the choice to do as directed. Now since I'm not going to use a perfect example and invoke Godwin's law (Belgium Nurnberg), I'll use a different example. Certain cults have arisen in the past few decades that commit crimes such as theft, murder, etc, etc. These people have been decolialized and then recocialized to think that this is morally right, brainwashed even, but even so some few resist all the efforts to turn them into emotionless, heartless and moral-less beings. These people are as close to robots as they can become... and yet if brought back into society, if re-integrated, they remember everything that they had "Forgotten." For this reason, if this reason alone, it is determined that they are still in control of themselves. This ruling is more or less consistent in court... if you believe in the court system. You seem to change between emotional and logical arguments at will, so I'm not sure if this will have the desired effect...
Anyway, if cults are not able to destroy free will, then how does mere economic status rob more of your right or ability to chose than brainwashing?
@ Cor:
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But...but...but.... aren't we entitled to have anything and everything we want just because we want it????
The sarcasm. It burns.
@ Del:
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The best way out of poverty is education, and if your country has a costly education, you lose your first chance. 1/100 can perhaps manage to get scholarships and eternal debt, but in reality very few can do that. Why? Because the main resource for a kid is the enviroment his parents provide, and poor peasants provide a poor enviroment. Gangsterborn kids are raised in a even worse enviroment.
True, but there are still exceptions. Gangster-born kids are usually born in the streets and are taken in by a foster home or family until they are ~8 and the gang recruits them... but then there are stories where a poor man or gangster makes their life better. Usual cause? "I forced myself to change, to become someone else. I forced myself to try. I got help ((sometimes not an option, but that's only very rarely)) and was able to turn my life around."
For the most part, you are right... -ish. On education, you are looking at poor countries where the vast majority of people can't even afford basic education. Mostly you focus on the problem of poverty... a different subject than the dilemma we are discussing at the time.
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1. FIX education
Yes.
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2. Remove startup cost of making a corporation
Lower, not remove. Removing (while admirable) is not the best economic decision for a gov...
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3. Increase the minimum wage by a lot
Or establish a minimum wage in the first place. (Most poor countries don't even have one...)
@ DG:
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Gnomes... Seriously? You... My heart is broken...
T_T
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Do you even know where Belgium is on the world map?
No.  T_T
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 15, 2011 07:54 AM |
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Quote:
JJ:
Your scenario is somewhat incoherent as you stated it. If you offer me "five times more than it's worth" and I refuse, then obviously it's worth more than you think. Economic value is subjective, and everything is worth what the buyer and seller voluntarily agree to, not any more or less.
I wouldn't see it any differently in the case of the doctor.
But society sees it differently. A doctor cannot withhold his services in severe cases - he MUST help: morally, because he has to swear an oath, and legally, since he is legally obligated, otherwise he can be hold responsible. Now, in cases a person cannot pay for services rendered, society may have rules in case, how to recompensate a doctor for services rendered for free.
Depending on society, EITHER service rates are price-controlled (no free economy) OR doctors are NOT recompensated, but have to try and get their money from wealthier patients.
Why does a potentially live-saving SERVICE (let's say an operation) differ from a potentially live-saving DRUG?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 15, 2011 08:09 AM |
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Quote:
Why does a potentially live-saving SERVICE (let's say an operation) differ from a potentially live-saving DRUG?
It's not any different. The doctor should be free to withhold his services.
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Eccentric Opinion
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted November 15, 2011 08:34 AM |
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Gnomes: pro-tip: Belgium is where France, Germany and Great Britain go to settle their disputes (see both world wars, the battle of Waterloo, etc.), so it's in between those three countries.
Belgium was one of the first colonial powers and one of the first industrialised powers, so it's a pretty rich and western country. It does have the tendency towards a welfare state since the sixties or so, but being a welfare state is a far cry from having government-owned corporations.
Now you know.
And
EDIT: Also, don't feel bad, I can point out at most like three states of the US or so and my fourth one would be like "New York is a state on the west coast, right?" I was just a little shocked is all.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 15, 2011 08:55 AM |
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Quote:
It's mostly because of people living beyond their means.
from an ecological point of view, I agree.
economically, there is really no limit.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 15, 2011 09:33 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Why does a potentially live-saving SERVICE (let's say an operation) differ from a potentially live-saving DRUG?
It's not any different. The doctor should be free to withhold his services.
Oh dear. And the fire squad as well, I suppose.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 15, 2011 10:39 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:42, 15 Nov 2011.
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Damn! Sorry about that... countries/ states/ cities/ locations with "B" anywhere in the name cause me problems...
No offence taken at all but I wouldn't say that this is something to be proud of.
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No, not in the slightest. I'm saying that those who have been poor and who have just given up trying not to be poor will forever be poor. That's the mindset I was trying to get at, a broken man/ woman/ child will do little if anything to improve their standings and opportunities.
Why sure, you are right but what "breaks" a man/woman/child?
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I do like this argument. Prepare for immortalization.
That was directed at mvass who seems to be too heavily indoctrinated to be worth arguing with. And therefore I will arrogantly ignore his arguments as long as this topic is being discussed which is a manifestation of my free will. Take it and go.
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When will you realize when I'm joking with you? The "Great evil" and "Capitalist pig-dog" lines came about because you kept trashing America and capitalism, so I decided that it might be fun to throw it in there. Yeash.
Your sarcasm is lost on me though. 
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Anyway, if cults are not able to destroy free will, then how does mere economic status rob more of your right or ability to chose than brainwashing?
Oh, quite simple - the cults are enforcing something on your brain and you may or may not believe it. Sure, there are great ways to brainwash people and turn them into puppets and I wouldn't say that the most successful totalitarian states are at the same time the most successful brainwashing states - but in the end every idea clashes with the reality which may reject it and that's what usually happen with unfounded ideas. The economy is the material life, it's working on your entire physical being, hence its influence on you is much more direct and great. In the ancient times it was quite common for people to sell themselves as slaves so they can provide food for themselves and their families. This hasn't changed much.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 15, 2011 11:43 AM |
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mvass:
Quote:
Zeno:
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The employee's. If the employee agrees to the wage and is paid in the correct amount and on time, then demonstrably they are not underpaid - if they were underpaid, they wouldn't have taken the job.
John: "I demand X, we both know I am worth it"
Bourgeois: "I agree there sunny, but we also know that there is the 20 other guys applying for this position, so... No. I will take whoever agrees to be underpaid."
The perfect demonstration of why you are wrong. The Employer can blackmail and exthort the people he are hiring, and because its not a direct threat its suppose to be legal. A black black legal hole you fascists tend to support.
Having a quite decent safety net reduces the problem, because it means you can go unemployed. But it still does not solve the problem. Unions and regulations tends to solve parts of the problem, but it can still be done.
So how can we achive 100 units of employment, and 105 units of demand for employment my good sir? Until we are there, it won't be good.
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You're also mistaken about the workers of the Industrial Revolution - if the factories weren't better, they wouldn't have left their farms.
"Sorry, kids, we only like George and Sunny out of you bunch. So we only keep them, you others will have to go out in the world and see if you can make a living somewhere."
This is mostly what happened.
You already KNEW that "your snowed" when you saw the smoke and pollution as you got closer to the town.
"Starve of work, while in snow" was the motto, so you are quite wrong.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted November 15, 2011 05:52 PM |
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Quote:
"Sorry, kids, we only like George and Sunny out of you bunch. So we only keep them, you others will have to go out in the world and see if you can make a living somewhere."
This is mostly what happened.
You already KNEW that "your snowed" when you saw the smoke and pollution as you got closer to the town.
"Starve of work, while in snow" was the motto, so you are quite wrong.
Yeah, the industrial revolution was awful. Everyone hated a huge boom in employment, the fact that they may buy more than one pair of pants in their life time and the vast increase and cheapness of agricultural produce that allowed for bigger families and subsequently a demographic explosion.
Serfs used to have six kids, but infancy mortality rates were staggeringly high at the old days, due to shortages of food and terrible hygienic circumstances, so they only had about two left or so (so the population was stagnant and only in the high middle ages, people who were serfs were sent to cities to trade off some agricultural produce or do some work on the side (since there were enough to work the fields)). The fact agricultural families grew larger and that some escaped serfdom is a good thing for them individually and us as a species.
Not so say it didn't have it's bad moments near the end of the 19th century, but don't act as if the world was better without industrialisation.
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you fascists
Capitalism is quite the opposite of totalitarianism, something you seem closer to advocating, what with your cry for more government control.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted November 15, 2011 06:00 PM |
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DagothGares: Gares, Mvass said "The factory workers who had migrated from the countryside did so because it would get them a better life", and we all know it was not that way.
But the Industrial revolution is a done issue, and we have had our civil liberty fights, like in many nations, which is the entire reason it got better.
So it saying "Industrial revolution was beneficial" is a fact, but its irrelevant to the discussion.
PS: Sosialliberalism is the word you are looking for. If the Corporatinos owns everything, Mussulini would have agreed with calling it a fascist state.
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