|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
posted November 06, 2010 12:02 PM |
|
Edited by MrDragon at 12:06, 06 Nov 2010.
|
Quote:
That's the same thing as your Pikeman argument, it's an attempt for both familiar and new. The "regular" Angel might have a different color, head-ornament, different sword etc. That's the bad thing about having angel as a race, it's hard to make proper variations.
Whilst there are similarities, this case is different as they aren't using the name Pikeman to describe a creature higher ranking then Sentinel and Preatorian.
Regarding those by the way, it seems the Preatorian has a shield, which makes it legitimately a "new unit" I'd say.
Without the shield it would have been "pikeman with a fancy name" which doesn't qualify as a "new unit" for me.
It's weird, but that immediately changes it for me, possibly because it will mean it's stats will balance widely different, probably lending itself more to a heavy defensive unit instead of light weight offensive.
Also the gameplay video somehow hammered home the point it's wearing much more/heavier armor then the pikeman.
Also, please don't think I disapprove of the Pikeman, I think it's a great opening unit, much better then the Peasant.
Similarly I believe the Seraph and Celestial are just renamed Angel and Arch Angel, whilst a being higher ranking then those has now been called Angel.
I mean the unit really is nearly identical to it's precursor.
This is not necessarily a bad thing, I'm not against them bringing old creatures back. So long as they don't bring ALL of them back.
There is plenty of space in Haven for some serious innovation.
I'll admit, the Preatorian, counts as one.
Edit: So we can ignore the fact that the previous incarnation of the Seraph was higher ranking then the Angel?
I really think it's just name shuffling, these two "renamed" angels don't look or seem to be any lesser then their HV counterparts.
In fact quite the opposite, they seem to be greater if anything, but only barely.
|
|
Danny
Famous Hero
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 12:14 PM |
|
|
Quote:
There is plenty of space in Haven for some serious innovation.
But there really isn't. H6 is a prequel so possibilities are very limited. They couldn't have removed angels due to the lore, so this is the only way they could revamp them, to name them differently to represent the fact that not everyone in the angel race is identical.
And of course, being a religious-medieval human faction, it's quite trapped in its own concept. Since Necropolis now DARES to add non-undead units (judging them by appearance here and not counting H4 obviously), Haven will probably end up as the faction with the least changes. Most likely there will be only one "proper" new unit (assuming monks and horse-mounting units are back), even if it's not that spirit thing, what else could it be? It can't be another weak infantry like Peasant or Squire, Ballista or Catapult are probably out of question if war machines are still in the game, so the only thing missing is the Swordsman/Footman/Crusader infantry that might be too similar to the Sentinel and would not be "elite" enough. I'm not that familiar with Discpiles but it's not like their version of the human faction is any different than having healers, right?
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 12:20 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 12:27, 06 Nov 2010.
|
Quote:
Edit: So we can ignore the fact that the previous incarnation of the Seraph was higher ranking then the Angel?
I really think it's just name shuffling, these two "renamed" angels don't look or seem to be any lesser then their HV counterparts.
In fact quite the opposite, they seem to be greater if anything, but only barely.
It's not working like that. See the descriptions:
MMH6 Seraph:
Quote:
Physically imposing and striking in their perfection, the Angels of the Light are Elrath's messengers – and shock troops – on the face of Ashan. They are taller than normal humans, far more beautiful, and project an aura of power and confidence. Seraphim, on the other hand, are smaller and more human-like in their appearance. They started to appear after the creation of the Falcon Empire. Their true origins remain a mystery, but their devotion to Elrath is total. In battle they wield the twin blades of Judgment and Mercy.
Heroes V Angel:
Quote:
The Angels are the incarnation of Elrath on Ashan, and as such they are the ultimate representation of his power. These creatures of Light are fierce in combat and their attacks are always deadly. An angel cannot be killed, if its body is endangered it will return to its spirit form and rejoin its master.
Heroes V Seraph:
Quote:
The white wings of this angel have long been tainted by the blood of its enemies, and its scarlet attire serves as a warning to any who believe all angels are benevolent creatures. Seraphs exist not as saviours of the innocent, but as the scourge of their enemies.
There is a clear dividing line. The Angels are well-known creatures, the origin of which is clear even when the events of MMH:VI take place. Pretty much the same description of what is an "Angel" is given in Heroes V as well. The TotE Seraph is explicitly called "angel". The MMH:VI Seraph is at least partially differentiated from the the rest of the Angels - if it is an Angel at all - by being called "smaller" and "more human-like", also its origin is unclear. The contradiction is obvious for me and my point is that they are really NOT trying hard to give the creatures good names. This is just one of the many such examples so far.
Edit regarding Disciples: Actually there is some difference, although not really great - the Disciples humans employ Titans and wizards specializing predominantly in air magic. They can also summon Golems and Living Armors.
|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 01:10 PM |
|
Edited by MrDragon at 13:11, 06 Nov 2010.
|
So then we agree that the names are probably not the best point to judge them on, we're all just talking in different circles around that issue.
The only thing I'm saying beyond the names, is that I don't think all the champions are "weaker" then the HV counterparts lorewise, more that they are retconning the power structure into a more reasonable, less cluttered one.
It's actually hard to explain exactly what I mean, but that for example, they decided to remove Devils as a playable unit, Devils as soldiers/warriors in the Infernal army and more make them lore characters, leader figures, big-badass heroes, bosses or a combination of several or even all of those.
Filling the power vacuum with the Pit Lord as top guy for the actual units.
Basically what I'm talking about, is changes they are making in the divide between gameplay and story.
Also, just because it's a prequel doesn't mean they can't give the line-ups a thurough house cleaning, I mean Necro's packing some rather serious changes, as is Inferno.
No where in the time-line, which is vague at best when it comes to exact army composition details, is it suggested that Haven might not have employed other types of infantry or creatures as part of it's military.
They've got several hundred years of warfare to go, not to mention a swap in dynasty, before we're back to the HV lineup.
Things could have been very different back then.
|
|
Danny
Famous Hero
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 01:58 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Also, just because it's a prequel doesn't mean they can't give the line-ups a thurough house cleaning, I mean Necro's packing some rather serious changes, as is Inferno.
No where in the time-line, which is vague at best when it comes to exact army composition details, is it suggested that Haven might not have employed other types of infantry or creatures as part of it's military.
They've got several hundred years of warfare to go, not to mention a swap in dynasty, before we're back to the HV lineup.
Things could have been very different back then.
Possible on paper, yes. But the game is already telling us that the humans are not advancing, they are happy to be in their 13th century selves instead of progressing with technology, discovering steam or gunpowder. So there's only so much infantry types they can have. As for creatures, they COULD explain why they had an ally in H6 that was gone in H5, but what kinda creature would that be that fits their "image"? They needed flyers so in H3 they were given Griffins and Angels to strengthen their "noble" image (and monks) but that's all and basically nothing since then, not even H4 managed to reinvent them (other than replacing Griffin with Ballista). I assume the spirit thing, if indeed a unit, will be somehow related to the angels as well.
Yes, Necropolis is making some changes, they removed their dragons and another iffy unit for 2 non-undead ones, that surely will get some criticism because they aren't undead. I'm glad they break out from the "dead something" formula but it's also a limited faction. There are more possibilities for demons, magical creatures and beast-men. Unfortunately it's something the game has to stuck in. Isn't Heroes already the longest running game in its category? Is there any game that could be a template for Heroes in this aspect, that they manage to keep their races/factions fresh without any radical changes (i.e. Warcraft having elves and dwarves as part of the human faction)?
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 02:07 PM |
|
|
The coincidence is astonishing.
Awesome.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 02:36 PM |
|
Edited by MrDragon at 14:39, 06 Nov 2010.
|
Well, A creature that fits Haven's image isn't very hard.
Lets have a look.
Haven currently has two flyers, that will do.
So far they have 1 shooter, 1 melee infantry guy.
Presuming the Gryphon is elite, 1 elite flyer.
1 Champion flyer.
Presuming we'll see some kind of priest and some kind of knight, that leaves 1 slot.
In the previous games this slot was occupied by their second melee infantry guy.
Lets try and mix up that formula.
Something lightweight and offensive, yet sticking to their defensive nature, probably a harassing unit, great for blocking archers.
If a creature, preferably something intelligent, trainable, with a certain charisma.
Something small, the knight, gryphon and angel are all likely to be large 2x2 creatures.
An attack dog of some kind might work. It would easily mesh with their theme and is a creature known for being aggressive yet dependable when it comes to guarding.
Doesn't even have to be a dog, it could be some kind of magical creature, give it a collar and similar to the Gryphon some kind of "proud" or "defiant" look, slap on some ornate armor for the upgrade and presto.
Alternatively, make the priest a Core tier unit and stick a second creature up in Elite.
Knights and Gryphons both are units which are known for being quite fast, by haven standards at least.
They could use a slow unit, possibly a shooter if they make the priest melee, Ballista could be done as a unit again, but... neh.
Possibly play on the whole Elrath thing again, some kind of light aligned creature, possibly even attacking with light itself.
Maybe that spirit thing.
Maybe something more "exotic" or something still linking back to their Sylath days, I mean their culture didn't just change over night from the worship of one dragon to that of another.
There is room, and seeing as we know very little about 400 years ago other then some political figures, there being a war with demons, elves splitting up a little down the road and necromancy becoming more and more popular (and unpopular in some circles), we don't know that much.
Edit: Warcraft and Starcraft both did admirable jobs of freshening up their line-ups through the games.
Heroes itself has a LOT of creatures running back and forth between factions through the first five games.
|
|
veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 02:41 PM |
|
|
@bak
I like where they're going with this
____________
none of my business.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 05:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
So then we agree that the names are probably not the best point to judge them on, we're all just talking in different circles around that issue.
I don't see any circles here. The creature is badly named and badly described if you take into account Heroes V. This effectively makes it incomplete at best. It should not be left like this.
|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 06:47 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The creature is badly named and badly described if you take into account Heroes V. This effectively makes it incomplete at best. It should not be left like this.
Yeah so we agree on that then, it would be better if they changed the names to make more sense.
|
|
Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
|
|
posted November 06, 2010 10:36 PM |
|
Edited by Aosaw at 22:37, 06 Nov 2010.
|
What about a falconry type unit? Either a trained hawk, maybe a slightly larger one, that behaves somewhat like the Blood Fury and Harpies of old - it flies, it attacks, it returns; or a proper falconer, performing the same function but with an animated creature that "sends" the falcon on its turn.
That would give you a Core flying unit that is nonetheless not so strong that it outshines the Griffin; and it would give you a unit that does something quite different from what Haven is used to, while at the same time providing a link to the waning Falcon Duchy.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 12:19 AM |
|
|
I think the Haven line-up will end up looking like this:
Core
Crossbowman
Sentinel
Griffin
Elite
Cavalier
Divine Spirit thing
Swordsman/Crusader
Champion
Seraph
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 12:23 AM |
|
|
Not quite.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 02:48 AM |
|
|
I am pretty sure the spirit thing will appear as their main caster unit but not sure about the swordsman/crusader, lets hope they come up with something original and new there.
Falcons would be to similar to Griffins.
Maybe some kind of melee Battle monk (think Asian martial monks) would be cool.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
Danny
Famous Hero
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 07:17 AM |
|
|
|
I think Erwan had already said monks will be there. Another armored infantry would be redundant.
|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 08:27 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Core
Crossbowman
Sentinel
Priest/????
Elite
Cavalier
Gryphon
????/Priest
Champion
Seraph
My version.
I don't think the glowing light creature thing will be a unit, I think it's a spell effect of some kind.
|
|
Ebonite
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 09:14 AM |
|
|
|
quick moving warrior monk/martial artist in the core section would provide the speed factor that the core section from haven is missing.
|
|
vitorsly
Known Hero
Joker!
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 12:35 PM |
|
|
I like the eagle trainer Idea that could evolve to a falcon trainer!
Sounds good for core while the player waits for the griffin!
|
|
Danny
Famous Hero
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 12:50 PM |
|
|
I like the ideas about animal units for Haven, BUT with the inclusion of Griffin they kinda made "regular" animals redundant. Both eagles and lions would make sense but the Griffin already aims to combine both. And they probably wouldn't want the humans to be outnumbered (like in Warcraft II both races were in the minority due to other creatures joining their ranks). So I guess I'll just accept that Haven will always be the "constant" of Heroes.
Also, a while ago it was discussed that the new faction might be the humans who still worship the Dragon of Air. I guess that's out of the question, it's unlikely they could come up with another human faction
|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
|
posted November 07, 2010 06:25 PM |
|
|
They won't be, they'll have 4 humans, 1 creature which looks like a human with wings, and then possibly 2 creatures which don't look like humans at all.
I'd count that as 4.5 humans versus 2.5 creatures.
If you disagree with my Angel being "sort of like a human and thus counting for half" it's still 4v3, which is still humans outnumbering non-humans.
I mean ruddy elves were already to elfy with 3 elves, dark elves with 4, dwarves with 6 and orcs with 4 not counting goblins.
Previous heroes games never had more then 1 of the same species per town, with the exception of Knight/Castle/Haven and Necropolis.
Possibly rampart, it had 2 elves, one on foot with bow and one riding a pegasus.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
