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| Thread: a biblical hypothetical |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 ... 20 29 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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del_diablo
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posted March 01, 2011 01:25 PM |
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(Edit: To wit - I can claim I just had the emotion of fear. You know what fear is, you see me respond in a way that would be fear..but I never experienced the emotion. You BELIEVE I did, because that is what you saw, but that is not proof. People can fake emotions, so how can one prove they had a genuine emotion?)
If you never have experienced fear, then you are not "human" per definition. You would suffer something like being a psycophat, or total lack of empathy, because you do not understand something that does not exist to you.
And I can prove you have genuine emotion, by linking some obscure instrument up to your brain, because your brains chermicals can not lie.
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Fauch
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posted March 01, 2011 01:48 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 13:52, 01 Mar 2011.
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If emotions can be faked (ask any actor)..
you mean, faking facial expressions I suppose
from what I know, they aren't easy to fake. most of the time, your chances of success lie in the inability of other people to correctly read your face.
try to fake fear, as you said, I guess it will rather look like surprise. I think many actors do not really fake, if they want to show fear, they will think about something that frightens them, so they REALLY experience fear.
once with my sister, we played at faking emotions, and my sister wouldn't have fooled you even a single second. I found myself incapable to fake disgust, and even anger was hard (everyone would think anger is easy to fake)
some researches tend to show that emotions manifest themselves the same way for everyone (except few exceptions) and aren't independant from culture. of course, it might be the same thing about god, but most people have heard about what god is supposed to be, and so it could just be the result of being conditionned by culture, which seems to not be the case with emotions.
even if we may not prove that emotions exists, from what I know, there are more elements which tend to prove they exists than elements which tend to prove god exists.
what proofs do we have about that? people and books claiming that he exists? and what else?
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ohforfsake
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posted March 01, 2011 03:35 PM |
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@del_diablo
Well the means required of proving the mental capabilities of 3-5 year goes beyond my current ressources. As such, no I don't have any arguments in that matter.
Before you can prove something, you must at least know what this something is.
How is the concept defined?
The reason, as far as I know, that you can't prove the existance of God is that, independent of it may being a man-made concept, it's not defined in any measureable way. Rather used as something beyond mankind.
As such, God have no practical applications.
On the other hand, emotions. I believe emotions in earlier times meant something different than today. Back then, you probably could not prove an emotion, and I suppose it was just a word for a way to describe the world. Much like God.
Today emotions are what we actually can measure, that is how I believe they're defined, unlike back then.
You cannot prove that anyone who isn't you, actually feel the emotions, but the emotions, you can measure, they can be proved. Though maybe the real proof is that what we measure seem to be in order with what the person claims to feel, otherwise, I suppose there'd not be much proof in it after all.
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Fauch
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posted March 01, 2011 04:40 PM |
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that's the point of god, it is beyond everything, so it can be used to justify anything.
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted March 01, 2011 07:37 PM |
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Alright, prove to me beyone a shadow of a doubt that something came from nothing which science says is impossible, BTWs, and that from this little insignificant explosion compaired to the infinate universe that life evolved on a barren and toxic rock, evolving sight, sound, speech, limbs and a body structure beyond that of a gelatinous blob on its own and then I'll join you in your belief that athiesm is only based on proven fact.
I could sit here, spend a few hours producing a summary of how Evolution functions, but I apologise I don't have the time. Go on Wikipedia or some science book to find out what Evolution is if you don't comprehent how every animal evolved from simple bacteria and other organisms (referred to you as blobs).
I was in front myself. I wasted it on doing non-important stuff. Suddenly people at my age actually got interested in succeeding in school. And you know what? People who do their fricking best are probably a harder competition than the guy who knows everything (which was me when I was 16).
What are you doing to stay in front? Or are you just lucky that everyone else is having a tough time while you could resist?
First, can you please specify what you mean by "being in front", and second, in the last sentence are you referring to resisting drugs and alcohol and how I'm doing it? Well I'm too mature and have an independent personality to be following a crowd and even be influenced in the slightest by teenagers compared to whom, I am mentally a 100 year old, let's just say.
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EHM!
Do you have argument against his statement, or are you just nitpicking against generalisation?
Thatks for support del_diablo 
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Ie we are not 'true blooded' humans, but human/evolved monkey mix. Some believe this theory was only made to explain evolutions findings.
Pathetic. I hope the stupid church WILL die out now that there is science that can prove ALL biblical teachings false, which were only fed to the masses of uneducated crowds of peasants before. What's next? The church will defend itself with intelligence-insulting improvisations such as dinosaur corpses being placed into the Earth by god for humans to have fossil fuels, "magical in vitro" a.k.a. Mary being pregnant with Joseph and making up a story of having the child of god and angels talking to her...
IF MARY, JESUS, AND ALL THE DISCIPLES LIVED TODAY, MARY'S DIVINE CAREER WOULD END AT GOING ON "16 AND PREGNANT", JESUS WOULD BE LOCKED UP IN A MENTAL HOSPITAL FOR PROCLAIMING HE'S GOD, AND THE DISCIPLES ARRESTED FOR INGESTING SOME HEAVY HALLUCINATION-INDUCING DRUGS AND DRINKING TOO MUCH ALCOHOL.
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Now, for those who 'Do not believe in anything that can not be proven'..
So I take it you do not believe in Emotion? Ie emotion does not exist? Because even though emotion is accepted by all, it is impossible to PROVE. So therefore..by your logic that only proven things exist, nobody has any emotion..nor have they ever.
hahaha, are you serious? Emotion CAN be proven (wouldn't even imagine anyone could question that). Emotions are attitudes/responses to certain stimuli, they, along with love, hate, sadness etc, are on a chemical level and nothing else. Emotions evolved naturally and are present in all animals, they are just effects of a stimulus (e.g. a herd of antelopes is attacked by a lion, one antelope is killed by the lion, rest run off, the antelopes know lion=death, therefore a response to the sight of lions or to noises result in an emotion FEAR, further resulting in a RESPONSE from FEAR, running away.) Simple really...
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Flush face? (embarrassment, lust, etc) Dilated Pupils? (Fear, anger, etc)..etc can boil down to the bodies 'fight or flight' or mating response. As the body prepares for something INSTINCTUAL (ie not emotionally).
Instinct IS genetically inherited EMOTION, see my antelope explanation above). Emotion is also LEARNED throughout life. You seem to think that emotion is something spiritual and beautiful, in fact it is primitive (can be complex too) but it is still only a mechanism every animal has.
LOVE - can be either learned or instinctual/genetic. Genetic love - a mother loving her babies from birth (essential for survival, because if she didn't love them she'd walk off and they'd all die, simple)
Learned Love - Loving people who are kind to you, have physical and/or mental traits that are attractive to you, you, being a social animal, want to be with them to either be their life partner and/or simply be in a particular friend gruop. However Love IS NOT an "intelligent" feeling, because sometimes people "fall in love with each other" at first sight sometimes, and continue loving each other in spite e.g. one being an alcoholic and beating his wife, his wife will hate him for that, but still her primitive brain aimed at being with a partner and reproducing will tell her she "loves" him.
FEAR - both learned/conditioned and genetic. We genetically fear sudden noise and/or big objects coming at us rapidly (a reflex). E.g. when a car approaches we automatically jump aside while crossing the road, to survive. It evolved from e.g. falling trees, carnivorous animals, other tribes of people killing your village to get your meat etc. It is automatic and we don't think about it. You may also fear being in a dark room, because you experience from horror movies that monsters and murderers may be lurking under your bed (abstract and you know it's unreal, but your self-sustaining mechanism is too strong and doesn't let many people ignore fear). This is conditioned.
EMBARRASMENT - it seems only learned, because it is evident 99% of children until the age of e.g. 5 aren't embarrased of anything. E.g. if a toddler trips over, urinates their pants, or falls from a chair, they aren't embarressed, only may be in pain at most. It is the SOCIETY that finds those situations hilarious and laughs at them (laugh is a stimulus = response of embarrassment)
It is one of the reasons little kids can't keep secrets and can't lie/not tell the truth, it is because they haven't yet learned of the potential consequences of others knowing something they shouldn't and are unaware that pooing themselves in public will result in them being laughed at and ridiculed. A child always will be honest, and without hesitation say "I hate you" or "I don't like you" but not shout it in anger, simply state the truth about their feelings...
@mvassilev - thank you for explaining that emotions are easily proven scientifically so I don't have to 
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what proofs do we have about that? people and books claiming that he exists? and what else?
The pathetic Bible and zounds of humans that are scared of dying. God does NOT exist.
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that's the point of god, it is beyond everything, so it can be used to justify anything.
God doesn't exist. And people made god because it was comfortable, and kept the society functioning, without questioning anything, and of course paying the omniscient priests in fancy dresses. 
GOD=COMMUNISM God (and religion) is a synonym for communism, with an additional chapter of "afterlife".
Communism is a law great in theory, but crap and corrupted in practice, Religion is a law great in theory, but crap and corrupted in practice, AND maiming people that afterlife and god exist, and that following the 10 commandments during their life will pay off after their death (one of the commandments being go to church on Sunday of course and pay for it=mafia) Priests - pay them or go to hell for eternal suffering after death (I bet even Stalin/Lenin wouldn't have came up with such an effective way of manipulating and controlling people)
Religion is a sociological weapon exploiting the fragile and naive human psychology.
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del_diablo
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posted March 01, 2011 08:04 PM |
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OhforfSake:
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@del_diablo
Well the means required of proving the mental capabilities of 3-5 year goes beyond my current ressources. As such, no I don't have any arguments in that matter.
Edit: Now i saw what you replied against.
And if it is only the generalisation you are against, you really have no arguments against it.
Do not worry 
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Fauch
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posted March 01, 2011 08:26 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 20:27, 01 Mar 2011.
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stalin and hitler regurlarly purged the important institutions.
I didn't say that god exists, that doesn't make much sense to me, but it has become very practical for some people.
but the problem isn't exactly god himself, but all the rules and decisions he justifies. it is more important to question them than whether god exists or no. but some people have been so manipulated that as soon as they hear that god wanted something, they think it must be a deadly sin to question it.
but you could as well replace god with communism indeed.
nowaday, you could say capitalism took the place of god for many people as well. there really isn't much difference
for someone who is mentally 100 years old, you are quite arrogant sometimes
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted March 01, 2011 10:18 PM |
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for someone who is mentally 100 years old, you are quite arrogant sometimes
I disagree, can you please give evidence? My feeling of importance isn't exaggerated, it's adequate to who I am. And being arrogant is feeling and claiming to be superior to others, while all I'm doing is yes, criticising, but criticising religion not anyone in particular.
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gnomes2169
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posted March 01, 2011 11:48 PM |
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Alright, prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that something came from nothing which science says is impossible, BTWs, and that from this little insignificant explosion compared to the infinite universe that life evolved on a barren and toxic rock, evolving sight, sound, speech, limbs and a body structure beyond that of a gelatinous blob on its own and then I'll join you in your belief that atheism is only based on proven fact.
I could sit here, spend a few hours producing a summary of how Evolution functions, but I apologize I don't have the time. Go on Wikipedia or some science book to find out what Evolution is if you don't comprehend how every animal evolved from simple bacteria and other organisms (referred to you as blobs).
I think that you may have ignored the first part of this rant... [/nitpick]
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Fauch
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posted March 01, 2011 11:55 PM |
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I disagree, can you please give evidence? My feeling of importance isn't exaggerated, it's adequate to who I am. And being arrogant is feeling and claiming to be superior to others, while all I'm doing is yes, criticising, but criticising religion not anyone in particular.
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Well I'm too mature and have an independent personality to be following a crowd and even be influenced in the slightest by teenagers compared to whom, I am mentally a 100 year old, let's just say.
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Corribus
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posted March 02, 2011 03:39 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 15:40, 02 Mar 2011.
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Admittedly, I haven't known too many centenarians, but my experience is that most people aged 90+ are not in full possession of their mental faculties. Thus comparing your mental state to that of someone over 100 years old may not be the best way to illustrate to everyone how smart you think you are.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Fauch
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posted March 02, 2011 05:29 PM |
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I'm not sure though, people who believe in the existence of the soul would say they have a different perception. their brain is getting weaker, but instead they can perceive some things directly with their soul or something like that. that may just be a different kind of smartness.
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Corribus
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posted March 02, 2011 05:43 PM |
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people who believe in the existence of the soul would say they have a different perception.
Charlie Sheen says he has tiger blood and Adonis DNA. That doesn't make it so.
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted March 02, 2011 05:55 PM |
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I disagree, can you please give evidence? My feeling of importance isn't exaggerated, it's adequate to who I am. And being arrogant is feeling and claiming to be superior to others, while all I'm doing is yes, criticising, but criticising religion not anyone in particular.
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Well I'm too mature and have an independent personality to be following a crowd and even be influenced in the slightest by teenagers compared to whom, I am mentally a 100 year old, let's just say.
Stating a fact is by you considered arrogance?
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Admittedly, I haven't known too many centenarians, but my experience is that most people aged 90+ are not in full possession of their mental faculties. Thus comparing your mental state to that of someone over 100 years old may not be the best way to illustrate to everyone how smart you think you are.
I knew someone would make a misinterpreting comment on this. That was a loose metaphor...but I'm sure you are well aware of that, but simply felt the urge to manipulate my statement to make it look adverse to it's message. Let's pretend I said 60-70 years old to make this more comprehensive.
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gnomes2169
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posted March 02, 2011 09:09 PM |
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Well I'm too mature and have an independent personality to be following a crowd and even be influenced in the slightest by teenagers compared to whom, I am mentally a 100 year old, let's just say.
Stating a fact is by you considered arrogance?
When put like this, then yes. It makes you sound like you are everyone who isn't as mentaly mature as you a child. And trust me, you are nowhere near as mature as you seem to think you are.
I'm not either for that matter. But that would not be anything more than spite if you used it in an argument of your "Maturity" because we are, in fact, talking about you.
[/off topic]
Next question please. 
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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ohforfsake
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posted March 02, 2011 09:25 PM |
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How do you measure maturity?
Edit: It'd be nice to know, because then we would no longer need to link age and maturity.
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gnomes2169
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posted March 02, 2011 09:41 PM |
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How do you measure maturity?
Edit: It'd be nice to know, because then we would no longer need to link age and maturity.
Hmm, Well I'd hope that it would be measured by how strongly we stand for what we believe is right and good in our hearts as well as how well we treat others, but then someone like JJ or Elodin would come out of some crack in the wall, punch me in the face and say "No, child. You are wrong, wrong, wrong. Go spread your foolish ideas in the VW and the Glade like you were told and never return to the OSM."
And then I would be "Immature" and point out that calling me a child only says that they have a different set of morals and values then me. For this, I would most likely be hanged, drown and burned at the stake just because I expressed what I see as a perfectly logical and fair answer.
But now we will never know if I was right, since said posters will no longer throw bible quotes at me and not go through the trouble of correcting me and my idealistic ideals because I did it for them. Oh, and because of spite, yes lots of spite indeed.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted March 02, 2011 10:05 PM |
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And trust me, you are nowhere near as mature as you seem to think you are.
Sorry but a few posts on an internet doesn't provide you with sufficient information about me to judge that. And I know I am as mature as I am. Stating this about me doesn't say well about your analytical skills.
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How do you measure maturity?
Maturity of a person should be approached individually, without prejudice to e.g. age (although there IS an evident correlation between age and maturity, which applies to, say, 80% of people.)
There is undoubtedly an official psychological "scale" and measurement method, with which I am not totally familiar and have my own; to me a few different aspects contribute to maturity (such as empathy, sophistication, responsibility, having a not easily influenced mind, consideration, diplomacy, politeness, respect, independance, and even intelligence to some extent).
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Doomforge
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posted March 02, 2011 10:19 PM |
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that would mean 50% of older Poles are in reality kids 
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JollyJoker
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posted March 02, 2011 10:23 PM |
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How do you measure maturity?
Edit: It'd be nice to know, because then we would no longer need to link age and maturity.
Hmm, Well I'd hope that it would be measured by how strongly we stand for what we believe is right and good in our hearts as well as how well we treat others, but then someone like JJ or Elodin would come out of some crack in the wall, punch me in the face and say "No, child. You are wrong, wrong, wrong. Go spread your foolish ideas in the VW and the Glade like you were told and never return to the OSM."
That's rather funny.
You are wrong.
It would be very immature to say such a thing. The mature thing would be to express forgiving understanding for the errors of your ways and ask you to back your statements up and whether standing for what we believe is right and good in our hearts would more often than not be something we do as children, in youthful and immature rashness, even though we believe crap, while maturity might well mean that we do things because we somehow feel it would be wrong not doing it.
I'd maybe argue that maturity might have something to do with experience and the way people cope with it and accept it as part of their life, as well as being able to keep yourself in check and don't act rash.
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