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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted September 19, 2011 03:11 PM |
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I take great offense to that statement, Blizzard. How dare you insinuate the US Congress wastes its time "masturbating to each other?!" Anybody with any intelligence can see that is a slanderous and ignorant statement. The worst part about your implication is that you would have readers believe that the US Congress has ceased !@#$%^& over the American people and moved on to themselves. How dare you, Blizzard! How dare you!
Fortunately, due to the amount of people on food stamps, at least Congress is buying citizens dinner before !@#$%^& them over.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 19, 2011 03:35 PM |
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Quote:
You're giving the US more credit than it deserves. It has no need to orchestrate some unfathomably complicated (and unrealistic) plot like throwing planes into the WTC in order to attack a country. The president can just send troops in and the Congress sits around impotently with their thumbs up their asses while furiously masturbating to each other. The US hasn't actually declared war through legitimate channels since WW2.
Well, like I said: directing it, might be too much. But allowing it to happen, why the hell not? It boosts their plans, gathers the crowds behind their flag, gives them even more of a reason to go and do what they eventually did.
Admittedly so, it's mere speculation from my part that they could have directed it, because since they were so hell bent on invading Iraq, something like 9/11 was convenient for them. However, even if they did not direct it, they still allowed it.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 19, 2011 04:37 PM |
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gain/loss relations are not working - not even for allowing it.
An event like that, if there was ONE leak, you deal with high treason, the death penalty and a major backlash for the whole system of domestic policies which includes a gton of people making a ton of money.
Any OTHER country - yeah, well, that's Pilatus looking for a handwashing basin.
So, in one word.
No.
NOTHING to gain that couldn't be gained otherwise, and be it bombs in Washington detected, maybe one explosion, somewhere, without much harm.
For Iraq no terror excuse was necessary anyway.
So, again. No. It'a completely unsubstantial.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted September 19, 2011 06:30 PM |
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I did like the South Park idea that the 9/11 conspiracy theories was a government conspiracy.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 19, 2011 06:51 PM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 18:54, 19 Sep 2011.
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You're underestimating the control they have over the flow of information. And you're overestimating the will and ability of the would-be prosecutors (if there's any at all) to bring the traitor to justice.
You see, this is very much bigger than Watergate. Democrats and Republicans are both in it, so there is no strong opposition in USA, except for the masses if they only knew. As you can see, Obama never doubted the events and if it's a lie, he should know. This probably goes beyond USA, and expands to other countries too but that's just speculation from my part again. I remember Blair praying for world peace somewhere, only days before it happened and that makes me think...
With so many powers in unison, it's pretty hard to fight back. Besides, it has been proven already, that the US was warned about the coming attacks but did not act. Isn't this the same as saying that they allowed it?
Perhaps they did not know when and where exactly they were going to strike, but surely they did know how. But come on! It's USA we're talking about, with God knows how many secret intelligence services and networks and all the other spooks they got in their disposal! I find it pretty much impossible for them not to knew exactly when, where and how it was going to happen.
Besides, people did talk. But their voice was not heard through the mainstream media. They were denounced as nutjobs and thrown in the same bunch as wackos with tin-foil hats. Scientists, witnesses, even agents! In blogs here and there, independent new sources but their voice eventually was never heard by the masses, and eventually they were devolved as conspirancy theories, rumors and urban legends.
I can recall a few of them. The thing about the jews that were warned not to go to work this day. Or what about Bin Laden at first saying he didn't do it? That Mohammed Atta was alive and well even though he was one of the hijackers. Witnesses saying they heard explosions before the planes flew in. Agents speak anonymously and saying that no plane ever hit the Pentagon.
You would probably call all that as false rumors that were spread by liars. And I ask you why should the liars be them and not the government's story? It's reasonable to me that the government lies. I mean, come on, everybody knows that all politicians lie! This is just common knowledge.
And why would any other country do it and not the USA? What's so special about the USA? On the contrary, I think USA is doing such things more than any other country.
For example, let me bring up another 9/11. Chile, 1973. It's been proven and admitted by US officials, that the CIA was involved in coup d'etat by Pinochet and the assassination of Salvador Allende. No doubt about that, even Wikipedia will have you know so. This shows you how USA plays the game. They're no saints!
But Chileans weren't their own people, right? So how about all those soldiers that died in wars over profit, such as in Iraq or for God knows what, in Vietnam? A lot of dead there, it teaches that USA does not care to sacrifice their own people in order to get something done.
With these two examples in mind, I think it's perfectly reasonable for USA to at least allow a strike on their soil, so they get a reason and the support above all else, to get what they want.
This is what happened with Pearl Harbor too anyway, right?
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 19, 2011 10:53 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted September 19, 2011 10:55 PM |
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Quote:
Wrong.
If only it were that easy, yer supposed to quote everything then say wrong, it would make it more of a Win  .
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 20, 2011 08:21 AM |
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Unsubstantiated speculations and claims don't need serious answers.
The current historic research on that issue says "wrong". If you are interested above that, make some research yourself.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 20, 2011 08:54 AM |
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Quote:
Unsubstantiated speculations and claims don't need serious answers.
The current historic research on that issue says "wrong". If you are interested above that, make some research yourself.
History is made by the winners if you haven't been told. The "facts" are eligible to change, to suit the needs of the victor. No higher arbitrary power is going to record any historical events, but people who could have a reason to lie just as much as any other.
I never said I'm speculating in the case of Pearl Harbor. There's been a lot of coverage on the subject, from documentaries to articles and even interviews from survivors, who say just that: USA knew the Japanese were coming, but they didn't even bother to say so to the soldiers of that base.
I don't know why people are so willing to believe whatever their government says. As if it's a matter of national pride to defend them against critcism? It's not like I'm criticizing the common American people or America itself.
Well, anyway, whatever. Believe what you may! No reason to argue with someone who doesn't even bother to consider an alternative point of view. It's like trying to convince a christian that there is no god, or vice versa.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted September 20, 2011 08:57 AM |
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You're wrong about pearl harbor.
The us did not know (though many people speculated it). But can you guess who did know? The British
But they just thought "meh" and let it pass.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 20, 2011 09:15 AM |
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Speculations from thid parties with knowledge on the field, yes these could even be dismissed. Though they should be considered as well.
But statements from high ranking officials, that they were trying to get the Japanese to attack or even know that they were going to strike at Pearl Harbor specifically, well, I guess that pretty much proves it, right?
You're in the category "any other country yes but USA no". Why would the British know and not warn them but the USA be all innocent about it? Why would USA be any better than Britain?
Anyway, don't you ever get suspicious. I mean, everyone else was warned at the time to prepare against coming attacks but Hawaii, where soldiers were on leave, anti-aircraft guns unmanned as if we were on a time of peace and tranquility. They were practically inviting them...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 20, 2011 09:16 AM |
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They knew (more or less) but they had little war experience and a long chain of failed communications between the actors lead to a failed proper answer. More of an amateurish approach, than a conspiracy.
Quote:
anti-aircraft guns unmanned as if we were on a time of peace and tranquility. They were practically inviting them...
Because they were at peace. Japan did not declare war before attacking Pearl Harbor.
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Era II mods and utilities
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darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted September 20, 2011 09:30 AM |
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The British did intercept Japanese communications about their war plans.
Also you seem to assume that at that time everyone in the us was expecting the country to go to war and that was not the case.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 20, 2011 09:51 AM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 09:53, 20 Sep 2011.
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Quote:
The British did intercept Japanese communications about their war plans.
Also you seem to assume that at that time everyone in the us was expecting the country to go to war and that was not the case.
Assume? No, it's a fact. Even Wikipedia will have you know so. It's debatable wether or not Americans were provoking a Japanese attack, and it's debatable wether they knew about the specific attack in Pearl Harbor.
However, there's been about a decade's tension between the West (mainly USA) and Japan. And what about the Americans aiding indirectly Philippines and China resistance against Japanese forces? Besides, even President Roosevelt was at least, considering the possibility if not openly talking about going to war with Japan. Specifically he did say something about letting them strike first. And anyway, every other American base in the pacific at the time, had received orders to prepare for a coming attack.
EDIT: Well, not everyone was expecting it. I guess the common people and the soldiers of Pearl Harbor, didn't see it coming...
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted September 20, 2011 09:52 AM |
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I always see Americans as the pre-emtive types 
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 20, 2011 10:07 AM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 10:08, 20 Sep 2011.
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A pre-emptive strike doesn't need to draw blood to be called that. Americans were the first to strike at Japan through other means. Either by aiding the Chinese or by the embargo and any other economic sanctions they made against Japan.
These could also be provocations or you could see them as pre-emptive strikes.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted September 20, 2011 10:15 AM |
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would be understandable & believable if America did the same in Afghanistan against the Russians, I.E trained some malitia to fight them, so that US cannot be held accountable, since they didn't give any 'direct' support.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted September 20, 2011 10:18 AM |
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So, you support the genocidal campaign against the Chinese? Or maybe its just that you have been made to believe that the us is always the ultimate evil, no matter what.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted September 20, 2011 10:18 AM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 10:20, 20 Sep 2011.
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Al Qaeda! Bin Laden was raised and trained by Americans for that reason. To fight against the Soviets at the time, too bad things went astray after that, huh?
Darkshadows: The Hell? When did I say that? If you ask for my opinion, US did well to aid the Chinese back then! What's more, they should have gone there themselves and fight the Japanese, instead of just sending weapons and a few volunteers.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted September 20, 2011 10:19 AM |
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Erm bin laden was CIA and he wasn't trained to fight russians, he was trained to train people to fight Russians  . (he was trained to fight russians but not in the way you put it lol and neither was he trained to train people to fight russians, he was ordered to train people to fight the russians.)
No Idea what the U.S has against loose ends though, it's a real pain in the *** when said loose end up surviving the 'elimination' phase.
But, what do I know, as far as I can tell this is all just rubbish, so let's get back to our safe reality, shall we? 
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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This thread is pages long: 
