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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 09, 2001 03:15 AM |
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yeah jiels you have good points there. 
from one who HAS played HoMM1 and 2 longer than the 3rd one, I kinda question 3do with, "why so many powerful relics? why so easy to get?"
eh, I don't really know. Maybe they DO favor hero development over creature growth ... but I DO know this ... that 3do really tried to make it so that the heroes become DIFFERENT as they develop. In HoMM3, after so much development, the heroes (with relics) are almost EXACTLY identical, with the exception of one like Tazar or Hack.
To be honest, the only reason I favor creature growth over hero growth, is because it's rare, and I like variety
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26) 
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 09, 2001 05:01 AM |
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Find me somebody to play 166 or 200%, no prob. And I am not stupid enough to think somebody would buy 8 Heroes to get a midchance on Lvl4 mightcombo. The 7 Heroes to buy cost 17500. If there aren't any chances to get more than 10.000-20.000 in add to the starting money in first week, you can buy 7 Spys, I will not.
On many(most) ToH maps, somebody is silly, if he don't buy full amount of heroes to spy.
More heroes, better chances for combination.
Your conclusion, that I should look at all ToH maps and will like some, is wrong either. I like ToH maps, I play on them and know how hard it can be with H/R there.
I don't say playing heroes with less money/recources on maps is better or more honorable. I say IF you play with less recources, H/R will not be such overwhelming and don't need to be restricted.
So it's no gamefeature/bug, it's something you trade in for time.
Against the maps I have nothing, they are great for a quik game, but I don't like people crying about GameInherent problems, when there aren't any.
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted December 09, 2001 05:51 AM |
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Edited By: jiels on 9 Dec 2001
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*sigh*
Moon:
First off, I never called you stupid, calm down.
I said you were mistaken, and you still are if you call them spys. 8 hero's means 8-10 fights a turn if done right. Which easily translates into a 15k a turn on most toh maps. Again, if you think I buy 8 heroes for a better chance of getting a good hero or to spy/scout out the map you are mistaken. I, and all the vets I play, buy lots of heroes to chain our army around so we can collect and do as much as possible, as fast as possible!! 1 hero costs 2500 gold, you get on average 2500-3000 gold back for 2 chests. Oh look, my hero I just bought has been paid for in 1 turn. *sigh* That doesn't seem that hard to me.
As to your next point, your right I missed your point, my apologies. Maybe if you would have stated that as you do in this post I may have understood you. Instead you posted crap about cd maps being better. Which in my experience is utter nonsense!
And to address it, on the maps you have mentioned h/r becomes even more powerful! Let me give you an example. I played the Old One on a rndm Xl, we met week 2 day 1. Seeing that he had build his castle towards money I had the advantage in troops and started advancing. 1 step off the road to him was a guarded scroll. It was simply guarded so I figured I would grab it. It turned out to be implosion. I had a knowledge of 4 and spell power of 3, I think. Still when we met I imploded him twice and he surrendered. Now, what I could have done is just kept sending my hero into his zone with a fast creature and imploding/retreating as we were so close. I didn't have to do this but I easily could have. So here we are on a resource limited map, where rndm luck decided our game. :-(
And that's where the no h/r's are coming from, on a resource poor map, anybody that pulls out a lucky scroll, artifact or spell has a supreme advantage because there are not enough ways to counter such a lucky turn of events. If I could only afford to retreat/hit once a week in that last example, I am still killing more of his troops then it's costing me. It's a lot easier to get shackles/recanters or counter on a rich resource map.
And as to that "there are no game inherent problems", are you serious? Have you ever heard of the gremlin rush or spell bug? Sure, they might have been taken care of but there are still game inherent problems. H3 isn't the perfect game (can any game be perfect Moon?). Red day rush is another good example. If all things are equal, a red day rush could easily be what decides the game. I think this is a "game inherent problem", I don't enjoy a loss due to it, especially if there was nothing I could do. (yes, there are always options, I know, but against a better player they won't let me excercise those options )
Did I miss anything Moon? I think we tend to agree on a lot of things, I prefer to play with no rules and play all kinds of maps (look at my record). I just think you need to play in toh a lot more before you start condemning it or the players.
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 09, 2001 09:35 AM |
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I give you right again, the CD maps are in no way fair. But even with the best color, you will have no Chance to buy 8 heroes, build up expensive Lvl7+Castle(citadell) and hire the troops at day1.
I should stop now, before I(we) begin to flame you(us), where no need is for.
ToH maps are great at what they are made for. Super Mains and the big Army battle, as long you rule H/R out.
At moment, that's a lot of fun and if we ever meet us in zone for a game, I am sure we find a map(or random) and a H/R rule or non-rule, we can both live with.
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted December 09, 2001 10:28 AM |
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Moon: I don't want this to turn into a flame war either. You have made some interesting points and good arguments. It as been fun discussing this with you.
Which is why I am surprised that you made this statement:Quote:
ToH maps are great at what they are made for. Super Mains and the big Army battle, as long you rule H/R out.
You just don't seem to understand Moon, it's not like this. That statement depends on who you play in toh. To categorize all toh maps/games like that is, well, stupid. Especially coming from someone who doesn't even play in toh.
You want a game like that? Ask Mocara for a game on 7 lakes or Zsa for a game on the maps he likes. Hell, I just lost on a map like what you described. Week 4 and no one had lvl 7s. Maybe if you would participate in toh you would understand where we are coming from when discuss certain issues. Playing your friends over and over does not compare to toh play. Hard as that may be to understand, it's been true in my, and many others, experience.
Anyways, I'm tired. Good night, I'll look for you in the zone if I am ever free.
jiels (goes to bed)
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 09, 2001 11:15 AM |
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Quote:
ToH maps are great at what they are made for. Super Mains and the big Army battle, as long you rule H/R out.
this season so far I've played the most ToH maps ... because I was on (and still am on) a quest to play ALL the ToH maps.
From my observations of the 39 maps I've played (30 of them randomly chosen), about 40% of ToH maps are what you have described above.
Any map that has an unguarded pandora's box that gives you 8,000 exp, basic logistics, and +2 to all skills ... is quite obviously centered around a Super Main.
there are two types of ToH maps: open maps and closed maps. In closed maps, H/R is more devastating (because of greater hero development).
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 09, 2001 11:25 AM |
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hmmm .. the more I think about it ... moon is correct in that:
one states what one observes ... right?
if so, then moon has stated that from what he sees, all ToH maps are super-main maps. As stated before, I find it's about 40% of the maps ...
HOWEVER, when I look / investigate on the "popular" maps ... the ONLY "popular" map that DOESN'T fit moon's description is bfh (battle for honor).
therefore, I must agree with moon. ToH players seem to LOVE these maps. As for me, I've grown ill of them. It changes the strategy of winning into a strategy of developing. And ... the strategy of developing I'm kinda bored of. . :|
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 11, 2001 08:57 AM |
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Quote:
You want a game like that? Ask Mocara for a game on 7 lakes or Zsa for a game on the maps he likes. Hell, I just lost on a map like what you described. Week 4 and no one had lvl 7s. Maybe if you would participate in toh you would understand where we are coming from when discuss certain issues. Playing your friends over and over does not compare to toh play. Hard as that may be to understand, it's been true in my, and many others, experience.
Anyways, I'm tired. Good night, I'll look for you in the zone if I am ever free.
jiels (goes to bed)
I am participated, but no games till now. I have to take any AB-Game, I find in Zone, because my RoE (Yeah, it is 1.4) doesn't function there. Till now I couldn't find a ToH member willing to play AB or over IP.
But there are still a few month till HoMM4, so I am sure, I will get my chance.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 12, 2001 12:47 AM |
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Moon
Alot ot the CD maps it is entirely possible to get 8 heroes and 7th level. Many of them are as generous with chests or even more, with extra mines which you can grab then sell resources from. Also all the neutral towns, many maps you can get 4+ towns week 1.
A few of the smaller CD maps that might be difficult, but only on a few of them. The only CD maps where you might not make 7th level week 2 latest are those with only very few mines or neutral towns, not many of those really. The one thing that ToH maps add is many utopias and relic artifacts relatively easy to get.
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted December 12, 2001 05:58 AM |
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Moon I agree with you half way.
The CD maps are better because they are made by people who sought to balance the positions in a beautiful and strange way.
Truly they have failed in balancing these for multiplayer mode.
Some of the maps they made are truly cool (all for one, emerald isles, divided loyalties,etc) but they need some serious edits.
In heroes 2 Alkis,Prometheus and myself were on the oracle maps team and we would discuss ad infinitum how to balance a CD map for tournamnet play.
Alkis would literally spend days testing balances only to have a player say the typical "Why does he have a dragon cave when I don't" or whatever.
Of course the map was truly balanced but was it balanced in a way that even a novice player could see? No way.
Balance without mirroring is incredibly difficult to do and as most online players do it recreationally and are not "experts" then the most played maps will be those that anyone could see was balanced. For example Battle for Honor.
ToH has some great maps and it is important not to blame toh for what the people choose to play.
Fire War Campaign, Beltway, Seven Lakes, Spellbound and many of the CD maps (edited) come to mind (although the old non-fixed version of spellbound is on the site sadly).
I find it ironic that in these mirror maps that people play so all will be fair are completely unbalanced by these silly random relics.
Moon I agree with you that ToH has become a league full of silly 5 relic wielding heroes but that is no fault of the league and there are a LOT of players like wiggy,maxym,prometheus,3lionshield(where is he anyway?),Frank and myself who prefer a more understated version of the game.
Add me to your friends list Moon, after you join ToH so we can play.
-Mocara
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 12, 2001 11:14 PM |
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Quote:
ToH has some great maps and it is important not to blame toh for what the people choose to play.
Fire War Campaign, Beltway, Seven Lakes, Spellbound and many of the CD maps (edited) come to mind (although the old non-fixed version of spellbound is on the site sadly).
I find it ironic that in these mirror maps that people play so all will be fair are completely unbalanced by these silly random relics.
Moon I agree with you that ToH has become a league full of silly 5 relic wielding heroes but that is no fault of the league and there are a LOT of players like wiggy,maxym,prometheus,3lionshield(where is he anyway?),Frank and myself who prefer a more understated version of the game.
Add me to your friends list Moon, after you join ToH so we can play.
-Mocara
Surely I will add you. Immediatly, I am ToH-member. (Only have no games. Had one yesterday, but we lost connection and then Zone was down)
I didn't blame ToH for anything. Ves and others do a great job for us HoMM players. All I tried to say is that H&R isn't a gameinherent problem(for me), as 1. day rush is.
My prefered towns are Stronghold and Fortress, I have no probs to play no H&R, if that pleases my enemy.
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Lord_Dragon_...
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 13, 2001 04:04 AM |
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Solmyr is good for hit and run. I pick him.
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- Lord_Dragon_Knight_Hero63
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted December 13, 2001 05:04 AM |
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ToH maps
Well ya, what moon said and Moc ephasized is pretty much true. I don't understand what's all the hubub about those relic filled maps. And another thing, where is the managing of RESOURCES in those maps??
I don't know WHY some people play those maps so often but hey, I respect the them, only I don't play them so often. I play a relic map form time to time, but rarely - if u play them from time to time, u won't get so sick of them .
Still my vote is still defenetly going to random and open maps .
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jex
Known Hero
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posted December 13, 2001 05:30 AM |
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Quote:
Still my vote is still defenetly going to random and open maps
I dont understand this statement.
Lots of open maps are full of relics. DangerZone for example. Me vs You has a couple. Survivior has utopias on it. Instanity has relics on it too. Crimson and Clover has 3 relics on it, including the tomb of air! Seven Lakes has relics on it as well. The whole battle for power series has utopias.
And randoms are even worse for having a crap load of relics. I played some randoms where I have done 3 utopias in one turn. Randoms have the potenial to be have more relics then any toh closed map, except maybe hgxl. Also on randoms it can be tough managing resources sometimes, but not all the time. On some randoms, I have built 2 castles to angels week1 b4. Or in other games i have 5-6 castles b4 the end of the first week, not hard to manage resources in this case.
So what you really mean is you stick to bfh, battle royale, The Last Battle, Boomerang, Bound by Strength, and a couple of others I missed.
Dont make it sound like only closed maps have relics on them.
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 13, 2001 11:50 PM |
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almost ...
on an open map that has relics, you can attack / invade before anyone can get those relics. Also known as: get him while your ahead, instead of having to wait 2 weeks to be able to get past 15 titans ... meanwhile opponent gets his utopia.
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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Twinklebone
Tavern Dweller
Opus Dragonia King
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posted December 14, 2001 01:28 AM |
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hit and run
hit and run, no 4th, 3rd level heroes, no logistics and..and..and........
some ppl should better play with barbie-dolls !!
it's only a game and may the better wins :-))
greetings,
twinklebone
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted December 14, 2001 03:56 AM |
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Thank you Wiggy, that's basically it .
But Jex has a point there - not all maps are relic free .
However the majority of them, and the most played open maps are either relic free or both opponents have the same chance in reaching it - in this case it is not LUCK!!.
Half of the maps u listed do not fit the Relic map profile but I'm not going to go into detail - too much . But yes, you are right, I shouldn't generalize, my apolagies .
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 14, 2001 04:07 AM |
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Even without relics...
You can always argue luck about something- maybe one guy gets Res and CL in his guild, other guy gets Sorrow and Water Walk. Relics are the worst when there are only 1-3 relics randomly available, the more relics usually the more it balances out, just as the more guilds the more it balances. However, how to put enough relics in the map without making the map x-large and take a few days to complete? You can't in my opinion. There is really no point anyway, why not just leave major arties in, Sword of Hellfire or Shield of the Damned is as much as you need for a really nice bonus to find.
Any arty can be lucky or unlucky to get... gloves compared to +3 mana per turn? Ugh. Just the starting heroes also... some Castle gets only undead heroes, while the Tower gets almost all the +350 gold hero and +1 gem.
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JTL
Hired Hero
King of Tossers
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posted December 14, 2001 04:59 AM |
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Boy...this is a long meaningless post. That's all But feel free to b*tch and moan about H&R or whatever else beat ya in the game :-)
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Wow...it says I could use BB code here..but not HTML... I got no clue what that means
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jex
Known Hero
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posted December 14, 2001 05:41 AM |
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Quote:
Boy...this is a long meaningless post. That's all But feel free to b*tch and moan about H&R or whatever else beat ya in the game :-)
Ok I will then. BAD LUCK!!!! Arghhhh!!
My opponent tells me has long fight. I ask what he is fighting. He sayz the Biggest utopia. I concede or atlest should have. 3-4 turns ago I did my utopia, the smallest, black orb woo hoo.
Hard to suck more then this.....
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