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Jex
Known Hero
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posted April 26, 2001 10:30 PM |
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an add-on to earlier post
I tryed to edit my original post and made it to the edit screen than it didnt recognize my username and Id 
This was supose to be added into my post about your 'total tactics'
Sure we elimanite 2 tactics by playing our way.
1. Using hit and run
2. Defending against hit and run.(which as Mo pointed out in his story, is generally just sitting on your castle waiting for your opponent to come to you. *Yawn* i dont need a human opponent to sit here and pressing the 'E' key than waiting 10 minutes and pressing it again. Thats too exciting for me. I know there are other tactics used in defending against h&r, but sitting and waiting is the most commonly used one and very effective)
I believe the real tactics begin when you enter a battle screen and stay there for more than a round. it is simple I know you guys can fight against computers, but fighting a close battle against a human is another story.
The only spell that gets cast doesnt always do damage.
Ok I listed how many tactics we elimanite by not using H&R. How many do you elimanite??
Lets see, after you hit and run a person to death... the game is over you used one spell, one tactic.
Hmmm if you actually fought him, you would have used that expert water magic skill, maybe used archers to shot his troops, maybe waited with your creatures, or used the first aid tent, or creature abilities like dragon's spray, unicorn's blind,etc or your expert beserk spell....etc..etc
The list goes on and on. And you call yourselves total tactics players by elimanting all these tactics???? that makes sense
So you are definitely NOT TOTAL TACTICS people!!!!
You play with half the game. Not the better half in my opinion 
JEx
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 26, 2001 11:26 PM |
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!
Jex, you make confusions and confusions....total tactics means they allows all tactics of the game, hit and run also, not that they play only with HIT and RUN. No sense.As I remember I played Mocara and Prometheus a couple of times and hit and run never came. It was just a possibility.That's how several people enjoy the game, as much as you do (without doubt) playing with rules.
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 12:45 AM |
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A good point
Nice post with a good point Sal. Very true words.
I guess I just havent played enough games with no rulez where it didnt end in the beginning of the game where I got a slow town. As I said b4 these types of games have never been enjoyed by myself.
Jex
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 27, 2001 07:09 AM |
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Jeet Kun Do
I spent most of life learning how to fight.
Real life fights.
Was a tiny kid with a big mouth from a poor home so used to get picked on a lot and would mouth off and get beat up DAILY!!
Anyway at some point I grew up and reallized fighting on the street was going to get me killed. Plus it was against everything I learned from my Shihons.
After getting several black belts THAT WERE WORTHLESS!!! everytime I got into a fight at a club I reallized most dojos teach TV style martial art's because it sells memberships and my friends who had been ultimate fighting less than a year could all beat my ass.
So I abandoned fancy kicks for arm bars and choking people out and other not so fancy looking tactics. Also I took up boxing with my golden gloves friends. I had always laughed at them before but for sport fighting boxing is great and as I said I'm past the point of fighting jerks at clubs and on the street.
Anyway if anyone is still reading this stupid boring book it IS leading somewhere.
A few years ago I was jogging in a park and 3 skinheads jumped out of a car w/ballbats. First one swings at my head and I duck and automatically assume a fighting posture. Surveying the situation I think to myself "Get in between those 2 trees and they can't swing on you. Trap one of their arms under my bat and strip the bat and we got ourselves a good fight." All this in an instant of course.
The second guy swings at my legs. I turn to take it on the calf where it will not hurt and when I did I thought about my son and took my best option.
I ran.
They caught up with me but I was under an enclosed porch and picked up a chair and speared them with it.
While they were down I ran and got away.
I lived.
We found out where they lived and some of my friends from the dojo took them out in the woods and scared them to where we think they wouldn't do that again.
At least I hope they never did.
That was not revenge either. It was needed to protect other people.
Anyway I hate telling personal stories on here but when you are calling people names for running from unwinnable fights I think the only word I can come up with is ALIVE.
Maybe I should have not have been so COWARDLY but I will always run from a fight if I cannot win. Otherwise I would just be stupid and dead.
And now I'm stupid and alive :-)
-Mocara
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Maxym
Known Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 06:46 PM |
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To Jex...
about your cowards post. well you may think only cowards run, but in my opinion its more complicated then that.
If we have to settle for a simple explanation it would be only IDIOTS fight a battle they cannot win, when avoiding it can bring a victory.
It's very easy to be "Honorable" and stupid and wast the lives of your troops in front of a computer screen. But make those decisions in real life like Moc. Maybe reading "Shogun" could help you see a war as more then just meeting of 2 armies.
If the tactical combat is all you value then maybe CoW-like tournament is more for you. Fortunately HoMM also requires strategy and both being ready to use and counter all weapons in your opponent's arsenal requires strategy. And from your posts it's becoming more and more apparent you just don't have what it takes to play like that.
Oh and one more thing, there is no such thing as "total tactics", there are tactics and there are tactics dumbed down by rules.
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Prometheus
Adventuring Hero
Knight of the Oracle
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posted April 27, 2001 06:54 PM |
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Great story Mocara. Yep they put surrender in the game for a reason. Its a fair, real and sometimes most intelligent option. I was just remembering an old game we played on spellcasters (H2). I marched into your Necro zone and you had dug the UA. I marched on anyway because I needed to be certain of your strength to do any further planning. We both knew I was dead if i stayed and fought. I forked over every penny in the king's vault to surrender, used my speed to gather artifacts as quickly as I might to try to match the UA, avoiding your hero, running from your hero all this time and then, when I felt I had a good chance in a fight, we had a great battle which I squeaked out. Cowardly? if the reader likes to call it that then ok.
So some might argue that the game was unfair from the beginning because I had Phoenix against bone dragons. And yes, it was. The game is unfair to everyone because there is a way to win from every position and every situation. The question is do you have the will to determine the method and the skill to execute the plan. Sometimes it is a matter of odds. Sometimes skill. Do you accept the challenge or do you reject the need to go beyond the effort you expect? Sometimes I lack the will. These are the games I lose. Sometimes I am simply outplanned as a game in H3 when Mocara smoked me with a logistics hero, or recently when Salamandre took the center very early in Spellbound. These games I also lose.
Anyway keep posting here whatever your view is! I for one enjoy these discussions!
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(Prometheus is a league commentator and Heroes veteran who is best known as the only player who has actually been dismissed by his own HEROES)
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3lionshield
Hired Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 08:09 PM |
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I have never seen the hit and run tactic used as a planned primary attack, its too risky expensive and is not a good game plan.
As far as having fun on the battlefield goes...The really good long battles that I have been involved in usually are alot more fun than the short ones- anything over 10 rounds I would say is long. But by the same token I really really hate being massacred in 3 rounds by someone with superior EVERYTHING. I would much rather be hit and run on than be a victim of that. (*%#@%%)
I do not have any problems with people using any and every means available to them to win games.
BUT I can say that battles DO NOT happen like this. 3do should fix the surrendur/retreat feature. Like when a creature flees-you have option to persue him... should be the same / or similar for heroes-maybe a race to the castle or whatever but you shouldn't be able to just disappear the way the game allows now.
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 09:13 PM |
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I fully agree with 3lion, there is nothing more stupid than having two huge armies meet with one having an advantage and being massacred for no reason. Yeay, how fun is that, i am a great tactician, look at me move my 8 blacks vs his 4. There is nothing like my superior battle tactics skills. 
I rather be hit and run upon all game long as a primary tactic than see that opponent got lead with good arts or joiners or spells and just call it a game, cause now it is time for our big battle which I would lose for sure. This to me sounds like total IDIOCY, not some great game play and certainly not fun at all.
In all my time in TOH I think I only hit and run someone 3 or 4 times, only because they were asking for it. There is nothing cheaper in the whole game (except day 1 red castle attacks) than getting an advantage and marching around the battlefield with no worries knowing that you already won and having low speed creatures. Then these people complain about "cheap tactics". All I can say to that is that you shouldn't have played like a moron and watched your back, knowing that I can hit and run them.
Even though I don't like to hit and run and do only when necessary, I think the anti-hit and run argument presented here is retarted. Your guys whole base is that you like to have one big battle to be satisfied with the game. That is obviously not what heroes is about and not what makes it so interesting and I don't know why you even bother playing it with that mentality. There are many exciting "shooter" games out there which would be much more fun for you.
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Maxym
Known Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 09:19 PM |
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LOL
LOL LOL
good one P /
i thought it was just one more post against rulemakers till I got to the shooter games. LOL
BTW i used to hate shooter games till I found Unreal Tournament and i play it once in a while, mostly because me addicted younger bro leaves it connected all the time and I can't resist a quick round which usually turns out not to be so quick, nor just a round
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 09:44 PM |
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good arguements
Good posts
I totally agree that hit and run is highly effective, or else we wouldnt even be discussing this.
I am not going into how I personally view the hit and run actions again. I just did that to show you guys why newbies would call you names. I know the first time someone hit and ran me to death I felt very robbed and cheated. And I couldnt believe that this person was actually enjoying using this tactic.
As for personal experiences of being a coward, I can list an example of that myself. Maybe that is why I like to stand and fight in the game. Because it is not real life and I dont haveta worry about waking up in the hospital the next day
Phantom: I never said the game has to end in one fight. I have retreatted/surrendered in the middle of fights, when I feel I still have a chance. I have had some very good games where it didnt end in just one combat.
Actually my favorite game of all time had about 3 or 4 battles that each lasted a long time. I think we played bfh for about 10 hours that day, 6 of those hours were in the fight screen. This was the first game I realized if I wanted him to stop from ressing his creatures I had to step on the bodies
I dont think I am not going to change any of your opinions, as you guys are starting to sway me a little. But it always boils down to a matter of enjoyment. I have never enjoyed a game where I outplayed my opponent, but he has the fastest creature and I lost cause of it. In these games the only tactic used was hit and run, that is why I dont see you guys as total tactics players.
Cheers
Jex
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 09:59 PM |
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Oh one more thing
Damn I wish I could edit my posts i always forget to put stuff in em....and the typos
I can agree with you guys beening brave and beening an idiot are basically the same thing
I dont always go kill myself either. I often do run from a fight if I am not prepared or I cant win. Or there are other options to consider/do like drawing his main hero away, than trying to steal their main castle. Dont get me wrong I try to win too.
I think some of these posts are a little off the topic, we were talking about hitting and running. You seem to be discussing normal strategies that I use to.
Jex
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maxym
Known Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 10:15 PM |
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post editing...
Jex...
you are writing from home and are logged on to the community? Coz if you are not logged on then you cannot edit.
I am posting from work and i am not sure i can log on properly here and I can never edit at work, but I can when I log on from my home comp.
Good to see you are considering changing your ways a little, seems sll you need is one game where you stop a H&R dead in its tracks and then H&R yourself a bit
I said it b4 i play with no H&R rule a lot myself, but i have had a lot of great games with multiple (3+) main battles and many of those games involved H&R. ANd i am not counting H&R in those 3 battles. I mean 3+ full fledged battles usually interspersed with succesful defnces against H&R by both sides.
Those games are really fun and having to come up with better and better H&R setups/defences in one game a real challenge.
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 10:18 PM |
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I think both sides can finally strive towards peace now knowing that the game is not just for one battle.
As for "shooter" games, I am glad to say that I play mostly heroes now, because I was the fastest shot in those games till my hands started twitching. Plus shooter games are no good for smoking and drinking with so I am glad everyone here enjoys this relaxing heroes game now, even though some of us might get a little too intense over it. At the end, it's all in good fun.
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted April 27, 2001 10:39 PM |
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lol
Relaxed heroes game??
I like the 2 minute turn games, that aint very relaxed. But alot of fun. And it is the only way to play seen maps. Cause there is no need to play strategy, because a person has played the maps sooo many times.
As for the shooters they are alot of fun. When you get together with friends and like 4 or 5 cpus networked together. It is alot of fun when you can look over at his face when you shoot him in the back
I rarely play them now tho.
As for the hit and run games you played Max. It sounds like you have had alot of fun. So it interests me, but I usually only seen h&r games where there is no defense against it. And this does happen.
I usually never make rulez when I play a random map, as there are lots of ways to defend against hit&run than. But in these 'mirror' maps people have played using h&r before and know how to use it very very effectively. And too many times have I seen where it turns into a waiting game.
Jex
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted April 29, 2001 07:15 PM |
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I remember
Pro I recall that game very well.
In fact I recall all of our games that well.
I remember when I first started playing you I always thought I had you down because I would always outbuild you and get better stats.
Then I'd lose the game because you would have better movement and faster creatures.
After a while I didn't even both building anything unless it was faster than what you had.
If I started out in warlock and you were sorceress I'd build the statue and go look for sorceress town to build.
Dragons were no good against your bag of tricks.
In short we played cat and mouse and learned to count logistics and set traps and all sorts of skills which I never get to use on these mirror maps.
Now there are shackles, resistance, immunity artifacts and tons more tricks that make hitting and running 50 times harder.
So get back here and play with me!!!!
-Mocara
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted April 30, 2001 04:02 PM |
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In an earlier post i stated i'd likely still be playing heroes in one form or another when i was 80 , i'm wondering if i'll also be reading this same arguement on hit and run Certainly if its anyone's goal to convert all players to their way of thinking i will be!
This is an interesting thread to follow, some good stories and opinions coming from both sides , tho i have taken to skimming quickly thru anywhere someone opts to call another person's way of thinking 'retarded' or another person cheap or cowardly.
I think that to 'win' in this arguement the best you can hope for is not to sway all who play to your point of view, but simply to open your mind to other people's opinions, instead of clinging to the idea that you are right and anyone who does not share your feelings must then be wrong.
I think i read here somewhere that if all agreed on everything it would be boring (sorry im too lazy to search for where i saw that and quote it exactly ) And i fully agree with that statement, maybe victory in this war of words goes to those who can agree to disagree, and still maintain a respect and understanding for each other, and for their different views.
"Can't we all just get along?"
-Rodney King
Good Luck and Have Fun!
Pandora
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 01, 2001 12:01 PM |
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Rodney King
Nice Rodney King quote Pan-da =)
That was a perfect example of where one speedy unit (Rodney was reportedly on PCP at the time) got caught by a much larger army (police) due to the shackles of war (handcuffs).
Now was that the Ogre's Club of Havoc they were beating him with?
I can't recall :-)
-Mocara
P.S. Jiels my above comments were in no way a slam on Charles Dickens =)
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 02, 2001 06:53 PM |
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I may say HIT AND RUN is thing which I use often.
This is WAR, not KNIGHTS CHAMPIONSHIP.
It's BAD and that's why it's called BAD.
ALL YOUR HIT AND RUNS ARE BELONG TO US!
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Mystery
Famous Hero
Hatebreeder
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posted May 02, 2001 07:42 PM |
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H&R
I think there is nothing bad in H&R since its a strategty like all others which can be stopped unlike cheats which really give an ultimate advantage, the same as the Japanese army used kamikaze pilots to run into american warships and aircrafts so there is the weak and fast heroes in HOMM which cast a spell and escape. People who use hit and run, disable tactics only for themselves and not for others, and think about it: the HOMM AI includes H&R, so that even the developers count this as a strategic tactic, and not only that H&R is a tactic but also defending against it requires strategy.
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D3@th t0 Fals3 m3Tal!
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2001 03:20 AM |
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honour
I will define honour as that of generally ensuring that your opponent as having the chance of winning of at least that of what was before the game, conventionally agreed, and when this cant b done, count the game as aborted if your opponent wishes. For example, say in a game u discovered that u had an outdated version of the map which added just 1 extra art. You should inform your opponent. If he now agrees to play on, then doing so wouldn’t count you as unhonourable; its as though this new convention ,that of playing an outdated map, will be one he would have agreed to prior to the game.
A peculiar situation may arise whereby what was conventionally agreed may b disputed as whether its really so. For example, on criss cross, certain people may not know that its possible to purchase heroes on ally’s side. I usually will tell/remind newbies of these, but others in my situation may just say that its their fault that they do not know this advantageous possibility. In such cases the question will be: do you regard this ‘knowledge’ as to be expected, and hence the chance is still ‘equal’ at the beginning of the game, just that your opponent did the stupid thing of not utilising the advantage, or whether you regard this knowledge to be rare and not informing your opponent will count as not ensuring the 50% chance its conventionally agreed upon(Not taking into account of skill level yet) to win.
Another example will be a case I had encountered. My famous (but I will list him as anonymous here) opponent and I agreed to no hit n run, specifically defined as defender not surrendering before round2, and that we have to have cast the same number of magic before surrendering/retreating. Then in the game, a battle ensued where by both rules were abided upon, and yet he still claims that its hit and run(bp,pk and you all may judge whether it is or not;Jinxer agreed that the sole criterion of not hit and run will be having both players having cast the same number of magic, while jb’s was that it technically wasn’t hit and run, not to mention that I had lost 4 of my 5 dragons in the battle). We played on and he lost.
Thereafter a huge quibble ensued, and he even got it discussed in the zone and kept calling me unhonourable(???) If the question of honour were to be raised, it will be: Have I decreased his chances of winning, that is, by agreeing to the rule(s) and hence limiting his plan by excluding that possible option of his doing the same thing I did or that I have simply agreed and abided to the rules he himself suggested and yet he is now just whining. In any case, after he seemed so insistent, for whatever reason that that was hit and run, I gave him the benefit of the ‘undoubt’ and told him to not report.
As a sidenote, he still calls me unhonourable despite we both not reporting that game(!@#$!).
Ya..the main points..you may then ask, say in gambling, where u have only 20% odds of wining, or that in a game, with you having sea captain’s hat as the relic, wouldn’t your chances be reduced? But the chances of wining in these cases were conventionally agreed prior to the game; in a 2diced game of whether the total will be 7and above or not, if 1die were to have stopped at 6, you cant argue that the remaining game is decided by that the remianing die hav to be judged on whether it is 1-3 or 4-6, to give you an equal chance, since the game is in process now; prior to it, both parties have agreed and honoured the convention.
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