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Mr_Shane
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 05:25 AM |
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come now
surely there is no need to get worked up and get angry at other people over a little glitch in your favourite game?
I think that the best things to do regarding this hit and run thingy is
1) start thinking of ways to combat it
2) stop playing people who use it
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 05:32 AM |
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Jex
Please consider that you seem to basically be saying you only like to win or lose in a certain manner on your terms. How kind is it to restrict a player from some ability they have to kill you since you might be able to accumulate forces better? This basically amounts to point grubbing as so many people accuse hit and runners of. I am not saying it isn't perfectly ok to play someone with the same set of standards as you like, but to require it of people strikes me as very inflexible. Also, if they come to TOH with a problem about and interpretation of what is hit and run or no dip or all the other extras people like to use to avoid losing in some particular fashion, the only rule is "no grail structure building" and that is it.
I been demolished by hit and run in my limited play and have never actually played with it to win a game. When I lose to it, well I lose. They outdid me is all there is too it. It sounds like you were angry that your opponent was insecure enough as to think he needed hit and run against you above. Sounds like he wanted to make sure he won the game and is that a problem?.....wanting to make sure to win? It seems you are trying to insure that to some degree for yourself.
I try to figure out ways to not let hit and run happen and when I win it is a very good feeling to overcome this tactic. Sadly you may never experience that because your frustration with the tactic has resulted in you trying to stop it by using forces outside the world of the game. It is a great feeling to take a win under such circumstances. One of my largest reasons for opposing this tactic is because it often works to a players advantage who is being hit and run on. If you do pull up and art or cloak or something and especially shackles they were not expecting they go down even quicker than they were expecting to take you out. I hate this tactic especially on a map when there are shackles because you will never have the chance for them to hit and run on you so you can swipe some arts or possibly leave them without their best hero.
The big brawls are very fun indeed as you mention, but they can be very very unfair and unforgiving as well, which Mocara illustrated very well above.
Take care everyone and let's do please enjoy the game and our arguments here. You all have some good thinking going on which is nice to see even if we might choose to differ on our points of view of the current discussion.
-dEth8
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 30, 2001 07:06 AM |
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AACCKK!!!
I know I said I wouldnt offer my opinion any more but I cant stand it!!
It SICKENS me that Mocara and Deth keep refering to hit and run as an ability or a talent! Hit and run takes NO talent at all. NONE!! You guys keep trying to make it sound like some profound intelligence to use such a tactic. I could start the game with 1 Arch angel and Implode and not even have town or any other heroes and my Opponent could have double Fortress or Double Necro or DOuble Rampart and have Hordes of men and stats that are twice mine and I could still win the game. Now please someone tell me where is the talent in that Where O Where is the greatness in ability to pull off such an ingenious tactic. My grandma could do a hit and run having never played the game!
So if you guys are going to insist on defending this tactic that is your right but PLEASE quit calling it an ability or talent or smart thinking. No offense to Mocara or Deth, just voicing my opinion  It is just like listening to people try and tell everyone that 2+2=5 and you honestly believe that it does = 5. Just kinda frustrating to not beable to get you to see that the real answer is 4.
Anyways as for the issue that 3do has never called it a glitch. Dont forget that this game was not designed for tournament play. It was designed for 2 people to play over modem and screw around and play silly games. In a tournament atmosphere, with all the actual Talent that is in the tournament Hit and Run is just not logical.
Peace!
btw. Jex I am glad you know 2+2 = 4 ( hehe )
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 08:28 AM |
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that sounds like a fun game
Jinxer, I am up for no hit and run and you have to hit and run all you can. I would like to finish that game we started with these guidelines since we never ran into eachother yet. I think I still have it stuck away somewhere. We can report back how it goes here
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted March 30, 2001 09:20 AM |
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And right on cue the anger comes just as soon as it was stated that the thread was very intelligent.
Nice points Deth but be careful not to violate the new 'no book' rule :-)
2+2 only equals 4 because we have an agreed upon system that says it is. Math was created by man to make sense of the world. Sort of like rules are created by players to make the game make sense to them.
As far as grandmas go mine was also a master at hit and run :-) but she also taught me that the only people who get angry and defensive are those who have reason to be.
Was that short enough for ya Jex?
-Mocara
P.S. I really enjoy reading all your books :-)
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 09:51 AM |
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aaack!! number two.......You rang?
[[**first and formost** I have never won a game with hit and run and I have been killed by the tactic. Thus, I think I have at least a somewhat unbiased approach to the tactic since it has never been a personal gain to myself. I defend the people using it because it is a valid technique.
I seek to do my best to defend against H&R if the other player has the good fortune of being dealt the ability to use it. Ability being right circumstances along with technical grandma power. If I lose, I lose doing my best and having a good time trying to figure something out to defend. If it is certain death, then I concede as is to be expected in any game.]]
Now that I just read your post Jinxer, I will play you that other game you mention (my previous post was in regard to Mocara's mention of a game) and I believe you will lose with your grandma hit and run tactic. Especially if you played someone the caliber of most of our top players.
Let's indeed finish our game or start another one since I knew HG maybe better at the time...definitely not now though. Not that I won't just flat out lose regardless of arts or any tactic cause I suck, but it would be fun to give it a whirl. Make it real and test your theory there.
You take that starting arch angel and pound myself and Franko and others and you make a much better point. Oh, hope you get implode in some castle too cause banking on getting that can be a deadly risk....and of course your Arch Angel is out of luck if you only have a single castle town or combo of other low level spell castles since you are never getting implode. Still arma is wonderful.....ooops gonna have to slaughter your own hero on that. Wonder if that is why the castles don't get implode ever maybe? Point is that hit and run combination is plenty of luck much like a good set of artifacts from a utopia or all kinds of other luck events that can sometime or maybe even often times lopside a game.
If I read your statements trying not to be influenced by who you are it sounds mostly like you are trying to protect your record cause you don't want to have an upset in a well planned out game. Thus, you must continue to proclaim certain things are not allowed to rally others who don't like getting pounded to a good deal of luck. Againl, to be consistent with this liking to ban lucky upsets I am baffled as to why you do not rule out Utopias also. This rule making comes intirely from not wanting to lose the game and being fearful someone will outluck you if hit and run is allowed in my opinion. People like to hide behind this real bias and use supporting words like cheap and lame, etc. etc. to convince players not to kill them like this if they get the chance. I think the table can be turned and cheap players might be those who want to limit people's options so they don't lose to something they find discomforting. Either we allow luck options or we remove them all. I would prefer that consistency myself.
Hmmm....I bet some "no hit and run" imposing folks out there have also required other stipulations like no dip and 4level heroes and jazz like that too. That seems to have fallen by the wayside in light of hit and run recently though.
Now a more serious question Jinxer, how many times have you actually lost to hit and run? Or have you always ruled it out? If you don't then how many times have you ever lost to it? I think a great test of this talk is that you play the top 5 ranked players in a couple of popular maps and they don't have the option of using hit and run and you must use it if you get the chance. My prediction is you will not win with hit and run too much. If you think this is bad addition then break out some data and the statics prove your point. Next post needs to be after the games show some statistical evidence imo. Enough jesticulation on player preferences for losing conditions. Let's see how lopsided things really are when the win/loss data rolls in.
-dEth8
Dang, I guess never mind Jinx. I just looked back at your last post. You ruled out all the bad luck of the chances that you will never even get implode in the first place by stating you get to start with it and with a castle that never gets it too. Sounds like more rigging to me. Well, however you would like to do things from here is fine.
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 09:55 AM |
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oooopss....sorry
Sorry, don't read the book above. I didn't know we were creating new rules again. Guess I am learning though with this one, but man is it hard to put some thought together for me without at least some reasons behind it instead of slapping my opinion around which I consider a waste of my time.
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 10:03 AM |
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Anger?
If anything I have said indicates anger please let me know cause I had absolutely no feelings of frustration but was merely conversing about the topic and trying to reason through the matter which does incorperate questions and some silly type gesturing. If I do seem defensive or angry I can delete them cause I sure don't want to leave people upset about this debate.
-dEth8
Oh, and my book was longer then mocara's is why it is listed behind him although I wrote it before going back to read all the posts here:Þ
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 10:49 AM |
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last reply
oki, my last reply to that topic....
last statements saddens me, think its a lit bit 'cheap' mr. jinxer ....
u are as long as i member of h3-toh and u can remember (if u want) that there were always complaints about the gameplay....
1. gremlin rush
2. grail
3. 2nd skilss as dip, log, etc
3rd/4th. lvl heroes
now hit& run... - and the next month there will be another issue that'll make tournament play impossible .... )
what i only want to say is: beware of changing gameplay elements (mb because of a (few) loss - right, unobjective - sorry!). be strong enough to stand that intentions - and if u cant do that, then mb say: i want s p e c i a l rules
but (!) : dont bother me me with ur 2+2=5 comparisions, u aren't the owner of the real truth...
whats a tournament atmosphere ? an atmosphere where everybody wins ? an atmosphere where the carpet has a depth of 5cm only to prevent any noise during gaming ?.... i say no !
and again : beware of that beginnings to limitate h3-rules -> mocara is right, at the end u'll have nothing in ur hands !
and btw (especially for u ): two years ago there was a posting named 'complaints,complaints, complaints' - pls have a look at it, if u dont know where to get... - pls ask mocara, he's the author
and finally : i dont say right or wrong to special rulers, as long as there are enough people who play 'no rules' it doesnt matter to me.
as i said: i dont want to supress one of that factions....
- woods
@jex : sometimes one has to recognize highlights of h3-posting not only whining about a large text )
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Mr_Shane
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 01:08 PM |
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hehe
4 whole pages on the topic of hit and run, and still i have no idea what the whole big fuss is about
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2001 01:58 PM |
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deth ur post is very uninformed - response
Jex, if you knew the game was over why didn't you concede? Instead you belabored the point? Then you come off with this complaining about hit and run after word and bad mouth them?
The only way I can make sense of why you say these things is that must have just been angry about your loss in the first place and you are displacing your frustration with yourself and what you considered to be unfair (losing to bad set of luck for your opponent) long before the hit and run ever occurred.
The hit and run move tormented you because you were all ready feeling inadequate because you were feeling the odds where overwhelming and that you were going to lose for certain. Never the less you give it your last attempt to overcome unseeming odds because you still didn't want to accept your loss.....thus, you come and attack in hopes that something even cheaper then the circumstances before you will befall your opponent and in the end defraud him of a rightful win.
When he makes sure that isn't going to happen your inner dissatisfaction causes you to reel on and get more upset with the matter still not wanting to accept that things didn't go your way. In the end you are forced to accept the loss and the circumstances putting you there you still do not wish to accept because at the bottom of your belief is that you think you are a better player and should always win your games.
I hope somewhere that I have misunderstood your complaint, but it seems to always come back to the core belief that you must think you are a better player and never deserve to lose because of that. I would think losing without hit and run involved still is upsetting and that many times (not everytime but many) after a game you feel there was something in particular that was an acception and that you really should have won if not for that innequity in the game.
Now when you are upset still about this loss you lash out at me calling me uninformed when you feel your opponent was supported in his win and that it somehow might reflect that you didn't deserve to win deep down at the core of the issue in this particular circumstance.
This is the only way I kind seem to make sense of why you would continue to fingerpoint saying you have been robbed or somehow taken advantage of when you should not have been.
The only reason I speak to this is that it seems hypocritical that you would want your opponent to somehow lose this game that has gone by nature into their hands giving them a win over you. I don't think it is right that we exact a win from others when the game provides a means for them to beat us. So I speak out that we all might accept our losses however they might come and that we continue to enjoy the game realizing this will happen and that it should not rob us of our joy in life.
-dEth8
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Zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted March 30, 2001 04:23 PM |
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my $.02 worth, mebe not even worth that
I have been following this "intelligent" thread and have bitten my lip the whole time, I understand both sides of this discussion and have experienced it firsthand. To me it is very frustrating to get killed by this tactic, I will try everything I can to defend it and have had opponents with the same castle type as I have hock all their resources to buy that speed cape in the black market just so they could hit and run me. I dont want to limit the game at all, and I play no rules (no grail usually is all) but I also will put people on my do not play list who hit and run me.(I dont make a rule about hit and run, but say at beginning of match that I dont like it and see what response they have) I know this doesnt sound fair to the previous statement I made (no rules), but I do consider it a bit cheap, yes deth, Mocara I heard all your thoughts and respect them, its just this tactic (although part of the game and no error of programmers) takes a lot of the "joy" out of heroes for me and that is what this game is all about "for me". I am not going to argue the point, because none of the people taking part in this discussion are going to change their feelings on hit n run because of the dialogue in this thread. yes, running a map much better and building much better than my opponent shouldnt guarantee a win for me, but to be hit n run to death is just no fun.(besides being very depressing)
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Winner or Whiner?
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YouSmell
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 30, 2001 06:05 PM |
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I don't know why you guys still debatin over hit/run. I think Deth8 and Moc said enough to win the debate that hit/run is accepted by most people, and every single of their words (especially deth's) all made so much sense. Hit/run is just pretty much luck including experienced in heroes and intelligent. Common, how often do you get the chance to use hit and run. You can't chose to use hit/run on any game you like, its not that easy like someone made it out to be (no names mentioned) I want to see anyone who can get Archangel and whateva spell and just use that to win. You don't pull out a Archangel anywhere or anytime you want, most maps u have trouble gettin them, earliest is week 2 on rich map like HG or BM Or Dw unless u are one lucky bastard get them from camp. And what about Spell, 5th spell is expensive and whats the chance u get implosion. So WHAT !!IF!! you do get it, if u play someone good like deth mentioned top 5 ranked or non ranked like flamingo or antal. You think its a easy win? Well i don't think so but atleast make them go on fire or swet kakakak And Hit/run is not that easy to use either, no grandma in the world can use that. You need experienced in heroes and smart thinking to use it. I started to play heroes3 and toh a week b4 season1 end. I only found out hit/run tactics after i heard people talkin about it and i remembered, i used a tactic something like hit/run on my opponent once. from there i know what hit/run is about. But b4 that, i have no clue what hit/run is or its a big issue. So i am sure not everyone know how to use it or when to use it, it need some smart thinkin too you know. I know its a big exageration about grandma usin hit/run lol but common, its not that easy that the exageration on grandma usin hit/run should be used. I am pretty sure most low rank or inexperience players know about hit/run tactic and what important is, do they know that they have the chance to use it?? Of cos Deth8 know, Jex, Jinx, Zud and Pietajji, they sure know.
So my point is....leave hit/run alone, i hate being used by it but who cares, ITS PART OF THE GAME.
Ps: Chess is one of the greatest game, the most brilliant game ever created, how many tactics are there available to use? Millions...and there are many cheap/dirty moves also to use (if u can think of it or when to use it) Good players call those moves are clever/brilliant moves, but they all in the game. So why not try to make Heroes similar, take hit/run as one of the clever or cheap moves (which ever u wanna call it) and accept it as one out of a 100 or millions moves u can use in the game. Good old sayin "Its Part Of The Game" And its not only good, Its too good, incredibly good, amazing good that people always say it kakakaka
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Tekken Tag
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted March 30, 2001 07:56 PM |
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Case closed
And Vu comes in at the last minute and says it better than all of us put together.
I had you all wrong in thinking you were only into slamming people all the time.
Pleasantly surprised and very impressed by your way of putting it.
Case closed for me, Mocara
P.S. Thanks for all the knowledged dropped on me in this thread and keeping it cool. And yes that goes for Jinxer and Jex too.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 30, 2001 09:38 PM |
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Again I will Concced.
Nowhere is any of my posts have I ever slammed on anyone personally. And I see that this post is starting to turn to personal bashing. My opinions on hit and run ahve nothing to do with not wanting to lose or not wanting my record tarnished. My record is 117-80. That is already as tarnished as it can get. I lose almost as much as I win, so losing any game is no big deal having 81 losses is no different that 80 losses. It was said best in one of the previous threads I dont remember which one that everyones opinion on this matter is based on how they percieve this game.
To answer some of your questions Deth.. I have been hit and run about 4 times in my TOH career. And I lost 3 outta the 4 times. And everyloss was to a player that was alot lower in rank. I have never played a higher ranked opponent that has tryed to hit and run me. I would suspect because the higher ranked players can play the game without it and win on other merits.
AS for your Utopia argument it is not the same becasue no matter how big of a difference the Utopias are atleast you get a chance to defend your self and fight. You may still lose but they won by battling. And I have won several battles where my opponent has had superior stats. Because of using better battling techniques and fighting much better in battle. Each side had equal chance to use what the game had given them.
Can you imagine going into court and you were on trial for Murder and the procecution was the only side alowwed to ask question and make a case in front of the jury and you were never permitted to be heard not a peep. Would be kinda lopsided. Kinda hard to defend your self if you are never given the chance.
But anyways as I said already once I will say again I conceed to my opponents on this issue. You obviously have this game figured out much better and understand it to a higher level.
BTW dEth, quite a lot of my losses I could have pulled out a win if I had chose to use hit and run, but I was outplayed so i didnt deserve the win. So if losses bothered me I wouldnt have conceeded several games and took the losses. Peace everyone, just dont forget this message board is for posting opinions and debates dont let it get outta hand and become personal. Have fun.
Jinxer
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2001 07:29 PM |
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Is this Hit - n Run, when i am the one being HIT?
Me and my opponent were discussing rules for our game the other day. I myself prefer no rules whatsoever. My opponent said he wanted no hit and run. I said fine, no problem. He then asked me if i would explain hit and run to him, i said `your rule, you explain to me'. He then came up with this as his version of Hit n Run. If someone attacks then the player being attacked can not leave until Round 2, but if the player being attacked casts a spell then he must stay until Round 3.
So therefore if i were to get attacked by him by surprise and had a relatively weak army but meteor shower spell.
First off i would have to stay at least one round before i could surrender.
Secondly, i would have to stay to round 3 if i decided to cast Meteor shower ( who in there right mind would not cast a damage spell like meteor shower beforing surrendering )
Thirdly, if i had to stay till round 3 with a weak army, i would be dead, heck i may even be dead round 2.
We went round and round about this. I basically stated if you attack me i will cast spells and do whatever i want. He said NO! that would be Hit and Run. How would this be Hit and Run if I am not the one doing the Hitting ( attacking)? Is it me? or is that just ridiculous. Well finally he agreed to no rules, but he was still adamant that it was hit and run.
PLayers like this just really have no place playing me, but unfortunately it was in a tourney and we had to play. They try to make rules and such to make you play their style of version of game play.
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted April 03, 2001 12:45 AM |
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Come on Deth
Cant seem to change titles 
I will repeat earlier comment, because no one bother to acknowledge it. By using h&r you get rid of the actual fighting of a person. This is my favorite part so why would I want to get rid of it???? Oh one more problem in the defending h&r agruements, you say it is part of the game however you play with no grail??? That is part of the game too, last time I checked 
Now dont you see that you guys defending the no rulez, but no grail side have some flawed logic. If you are willing to make this rule, why not another one? After all the no grail rule is just made because the grail can be very unfairly placed. And this derives from the enjoyment of your game play, well i have found that h&r has the same effect for me.
Jex
Ps Ironmlh the guy you were playing was ..well I wont say it. h&r for me has always been no attacking a hero than casting a nasty spell than running or attacking with a scout and lots of fodder, and a nasty spell.
Pss Sorry Mo for the comment about the book. I just thought you could have gotten to the point sooner. Like your last couple of posts but i know my posts are long too, sorry for that too.
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 03, 2001 02:04 AM |
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source of troubles
ironmlh,
What you described is exactly where many problems stem from. Where the need to make rules comes from I figure I have conjectured about enough. However, to apply what I have said to all people across the board is a fallacy also imo.
While seeming crazy I hear disputes on this type of stuff constantly. The people who post at this board think about issues often much more it seems then those making the rules about stuff.
Best regards,
-dEth8
Quote:
Me and my opponent were discussing rules for our game the other day. I myself prefer no rules whatsoever. My opponent said ...........
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted April 03, 2001 03:17 AM |
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reply to: "Come on Deth" by Jex
Jex, sorry another book, but there was alot to respond to and I feel I need to do as good a job I can.
Every time I have written it has been without anger actually. Moreso from a mildly depressed state in reality due to some of the quibbling around here. If I am ranting I don't mind deleting this whole thread really, however to remove my comments I would think necessitates the removal of yours to which it seemed I should clarify what my position actually is/was as best I can. I think the statements are fine seen in this light.
A clarification of what I am uninformed or misinformed about in your post might have been well understood. I didn't get that from your post. Nor did you alert me to that in following posts. I am sorry if I am missing your point or situation. I felt the need to qualify that I wasn't some goon who had no idea of what I had been stating prior to your response.
If you do hurt my feelings I will email you or talk to you about it at the Zone. I think alot of the disscussion on this thread has been beneficial to all regardless of their point of view. The reason I included that I was not angry was because I could see someone taking it to be that way, thus I felt the need to clarify. Now it seems that it was still assumed even though I said it plainly as I could.
If I am telling you how to feel and act then I apologize for comming off like I had the power to even assert such a thing. I do think I can identify with anyone that has been mutilated by hit and run since I have had it happen to me in a most brutal and unpleasant fashion. I have also been maligned for hitting a guy with a lightningbolt that killed a level 7 or two of his when he attacked me and I fled as in ironmlh's situation.
About the grail, if it is included on a map it is diggable unless someone specifies the game is to be played without it. Nothing faulty about that logic if you understand the reason behind it which is stated on the HC page. It is the only rule respected in TOH since it is easily interpreted without argument. Rather than have two of many maps for people who like this option, we simply allow this rule for players to limit their game in that respect since they can do so without argument or ill feelings. I wouldn't be opposed to other simple player "rules or options" such as not taking of certain artifacts that are known to be on a map or not taking something like utopias. However, we have never had such requests.
About the fighting with actual human players do you not do that with hit and run in aranging your attack and defense areas on the map with troop placement and gametime strategy? I am assuming you mean big brawl sessions with massive amounts of troops on both sides (I enjoy those too myself). I do not see that hit and run is necessarily a limit on the occurrance of large troops battles for the most part. Often times hit and run is not even possible when a player is hoping despirately to execute that tpye of manuvering. Therefore, most of the time you will have big battles still and you (you meanning in most cases a player, not specifically you Jex) will just have to keep on guard that you could possibly be hit and run on also. Makes for a scarier game imo, but that is just me too.
About coming over for a visit, I am not sure what you mean by that statement and I am distraught that you feel that I do not respect your opinion.
I completely respect your opinion and right to play the game how you like. If you like your rules you are free to make them and play with whoever you like as always has been allowed. However, the reason I even speak on this topic is that I have seen that it is usually the rulemakers that do the complaining and generally they do so to protect their records. They also often put people down and intimidate people into using their rules. Additionally, they do a great job at making games miserable for people who play naturally with whatever options come their way in a game. Case in point...Ironlh's post above. I see you even agree with my point about all this now. I don't consider you to be in the same catagory of people as most hit and run banners even though you carry their flag btw.
I hope this topic does become stale and people opt for enjoying themselves and treating eachother repectfully when it comes to desiring the making of additions or removals from their gameplay.
Again, not one ounce of anger mate...take care,
-dEth8
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Jex
Known Hero
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posted April 03, 2001 04:46 AM |
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Well I will try to stick to the issue
Ur agruement is that taking out H&R gets rid of some stategy, a valid point. H&R adds some stategy of where to leave your hero at the end of each turn and such. However I think using H&R gets rid of more stategy. Cause with H&R you dont haveta know how to fight a human opponent. Just how to H&R them to death or enuff till they have no or little troops than crush them. This elimantes close fights and the point to using mass spells to increase or decrease troops stats. I dont think u understand me when I say I enjoy the actual fighting. What I mean is a close fight between to evenly matched heroes with similar numbers in each stack of troops. I dont see using H&R as actually fighting ur opponent cause the fight is all one sided. He doesnt have a chance to defend himself or return the favor. Sure lots of fights are one sided in real life too, however in real life the losing party always has a chance to attack back. That is my problem with H&R there is no way for me to hit you back. I dont necessarily mean massive armies just whatever you can get ur hands on.
Jex
Ps plz dont refer to urself in the third person next time. We all know you are the Honor Council. So ur comment about the grail doesnt say much accept that you still see it as a valid rule. I think most people understand what H&R means atlest all the people in Bastards do cause they dont need a page explaining it.
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