|
|
Endbringer
Adventuring Hero
Devil's Bane
|
posted October 10, 2012 05:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Dark elves aren't evil, they're just misunderstoood.
Bring back Asylum!
I think demons would be the only actual "evil" race in Ashan.
Dark Elves can be pretty heartless though.
|
|
ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 06:02 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Academy is Air or Ylath.
i thought academy was the faction that didn't have a dragon. they were the "atheists" in the game. so they are more of a prime magic faction, no? anyway djinni and titans do strike me as air magic units, so it's good i guess. we just have to wait and see. as for the dwarves i think it will be a long long long time till we see them so lets enjoy fiery inferno for now
____________
|
|
blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 06:32 PM |
|
Edited by blob2 at 18:50, 10 Oct 2012.
|
I think that if they base unit line-up on the concepts in Ashan Compendium (which is very likely) we will get a Dungeon as similar to that of Heroes III as ever. Minotaurs, Beholders and Manticores are 3/7 of the H3 line-up and if Blackies will also make their appearance fans should be happy  I don't mind a little twist in the form of Faceless. And just as many players found H5 Fortress too dwarfish (and I agree with them), I find H5 Dungeon too elvish in the same manner
Imo Heroes was a game that was always crazy about as many types of creatures in a single town as possible (well maybe beside Castle that is). In the lore (I'm referring to H3 and H4) it was explained that towns are a sort of beacon for creatures that share the same nature or calling, and it didn't matter if one was an elf and the other a unicorn. In Heroes 5 and 6 it seems a bit like there is one race per faction and the rest of the units are there by some sort of allegiance/enslavement/magic process, not from the fact they joined them, because they shared their interests and point of view. Although I like when the town has it's own distinct style and logical connection (like Dungeon in H5: lower hierarchy elves, higher caste of elves, elves on a lizard, a slave of the elves etc.), I still find it boring, so I personally like the Heroes 3 formula the best (more creature types).
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 08:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
For such general complainers I have onely one advice. Find another game or/and stick to old games, if you are not satisfied with the current state. Nobady forces you to buy/play them
And I'll reply: Create a new franchise and let good franchises die an honorable death. Changing too many core aspects is only going to alienate half the fanbase.
How black do you think the Black Dragon is gonna turn out to be?
Shades of purple of completely purple?
|
|
Endbringer
Adventuring Hero
Devil's Bane
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 08:24 PM |
|
|
Quote:
How black do you think the Black Dragon is gonna turn out to be?
Shades of purple of completely purple?
Its looks like this:
Very badass IMO
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 08:32 PM |
|
|
So shades of purple it is then.
Yeah, I've seen that image before, I thought it was supposed to be Malassa or Shalassa.
Not the worst of dragon designs, but not as majestic as I had hoped it would be.
And the wings seems like an afterthought, but I hardly believe wings in Ashan is supposed to do anything other than look cool.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 08:37 PM |
|
|
While they may try to follow this style, the end result might not quite look like that.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 08:45 PM |
|
Edited by blob2 at 20:55, 10 Oct 2012.
|
|
What I'm curious about is how the black non-upgraded form will look like, how it will be named, and it's color scheme. Probably Shadow Dragon, but they can always change this by adding something new (although I don't think that Reds will be back)... and assuming that BK's will indeed make their appearance in the expansion, we still don't have any proof for this...
|
|
Endbringer
Adventuring Hero
Devil's Bane
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 08:46 PM |
|
|
Quote:
So shades of purple it is then.
Yeah, I've seen that image before, I thought it was supposed to be Malassa or Shalassa.
It's the Daughter of Malassa from the campaign. I doubt that Black Dragons are any different.
Quote:
And the wings seems like an afterthought, but I hardly believe wings in Ashan is supposed to do anything other than look cool.
They're especially useless for the Pit Fiend.
Seriously. What kind of use are bat wings turned upside-down with no skin membrane?
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 08:54 PM |
|
|
Inverted, burned out wings are an allegory for fallen.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Endbringer
Adventuring Hero
Devil's Bane
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 08:59 PM |
|
|
Aye, but according to the timeline, they aren't fallen. They were bad apples to begin with.
Very insightful, though, Elvin.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 09:52 PM |
|
|
Trouble is, Dungeon line-up is not without problems.
Disregarding all tradition of the game, the Dark Elven faction would have to have the Faceless as Champion unit. They fit the theme, the fit the lore - and what's more, they would be interesting as champion unit. They could be quite active spellcasters with stuff like Forgetfulness, Phantom Image and whatnot.
On the other hand DUNGEON as a faction needs the Black Dragon, because a Dungeon faction without a Black Dragon is not a Dungeon faction...
Exactly, and that shows that the bew Dungeon is actually not the Dungeon of old. Which means, no matter which Champion unit there is, the town will lose: if it's faceless, the old fans will be pissed, since there are no Black Dragons. If it's Black Dragons, well what about the war of the ancients?
|
|
Endbringer
Adventuring Hero
Devil's Bane
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 10:14 PM |
|
|
|
It would be nice for Dungeon's Champion to be Black Dragon, but if it's Faceless instead, I don't think it's anything for me to get butthurt over.
|
|
Verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 10:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
if it's Black Dragons, well what about the war of the ancients?
What about it, who cares.
The point is to have a fun and dynamic lineup, not to stringently adhere to Erwin's contrived lore bible which the series will hopefully outlast anyway.
|
|
Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 10:30 PM |
|
Edited by Avonu at 22:32, 10 Oct 2012.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Now we only know about Dwarves from Grimheim, but Thallan is not only continent on Ashan. You can imagine that somewhere on far North or far South lives another Dwarves who adopted to icy environment and use all what they can to survive... and to fight. And still worship they Dragon God as Arkath use his fire to warm these Dwarves in their ice kingdom.
This is already explained. Dwarves survive in arctic environments like Grimheim because have insanely high body-temperature, which makes them not feel the cold or heat. Dwarves can walk out in the snow in what other would consider summer clothes. On the other side of the coin, Dwarves can handle burning coals with their bare hands without feeling pain or getting their skin burned.
So they do not need to adapt, they already are.
High-body temperature doesn't feed you, nor help you survive encounter with hostile creatures or make new allies who will help you.
Adopte to icy environmet means not only weather condition but also finding place to live (like for example carving cities in ice), food to eat or new allieswho will protect you from other creatures.
Quote:
If it's Black Dragons, well what about the war of the ancients?
Nothing, as there wasn't any war of the ancients.
If you mean Elder Wars - they ended when Sar-Elam forced both Angels and Faceless to sign peace treaty... and when Micheal wanted to break it, he paid with his own life for that.
It's ended and none Angel or Faceless want or can start it again. There are magic bonds in treaty that prevent from starting new war.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 10:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Nothing, as there wasn't any war of the ancients.
If you mean Elder Wars - they ended when Sar-Elam forced both Angels and Faceless to sign peace treaty... and when Micheal wanted to break it, he paid with his own life for that.
It's ended and none Angel or Faceless want or can start it again. There are magic bonds in treaty that prevent from starting new war.
Yeah, well, right. It's Angels and FACELESS that sign the treaty, not Angels and Black (or Shadow) Dragons.
|
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 10:52 PM |
|
|
The War of Ancients is from Warcraft. And the pandas are awesome, so remain mad.
That being said, weren't the angels winning the Elder Wars? I mean like, maybe it was retconned but H5 said that Tuidhana made a pact with one of the last faceless and afaik H5 angels were proper angels, minus the Seraphs. What I'm trying to say with this is that Faceless could be elite instead champions to show this.
Either that or them being shapeshifters they turn into black dragons
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 11:02 PM |
|
|
Let me start by pointing out that the artwork shown by Endbringer is one of Malassa, not of a Black Dragon. This is what the Goddess Malassa and her avatars look like.
Quote:
The point is to have a fun and dynamic lineup, not to stringently adhere to Erwin's contrived lore bible which the series will hopefully outlast anyway.
Which is exactly what Ubisoft intends not to do. The "world bible", of which the Compendium is the part that is released to the public, is there to do exactly what you dislike it doing. Setting the rules and guidelines to which the world, lore and story have to adhere to keep a modicum of consistency. This was an active choice made to combat the "who cares, anything goes" attitude of the early games and avoid the equally contrived attempt to weave everything together afterward. To have guidelines from the beginning, they tried to keep everything as consistent as possible. Especially given that the development of Heroes 5 Vanilla overtook the development of the guidelines.
And as much as you, or others, dislike it, there is little to do about it but request the producers to adapt. Something I do not see them doing soon.
Quote:
High-body temperature doesn't feed you, nor help you survive encounter with hostile creatures or make new allies who will help you.
Adopte to icy environmet means not only weather condition but also finding place to live (like for example carving cities in ice), food to eat or new allieswho will protect you from other creatures.
The problem with this is the Dwarves, as a race, build downward toward the lava beds. So Dwarves would never build ice-cities, they would simply dig deeper towards a depth they are comfortable with.
Another thing is that Dwarves do not realy need protection. They are fierce warriors who can stand one their own and do it well. Every time known to Ashan history where Dwarves allied with others is not because the Dwarves needed them, it was because they needed the Dwarves. On top of this, as a race, Dwarves are too stubborn to seek help and to do so is to loose face. Dwarves rather die heroic deaths in battle.
The only thing were you might have a point is food. What Dwarves eat, what they use in their famous breweries and where they get it from is an unknown to all but the Dwarves themselves. Dwarves, whose clan affiliation works in a manner of a caste system, have no clans that function as a peasant clan/caste/class. This might be different, but then again it is hard to say some things are different if you have no originals to compare it to.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 11:16 PM |
|
Edited by Avirosb at 23:30, 10 Oct 2012.
|
Quote:
"who cares, anything goes" attitude of the early games and avoid the equally contrived attempt to weave everything together afterward.
Example?
Quote:
Dwarves rather die heroic deaths in battle.
And become reborn as hot laydays 
|
|
Verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted October 10, 2012 11:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Which is exactly what Ubisoft intends not to do. The "world bible", of which the Compendium is the part that is released to the public, is there to do exactly what you dislike it doing. Setting the rules and guidelines to which the world, lore and story have to adhere to keep a modicum of consistency. This was an active choice made to combat the "who cares, anything goes" attitude of the early games and avoid the equally contrived attempt to weave everything together afterward. To have guidelines from the beginning, they tried to keep everything as consistent as possible. Especially given that the development of Heroes 5 Vanilla overtook the development of the guidelines.
and those motives really paid off.
The execution of it has been a stunning success, sure the universe loses a bit of vibrancy when we have to look at radiant glories and spring spirits instead of creative new units, but look at all the Hugo Awards and Pulitzer Prizes the Ubisoft team has won with their better storytelling approach.
Look at all the fans on the edge of their seats waiting for the next chapter of the Ashan story, wondering and debating over where Isabel and Raelag's excellently written and plot hole free romance will lead next, or what happens after the thrilling plot of Heroes VI.
On top of that everything they wrote has been absolutely consistent and there hasn't been a single retcon or logic lapse.
Sorry for a strawman reply but still.
I like the phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but if applied everywhere it can ruin innovation. That said I think it's something Ubisoft increasingly fails to consider when they actually should,
and I think it's not possible to accept they are more or less to be excused for totally sloppy work just because they probably had good intentions.
I don't care if every single thing in the lore says a Faceless should be on tier 7, because it's not important. Whatever. Anyone can make up lore and change details later. They changed lots of details from Heroes V like Cerberus and Lich. It's not like it will make the story any worse.
And lore should never take precedence over fun anyway, at least not in a Heroes game.
And can you give me a source where NWC said they had no rules or guidelines for the world in Heroes I-IV.
|
|
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
