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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2012 06:02 PM |
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In my opinion, towns in Heroes are nearly exclusively linked with TERRAIN.
Knight town is grass/village. It's also exclusively human.
Sorceress is Wood with associated wood creatures.
Barbarian is rough/barren with associated creatures.
Necro is Dirt/Mud with undead creatures
Tower is hilly terrain with "the Wizards" and their creations
Warlock is Cave/Swamp with associated creatures (Minos and Centaurs are cave, Hydras and Dragons are Swamp).
In H3 that changes a bit, insofar that Dungeon becomes the underground (or JUST Cave) town, while we get a new Swamp town with the Fortress. The rest more or less keeps their terrain, Inferno becoming a new LAVA town.
This has been underlined by giving each faction a "home turf" with an advantage in speed.
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2012 08:11 PM |
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Edited by foxxxer at 20:14, 24 Oct 2012.
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@Dave_Jame, why are you so donnish. I meant all games (except H6) from the series, not only H2 and H3. If you want to be pedantic even in Sorceress-Rampart case there is one more overlaping creature (3/7) than Warlock-Dungeon (2/7). Also H1 and H2 have 6 creatures per faction, so half of the Sorceress critters move in Rampart and 1/3 from Warlock to Dungeon.
I'm gonna point out creatures that have presence in the factions 50% (and more) of all games and if you look over the series (excluding H6 ofc) you can find only three creatures in Dungeon:
Dragon 5/5 appearances
Minotaur 5/5
Hydra 4/5
Elves
Unicorn 5/5
Elf/Hunter 5/5
Pixie 4/5
Druid 3/5
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Phoenix 3/5
Dwarf 3/5
Yeah, Phoenix and Dwarves are out at least for H6 but still I see here more consistency than Dungeon.
Humans
Archer 5/5
Cavalry/Champion 5/5
Swordsman/Crusader/Footman 5/5
Pikeman 4/5
Angel 3/5
Monk 3/5
Peasant 3/5
Wizards
Titan 4/4
Mage 4/4
Golem 4/4
Genie 3/4
Naga 2/4
Gargoyle 2/4
Gremlin 2/4
Halfling 2/4
Necromancers
Bone Dragon 4/4
Vampire 4/4
Skeleton 4/4
Lich 3/4
Zombie 3/4
Ghost 2/4
Inferno
Devil 3/3
Cerberus 3/3
Imp 3/3
Pit Lord 2/3
Demon 2/3
I won't regard Stronghold because they took new path in the new universe for bad or worse.
As you see the other factions have some consistency whereas Dungeon don't.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 24, 2012 08:56 PM |
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Well if you are calling me donnish (btw thank you for extending my vocabulary) I think I must do the fallowing corrections.
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*Phoenix 3/6
*Dwarf 3/6
Since pheonix is in the sixt game and Dwarves have their own faction now so 99% no dwarves in the Sorceress branch in Heroes VI
*Archer 6/6
*Cavalry/Champion 6/6
*Swordsman/Crusader/Footman 5*/6 (there was a rather strong discussion in one topic about Pretorians)
*Pikeman 4.5/6 (same reason as the Swordsman branch)
*Angel 3/6
*Monk 3/6
*Peasant 3/6
(haven has been in 6 games not 5)
*Bone Dragon 4/5
*Vampire 5/5
*Skeleton 5/5
*Lich 4/5
*Zombie 4/5
*Ghost 3-4/5 (I do not want to start the discussion about What unit is a ghost and what not again)
*Devil 3.5/4
*Cerberus 3.5/4
*Imp 3.5/4
*Pit Lord 2/4
Demon 2/4 (and there will be no more of them since now we have different kinds of demons)
Even if Inferno and necropolis made one faction in heroes IV, they were still there, so the have both been in 4(5) games.
OK now enought of this donnish behavior (Is that the right form of this word?).
I just wanted to point out that the Warlock->Dungeon transformation was not the only major change in a faction between H2 and H3. Yes it was the most significant one. But does this destroy the Feeling of the faction in your opinion? Is a change in units, terrain, name etc. enought to say "now it is not the same faction anymore".
You spoke about the Stronghold faction having a new perspective in the new universe, but it is still the same stronghold faction. Or do you feel it different?
And to put an end to this. I will add an image of how I see the evolution of factions in Heroes games. Note that this is only a personal opinion. (Pink lines are indirect branches, intermittent lines are for minimal connections)
New factions come, old factions change. Some changes are more significant some less. But the roots are still the same.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted October 25, 2012 05:34 AM |
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I would agree with the above, with the addition that if you would put a pink line from H2 Sorceress to H3 Conflux, there are a lot of other pink lines that you would have to put in to be consistent. However, they would just make your picture a mess and not add any useful information.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 08:28 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 08:35, 25 Oct 2012.
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@Miru, I disagree. The old "nature factions" had as much to do with magic as they had to do with nature, if not more.
So Rampart got the terrain and most of the units after the divorce.
Conflux got the weakest and strongest creatures as well as the colorful architecture.
Then, in H4, they both merged and became Preserve.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 09:51 AM |
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I'm not really sure what this discussion is all about, but if it's about a continuity of towns over the Heroes series then THERE IS NONE. The picture is quite wrong. Heroes 2 was published shortly after 1, since they had it already in mind when they published 1. So Heroes 2 is basically the start. Now look at how they made the game - towns completely different, every faction one hero type, faction theme TERRAIN based. (Sorceress, for example, are a WOODS or FOREST faction).
3 changed QUITE a lot. The Warlock faction of H 2 becomes an UNDERGROUND faction. it's neither the most expensive with 2 Dragon upgrades anymore, and gone is the swamp motive. And while they still have Warlocks, the OVERLORDS are now generally the better heroes (or let's just say to forestall a discussion, if you play Dungeon with an Overlord, you won't miss the Warlock.
The factions have now TOWN or FACTION names instead of being named by their Hero type.
Basically the only thing that is reminiscent of the old Warlock faction are Warlocks, Minotaurs and Dragons, and the Dragons are just as wrong in those underground caves as are the Warlocks - they would have belonged into a Swamp. Look at the townscreen of the H 2 Warlock castle - quite a different thing than the Dungeon of H 3.
H 3 tranformed every faction, though, least of all the Undead. What it kept was, for example, the rivalry between Titans and Black Dragons - but they are not anymore superior to everything else that walks the plane.
So there is no or not much continuity, and Heroes 4 is a complete break. The Chaos faction is DEFINITELY not the Dungeon of 3 nor the Warlock faction of 2. The game is completely different. Everything is a mix, Dwarves with Order (fitting for them), a lot of Inferno in Chaos, but also in Death... a complete new order that destroys the old factions. (I've often thought, that H 4 was probably the revenge of the Devs for the Forge incident.)
5 went back, but yet again to another world. The main thing was to change things so that you'd have a people associated with each faction. Interestingly enough they went back to one hero again, so you could identify the factions with their heroes. STILL, Rampart is RANGER now, NOT Sorceress; Inferno is DEMON LORD, NEITHER Heretic NOR Demoniac. However, Knight is Knight - and Warlock is Warlock.
To me the H 5 Dungeon is a very logical Dungeon. It's not the terrain-based factions of old (1 and 2) anymore, and it's neither the naively chaotic merge of stuff either. It's different. The continuity is based on 2 things: 1) Black Dragons; 2) the Warlock, who ONCE AGAIN, dominates by casting destruction spells with may more power than everyone else does, like it was in 2, but not in 3 (destructive spells are second rate) and not in 4 (the Warlocks are mainly Inferno type heroes and Chaos has so much more to offer in spells than destruction).
For all those who want to see "wild beasts" in Dungeon - that was over when Dungeon went underground. From a logical perspective FLIERS UNDERGROUND stop making sense when they exceed the size of a bat. A beast like a Manticore... or a Black Dragon. Yeah, well.
All in all I don't think all of this matters. If you ask me, I want to see beasts in every faction, and I don't care much which ones, provided I get a couple of interesting ones. [rant]For H 6, Sanctuary as the new faction did NOT deliver, in my opinion. Kappas? Bull. Where the HELL are the darn creatures of the old Fortress of H 3? Dragonflies? Lizard Warriors (Sharkies are somewhat overdoing it), BASILISKS? They could have put even WYVERN in, since they didn't need them for Stronghold. Or Hydras. Nagas, ok, Kirin, pretty good.
So for me - not enough beasts. Spring Spirits, Pearl Priestesses, Yuki-Onnas... NAGA faction?[/rant]
That's the problem with the people-factions in general - not enough beasts, except for the Inferno. Clearly, them Wizards could have been a lot more productive in the beast department, since Asha screwed things up, while Urgash did a pretty decent job there. 
The bottom line of all this is, that some things simply work through naive charm and start getting forced when you try to put them onto a somewhat "reasonable" foundation. It's FANTASY, right? Who cares for reason, anyway?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 10:35 AM |
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It's not so much continuity as it is spiritual succession.
It's just interesting to study how the various factions have "developed", 's all.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 11:35 AM |
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But with the Dungeon there just is none. H 3 Dungeon is not H 2 Warlock, not even spiritually, since the swamp motive is missing completely and a strong Might aspect enters the town with the Overlords, while the Black Dragons (and the Titans) are not way stronger than the rest of the lot: H 3 is very different from H 2, probably most of all the Dungeon, least of all the Necropolis.
Between H 3 and H 4 the old Warlock town just passed away - no Dark Elves needed for that.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 11:39 AM |
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But the H2 warlock faction has a dungeon, and the H3 Dungeon has warlocks 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 12:00 PM |
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Yeah, and both H 3 and H 5 have a Fortress.
Also, in H 4 Nature has a creature portal and can gate units in.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 01:03 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 13:36, 25 Oct 2012.
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-Heroes are egocentric, opportunistic and powerhungry individuals.
-Powerful yet expensive creatures (overall).
-Some kind of dragon. Also Minotaurs.
Edit: V I knew I had forgotten something 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 25, 2012 01:06 PM |
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Quote:
-Heroes are egocentric, opportunistic and powerhungry individuals.
-Powerful yet expensive creatures (overall).
-Some kind of dragon.
-Minotaurs
Fixed that fer ye.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 01:57 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
-Heroes are egocentric, opportunistic and powerhungry individuals.
-Powerful yet expensive creatures (overall).
-Some kind of dragon.
-Minotaurs
Fixed that fer ye.
Still wrong. Powerful, yet expensice creatures? That is of course true in H 2. Except that the Heroes are not individuals, but generic stat holders with a picture. If anything, NECRO heroes are that.
Creatures cost real money, but are really powerful.
However, in H 3, that's not true anymore. The Trogs are 2nd rate, and too expensive. The Hags are good AND expensive. Beholders/Evil Eyes are JUST expensive, while Medusas are mdiocre in every respect. Minos are pretty good and not too expensive, while Scorpicores are easily 2nd worst level 6, but not too expensive either. Blackies are still great, but there are others just as good, and they are not that expensive either, compared with the rest.
Now consider the H 5 Dungeon:
Heroes are egocentric, opportunistic and powerhungry individuals. Check.
-Powerful yet expensive creatures (overall). Check
-Some kind of dragon. Check.
-Minotaurs. Check
Bottom line is, your description fits the H 5 Dungeon, but neither H 2 Warlock, nor H 3 Dungeon.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 25, 2012 02:08 PM |
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Quote:
Heroes are egocentric, opportunistic and powerhungry individuals.
Isn't that in the warlock job description?
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted October 25, 2012 02:13 PM |
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One thing. H3 Fortress and H5 Fortress have NOTHING in common, except of name, of course. That's only because the number of possible synonyms for "castle" is limited.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 02:23 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Heroes are egocentric, opportunistic and powerhungry individuals.
Isn't that in the warlock job description?
I disagree. In H 3 it's the job description for every single one of the 3 "evil" faction heroes. It's no special Warlock treat, on the contrary.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 02:24 PM |
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Quote:
Bottom line is, your description fits the H 5 Dungeon, but neither H 2 Warlock, nor H 3 Dungeon.
What about H4 Asylum?
-Egocentric, opportunistic and powerhungry individuals* (sorcerers, thieves)
-Some kind of dragon (black dragon). Also minotaurs.
-Powerful yet expensive creatures: ???
*as in, "only looking out for #1, AKA themselves"
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 02:27 PM |
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Quote:
One thing. H3 Fortress and H5 Fortress have NOTHING in common, except of name, of course. That's only because the number of possible synonyms for "castle" is limited.
Really?
In any case your reasoning is wrong. What about "Bastion"?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 02:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Bottom line is, your description fits the H 5 Dungeon, but neither H 2 Warlock, nor H 3 Dungeon.
What about H4 Asylum?
-Egocentric, opportunistic and powerhungry individuals* (sorcerers, thieves)
-Some kind of dragon (black dragon). Also minotaurs.
-Powerful yet expensive creatures: ???
*as in, "only looking out for #1, AKA themselves"
Asylum is a CHAOS town. It's more Inferno than everything else. There are no Warlocks or Overlords. Instead of EGOcentric, it should be EXcentric. It's not underground. It's something else completely. Orcs. Bandits. Nightmares. Efreets. Lots of Demonic Heroes.
The Dragon is of course the most expensive and powerful creature in the game, but just because of that it's not "Dungeon". It's just something else with a Dragon and silly Minotaurs.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 02:45 PM |
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Again, spiritual succession.
Besides, the only creature from H3 Inferno is the efreet, and it isn't even a kreegan.
Looks like we both have logical leaps in our arguments, eh?
You also seem to forget that town terrain depends on the terrain the town is built on.
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