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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 25, 2012 03:21 PM |
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There isn't a single demon in the Heroes IV Asylum, hero or creature (except maybe the Nightmare, I don't know what that is). Efreeti are not demons in the M&M universe.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 03:26 PM |
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I don't forget that - that's one reason why there is no such thing as spiritual succession.
Also, it makes no sense, to twist my argument that, IF ANYTHING, Asylum is more Inferno than everything else, so far as to assume a spiritual succession, just a different one.
I do not see any such thing. There is Heroes 2, clearly with Terrain-based themes and creatures. There is Heroes 3, still with terrain-ASSOCIATED themes and creatures, but quite different in style, balance, heroes and everything else.
And there is Heroes 4 with MAGIC-associated themes and creatures and hero classes depending on skills.
But, you know, it's like with the Kabbalah: if you LOOK for meaning somewhere you'll find it. If you look for spiritual succession and WANT to find it, you WILL find it.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 03:47 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 15:51, 25 Oct 2012.
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I dont see Inferno in H4 Asylum. Its obviously supposed to be Dungeons successor from the older games, with it having Medusas, Minotaurs, Hydras and Black Dragons.
aaand troglodytes and beholders as aligned neutrals
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 25, 2012 04:11 PM |
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The chaos theme has swapped factions since then  Spirtual successor, that's just a word. Would it make you feel better if we talked about the incarnation of factions with each game? Things change but the core factions and characteristics remain - more or less. Some change is inevitable.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 04:12 PM |
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Just for the sake of the argument, if you come up with Minotaurs and BDs as backbones of the Dungeon town, you CAN see the same thing in the Efreets, since they simply were great creatures (even though they were only allies of the Kreegan).
Also, Infer fits the Chaos theme way better than Dungeon, which isn't chaotic at all.
If they wanted to make the Asylum the successor of the Dungeon, they could have obviously done WAY better than transferring ORCS from Stronghold into the "Dungeon". Also, "Bandits" just plain suck as HUMAN part of the supposed Dungeon line-up, while "Nightmares" are simply a creature of Chaos, but no classic "monster".
The Asylum team-up is just that: the ASYLUM, a fitting name for a CHAOS town in every sense, both something the Warlock or Dungeon towns haven't been.
Don't forget the H 4 slogan. All new. Period.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 25, 2012 04:48 PM |
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Sorry JJ no offence but 4 people, who are well educated in the topic, and usually represent different sides of a discussion, now try to tell you that there is a line of heritage between H2 Warlocks, H3 Dungeon, H4 Chaos and H5/6 Dungeon.
This line is there, you may say that the factions do not have the same name, hero class, units, home ground etc., but you should see this spiritual succession that Avirosb mentioned.
If you do not then this will be my last try to persuade you before calling it a dead case.
You wanted a pure connecting line between these factions. I will give you one. Heroes, not the classes, but the individual characters.
H3 dungeon is the only faction that has a H3 warlock in his line-up. And not any warlock, the great king Alamar himself. Also other H2 warlocks are mentioned (Agar in the Bio of Ajit).
H4 Chaos heroes are (all clases) have a former dungeon overlord/Warlock hero in them. For example Dace, Darkstrom, Jeddite, Sephinroth or already mentioned Ajit.
Yes there are also few heroes that were in in the Inferno castle in H3 but all of them are efreets which have changed their allies in this game.
There are other things like the fact that a warlocks is in the same family in MaM VI as the sorcerers (Which is the name of the magic class in H4) but these are just names, and you should not focuse on names when you study the evolution of a faction.
EDIT:
And BTW, few facts for you JJ.
H4 Chaos has NO DEMONS in it. Efreets are not demons. All Demons are in the DEATH faction. Chaos never had DEMONS and had nothing to do with them in the term of faction structure. Just because you see some red characters does not mean they are demons. And just because you feel that the chaos theme fits demons better then the followers of the H2 warlocks does not change the fact that DEMONS, as H4 understands them, are in the DEATH.
Also, I called Minotaurs and Black Dragons the backbone of the faction for the solo reason, that they have been in this faction ever since H1(Yes it was not a black dragon at that time but it was a dragon). You can't call the Efreet the backbone just because it was a cool creature.The Rakshasa was a cool creature, but this does not mean that it is the backbone of the Academy army. You do know these things very well so now you are just being stubbern.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 04:55 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 17:19, 25 Oct 2012.
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Huh, I hadn't even thought about that.
Axeoth is a new world, and the warlocks and overlords lost much of their power and influence during and after The Reckoning,
forcing most of them to start over from scratch.
---
Here's what the H3 manual has to say about the warlock:Quote:
Warlocks learn magic for the power it gives them to achieve dark and selfish goals.
More than any other hero, they focus on the pursuit of magical knowledge over other values.
Warlocks often flaunt their power, using magic to alter their features.
Anyway, since each faction has six Hero types now,
should we start speculate about the different names?
Any lore people here with a clue?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 25, 2012 05:24 PM |
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As far as heroes go, the Compendium only speaks of one per faction. Calling it an iconic hero of the faction.
In case of Dungeon this is the Shadow Sorcerer. A magic user dedicated to magical lore of Shadows and to the quest for forbidden knowledge. Shadow Sorcerers accept the Dark Whispers in their mind and filter through those for the knowledge they seek. The most powerfull Shadow Socerers undergo a ritual that allows them to commune directly with Malassa. This ritual turns their eyes pupilless and black.
From which I gather that might be the basic Magic hero, or perhaps that of the Blood Path.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 05:41 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 17:43, 25 Oct 2012.
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Regardless of which type, it will probably be a blood/tear upgrade, right?
If the class is so revered, I mean.
EDIT: I just now remember that the Warlock belongs to Inferno 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 25, 2012 05:45 PM |
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Where did I say that the Class is revered?
I said it is Iconic, but that does not say much. For Example, the Paladin is the iconic Hero of Haven, but the Shaman is that of Stronghold, the Shogun that of Sanctuary, the Heretic that of Inferno, the Ranger that of Sylvan, the Death Knight of Necropolis, the Rune Mage of Fortress and the Mageblade Blademage of Academy. It says something, but not much.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 05:55 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 17:57, 25 Oct 2012.
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Since there's no way the Paladin, Shaman, Death Knight or Mageblade
are more iconic than the Knight, Barbarian, Necromancer and Wizard,
and your source only mention one hero type, I took 'iconic' to mean "lorewise, these guys are pretty important in dark elven society".
Hence revered.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 25, 2012 06:09 PM |
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Quote:
there's no way the Paladin, Shaman, Death Knight or Mageblade
are more iconic than the Knight, Barbarian, Necromancer and Wizard
My thoughts exactly. Paladin I can kind of understand but the rest..
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 25, 2012 06:16 PM |
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Quote:
and your source only mention one hero type, I took 'iconic' to mean "lorewise, these guys are pretty important in dark elven society".
Hence revered.
I think you should see it more as, these heroes are important for the lore, since they give insight in the workings of this faction.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 06:23 PM |
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That was what I was trying to do...
Still can't get over how stupid 'mageblade' sounds.
I bet there's gonna be an artifact in the expansion called "Blade of the Mageblade Mage".
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 25, 2012 06:28 PM |
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Sorry 'bout that. It's Blademage, not Mageblade.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 25, 2012 06:32 PM |
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I know its a bit OT but What are the Mageblades acording to "the book". I thought of them as a Unit rather then a hero class.
As for the topic.
I bets are on
Clan lord for basic might (Dungeon Overlord would be a nice Blood name)
Shadow conjurer (For Blood magic)
And something with whispers for Tear. But Shadow whisperer would be a nice Tear name aswell.
But Ubi is usually really overcreative when it comes to Class names i H6.
EDIT:
@War-overlord
Quote:
Sorry 'bout that. It's Blademage, not Mageblade.
Is there a difference between Blademage and Mageblade? I could only find the word "Mageblade" in the games texts so far. (In Scatha's and Merikh's bio)
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2012 06:38 PM |
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Quote:
you should see this spiritual succession that Avirosb mentioned.
If you do not then this will be my last try to persuade you before calling it a dead case.
I don't, so call it a dead case.
Oh, sure, you can construct a line from Dragon to Black Dragon to Black Dragon and from Minotaur to Minotaur. But don't you see that this is ONLY IN HINDSIGHT? Would you have said at the time of H 2 that the Minotaurs and the Black Dragons are the symbols for the Dungeon - but, for example not the Centaur, the Griffin, the Hydra or the Gargoyle?
The truth is, at the time of H 3 they were all that was left from the original line-up, since terrain had changed from Swamp/Cave to underground, a terrain that previously hadn't existed. In my book this makes the H 3 Dungeon something completely different from the H 2 Warlock town, which is simply the town with the best and most expensive creatures (which is why it has an additional money building).
ALSO THE TOWN STYLE IS DIFFERENT! You can see the Gargoyles on the spires of the Warlock town before your mind's eye, while the Dungeon is an underground fortress.
The Asylum of H 4 is something else yet again with THIEVES and BANDITS and EFREETS. The Minotaurs don't fit in at all, Medusas would be better off at Death and Black Dragons with their magical immunity... well. Doesn't matter.
As I said, if you WANT to see what they have in common - go on. I prefer to see the differences, and from that point of view we do not have a succession of games, but very separate and very different ones with very separate towns. The discussion whether something "belongs" anywhere or not is completely useless.
I mean, things are either in or out. You cannot argue that things belong somewhere because there were always there and then conclude that others do not belong, since it was the devs who put things out or in how they saw fit, not because they had been following a secret master plan.
So if they saw fit to leave creature A in and take B out, next time they may see fit to leave B in and take A out.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 25, 2012 09:09 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 21:10, 25 Oct 2012.
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As JJ said this discussion is pointless. I also get a sense of randomness with creature's affinities in each of the Heroes games. Yes there are creatures which have a solid place in each faction (like BK dark dealings with Warlocks  ). But, there have been many creatures which affinities can be interpreted in various ways. For instance, a Hydra is imo perfectly suited for H3 "swampy" Fortress faction, yet Fortress in this form was presented only in H3. Usually the swamp, which is usually it's habitat, as a dwelling, is sorta ''glued'' into a city (like in H2 or H4 for instance). The affinities also differ. One time it's because of the habitat (H3), another time because of it's chaotic nature (H4).
I won't change my opinion that H3 had the best unit line-up and stylization in the whole franchise. Most of the unit's fitted perfectly into each town, and as such, usually I'm comparing every Heroes game design choices with H3.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 25, 2012 10:18 PM |
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No one said the discussion wasn't pointless, but people kept bringing it up 
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Slayer
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2012 01:49 AM |
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Is there anything else released besides the fact that their making a xpac?
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