|
|
Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
|
posted January 23, 2013 10:26 AM |
|
Edited by Locksley at 10:34, 23 Jan 2013.
|
Thank you for enlightening me!
Some things I'd like to comment:
JollyJoker wrote:
"Yes, I think that the Dungeon is currently OP, but it's fun as well, that's why it will be difficult to balance."
... and DoubleDeck wrote:
"Are you sure you're not just loving the novelty of the new faction?Everyone thought Orcs were way OP in Heroes V too...but soon realised that they can be dealt with as well...."
I think:
It looks like that common thing where an expansion have all the cool stuff people have come up with since the original release, without paying too much attention to if it's reasonable or not. Like the minotaur... But it's fun nevertheless!
I also hope Storm-Giant is right about the patching. And DoubleDeck is spot on in this:
"I don't think dungeon will be overpowered....it all depends how you use them and any faction for that matter....most say inferno is very weak but if you use them cleverly they can be very strong...."
KingImp wrote:
"I'd say that depends on whether this Dungeon's growth rate is less than the other factions, just like in Heroes 5."
My idea:
The lower growth rate is a good tradition and would make even more sense in H6 where Dungeon is young faction. They simply have to rely on greather skills, stealth and strength.
Also, the Faceless are according the Ashan timeline described as rather few but their powers helped the dark elves to overcome both haven and sylvan and dwarves. - It sounds like they were at least champions.
The only problem is that the Dragons are more especially directly related to Malassa than the Faceless. - So, if the Dragons are in the game they are the champions. It also looks they are even fewer than the Faceless.
Because of this it would be best if Dungeon have a few but very strong Black Dragons on champion level, and have a few Faceless as very strong elites (comparable to other factions' champions).
One Champion+ and one Elite+ but still balanced thanks to lower growth.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 11:16 AM |
|
|
There is a big difference between theory and practise, and balancing the game via growth rates is QUITE limited.
You have to keep in mind, that a growth rate of 6/9 for a core (it makes no sense to have less core growth) looks pretty different than, say 9/13 or 3/4 against 4/6 for Elite - but keep in mind that all other additions are FLAT:
Say you have 2 FF buildings in town plus 1 outside dwelling plus 1 secondary hero adding another +1 for that dwelling.
For cores you suddenly have a 11/14 growth versus 14/18 and for Elites we have 7/8 versus 8/10.
14 low growth versus 18 high growth core is different from 9 versus 13 and 4 versus 7 Elites is different from 8 versus 10.
Now keep in mind that the sheer strength - HPs, damage and the other relevant stats - of a unit is one thing, while abilities are quite another. Pacification and Heal, for example. Heal is invaluable, while Pacification means death without losses for every stack that can be pacified, while in bigger armies pacification means something like the Unicorns's ability of old triggering.
Let's say that the Dungeon is a stealth faction. Your core units are 2 shooters, one with overtime damage, the second with an ability to hit more than one opposing stacks, if near each other, while the third is a high initiative melee unit that starts the battle invisible (which means the first attack will be unretaliated as well). That means, week 1 creeping you are basically served a first combat round without any retaliation damage suffered, with all your units doing damage.
Now, does it make sense to reduce Core numbers to the point of uselessness or make them very low-damage dealers? Nah, because they don't have more shooters or naturally invisible units and that advantage will be quite relative in atmy battles.
So we simply have to accept the fact that they creep like the living hell. The downside will be that ONCE ENGAGED they will get a problem, since their units are - with a few exceptions - not that durable (for example Assassins/Shades cannot compare with the other low number core tanks like Ghouls, Dogs, Wanizame, Praetorians and of course Crushers. If they are indeed hit by Crushers, uh oh - but they have to get them first. 
So that's difficult to balance, especially with a view on different game stages AND of course DUELS: in a regular game, Dungeon might be able to dare where noone else dares, maybe securing an edge (for example, taking heavily guarded additional troop production sites earlier than the rest, thereby gaining troops). However, when you make Duel armies they should reflect the same kind of twon growth, so potential advantages in sheer creeping are nullified in duels.
Lastly there is the fun factor: generally, the more "fun" it is to play a faction, the less fun it is for opponent to be on the receiving end, which is another "balance" requirement.
So all in all the aim is to have a faction with a very distinct and specific "feel", but don't go overboard with any extremes.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 01:02 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Let's say that the Dungeon is a stealth faction. Your core units are 2 shooters, one with overtime damage, the second with an ability to hit more than one opposing stacks, if near each other, while the third is a high initiative melee unit that starts the battle invisible (which means the first attack will be unretaliated as well). That means, week 1 creeping you are basically served a first combat round without any retaliation damage suffered, with all your units doing damage.
Thank you 
____________
|
|
Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 01:02 PM |
|
Edited by Locksley at 13:06, 23 Jan 2013.
|
Interesting post, and I agree completely. I developed my idea from a story perspective and in that sense I think it works very well but to put it into a playable game is kinda difficult.
Especially since the flat increase in champion growth from fortifications in the current factions of the game makes the champions more and more dominating. In a very long game (campaign for example) they can become the only stack that matters.
Quote:
Lastly there is the fun factor: generally, the more "fun" it is to play a faction, the less fun it is for opponent to be on the receiving end, which is another "balance" requirement.
What allows overpoweredness in expansions in general is probably that many people think "wow, I'll get all these cool things", but not that opponents may do the same to you. 10 years when I played a lot against the AI I didn't think too much about what was fair or not.
Quote:
So all in all the aim is to have a faction with a very distinct and specific "feel", but don't go overboard with any extremes.
Easy to say and easy to agree with.
P.S.
Your description of the stealthiness of Dungeon sounds promising!
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 01:48 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Your core units are 2 shooters, one with overtime damage, the second with an ability to hit more than one opposing stacks, if near each other, while the third is a high initiative melee unit that starts the battle invisible
So let me guess:
Lurker - overtime damage shooter
Stalker chick - shooter with ability to hit more than one (that flying disc seems it can hit multiple)
Assassin - starts invisible melee damage dealer
Although the lurker could have laser beam type shooting similiar to the arch lich from H5 (for multiple hits)....hmmmm
|
|
blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 01:57 PM |
|
Edited by blob2 at 14:07, 23 Jan 2013.
|
To sum up (IMO)
Core
Assasin -> Melee, (Shadow Strike?) Invisibility from the start of battle until first hit (and probably no retaliation after the first hit, but that's a guess)
(I wonder if this means racial is not invisibility)
Unnamed Chakram lady -> Shooter, Poisoning attack
Shadow Lurker -> Shooter, with an ability like crossbowmen (shoots units in line, or close to each other). Don't know if active or passive. Laser Eyes!
Elite
Minotaur/Minotaur Guard -> Melee, Preempetive Strike, Mighty Slash (charge active ability and pushes back units like Cyclops), 90 HP (basic probably)
Manticore/Scorpicore -> Melee, Poison Tail/Paralyzing Tail (don't know if active ability or passive ability)
Faceless -> Caster and probably Melee, Puppeteer or Mind Control (you name it  )
Champion
Shadow/Black Dragons -> Melee, Fear/Terror?, Dark Magic resistance?
Altough cores my be bit overpowered it seems, there are not ranged units in higher tiers
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 02:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
To sum up (IMO)
Core
Assasin -> Melee, Invisibility from the start of battle until first hit (and probably no retaliation after the first hit, but that's a guess)
The exact ability gives Invisibility after two turns of not attacking, and a no-retaliation attack when attacking invisible. If the Assassin becomes invisible it stays so 2 turns (remember, morale trigger counts as a turn), but attacks ending invisibility. Since the unit comes unto the BF having not attacked (X rounds), it starts invisible.
Quote:
Unnamed Chakram lady -> Shooter, Poisoning attack
It's Stalker/Chakram Dancer. This unit is currently under investigation in terms or range and abilities, and the question is what will be the abilities of the basic unit and the upgrade.
Quote:
Shadow Lurker -> Shooter, with an ability like crossbowmen (shoots unit in line, or close to each other). Don't know if active or passive. Laser Eyes!
Magic damage shooter with overtime damage.
Quote:
Minotaur/Minotaur Guard -> Melee, Preempetive Strike, Mighty Slash (charge active ability and pushes back units like Cyclops), 90 HP (basic probably)
currently under investigation, basically the same reasons as with the "Chakram Lady".
Quote:
Faceless -> Caster, Puppeteer or Mind Control (you name it )
The Faceless are pretty cool guys.
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 02:32 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If the Assassin becomes invisible it stays so 2 turns (remember, morale trigger counts as a turn), but attacks ending invisibility.
Sorry, do you mean it stays FOR 2 turns?
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 02:38 PM |
|
|
|
I mean, the Assassin stays invisible for two turns, provided he doesn't attack, is hit by indirect damage or an enemy unit comes up adjacent.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 02:40 PM |
|
|
Mass heal, an assassin's worst enemy I hate it when you get so exposed all of a sudden.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 02:47 PM |
|
|
Wait, does that mean that healing damages Dark Elves?
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 02:48 PM |
|
|
|
Yup. One of the things you should have against Dungeon.
|
|
blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 02:50 PM |
|
Edited by blob2 at 14:56, 23 Jan 2013.
|
Quote:
I mean, the Assassin stays invisible for two turns, provided he doesn't attack, is hit by indirect damage or an enemy unit comes up adjacent.
Sounds like the Assassin will be a pain... to use  Mass spells check. Enemy attacks each time A is trying to become invisible check. Blah! IMO I know it kinda suits Dark Elves and Darkness, but invisibility is not a very good idea in a turn based game, at least for me...
And about lurkers, damage over time? Do you mean it's another type of poison? Or like Cyclops eye laser burn? Penetrating Laser Beam would be better IMO. Or zig zag lasers that will not hit your units (because the crossbowmen ability hitting your units was annoying until it was changed in the patch)... but let me guess, they will shoot little eyeballs instead :/
|
|
Hermes
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 02:52 PM |
|
|
Interesting...
But no answers to my humble questions lol..
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 03:04 PM |
|
|
Can't say much about animations - no time to idle around.
Can't say anything about neutrals either, since they seem to be still under lock and key.
About the Lurkers, no, it's not poison damage. And everyone should be wary of forming pictures about anything having only half the information.
|
|
Hermes
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 03:07 PM |
|
|
|
But what about attack/death/defence animations?
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 03:18 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I mean, the Assassin stays invisible for two turns, provided he doesn't attack, is hit by indirect damage or an enemy unit comes up adjacent.
So, exactly like H5 mechanics for invisibility....except in H5 they stayed invisible indefinetaly (much longer) until all this triggered.....
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 03:32 PM |
|
|
The Dungeon Townscreen looks...*put glasses*...PURPLE
YEAAAAAH
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 03:35 PM |
|
|
|
That's actually not the problem for me. I like the colour scheme - but there is too much light in the town screen and the model on the map. Light is light, purple or otherwise, and there is simply too much of it. There'd be nothing wrong with working in "shades of shadow", so that you would have to have really look sharp to make out details...
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted January 23, 2013 03:37 PM |
|
|
That's true, for a (supposed) shadow faction, there's too much light there...
____________
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
