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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 16, 2014 08:48 PM |
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Orzie said:
the graphics for WoG 3.58f are horrible.
WoG is not about graphics, but about ERM. Their priority was to focus on scripting language + one of the best manual ever, no other game existing can match that. I would be indifferent to have something graphically polished as HoTA but no possibilities to mod it to my taste, to every gamer's taste.
New graphics keep alive a game only a limited time, while direct access to memory gives immortality, the mixture H3/wog being the proof.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2014 08:53 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 20:57, 16 Feb 2014.
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Of course. And that's what I said in my previous post.
Orzie said:
As for the WoG - still its main importance is in ERM and overall modding opportunities. Graphics is not WoG's strong point. Fortunately, it can be changed in WoG-based mods, like we all do in our own peculiar ways.
Still, I think that limited amount of editing allows to create a much more polished design. The Succession Wars Mod will be also pretending to become a full concept addon in future, with its own campaigns and such, something like enriching the Heroes of Might and Magic II (and in some way, Might and Magic VI) legacy.
In this case, I'm afraid, there will be limited editability. Things just cannot work otherwise. Either you 'continue NWC work' or try to experiment with the gameplay and other stuff. Both ways can work and some can be preferred by certain people, some are not. Things to consider.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2014 09:04 PM |
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rtx said:
It's illegal to use graphics from a game as a mod for another game, unless otherwise stated.
On nexus site guys who do it are rewarded with ban.
However, Ubisoft doesn't care about it.
MUGEN modders, for example, don't bother with use of other games graphics. They are main users of pixel-art graphics from consoles.
I think their copyright holders also don't hunt for them. It's outdated games. Maybe some of authors are dead now
But I didn't go to search deeper into this theme.
I think main question is sharing and distributing mods made from other games graphics. It's better to ask about use first, but I don't think they will ever give you answer, if you ask.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 16, 2014 09:28 PM |
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The thing is that we face today a very productive gaming era, with graphic techniques changing faster than our undies. No matter what you buy, graphics are almost always amazing.
Then you go back to your Heroes 3 mod and try by yourself to draw a creature which will probably look (if you are good) as one of polish grove creatures. I mean, concurrency is unfair, fan designer vs professional designers payed 25000$ a week.
Thus, I believe we should not be ashamed of using other games graphics as long as we don't make money from. Is about quality, not originality. The most important is what you do later with those graphics and at which point your mod becomes a master work, no matter the material used.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 16, 2014 09:34 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Thus, I believe we should not be ashamed of using other games graphics as long as we don't make money from. Is about quality, not originality. The most important is what you do later with those graphics and at which point your mod becomes a master work, no matter the material used.
Or Frankenstein-ish creatures 
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2014 09:45 PM |
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I hate both cases. If I can make good-looking creatures, I will never frankenstein (but there are some people on our Russian forum who frankenstein creatures so good that you cannot guess the origin). As for the people who cannot draw properly - well, I cannot judge them either if I cannot help them because of my lacking free time. The thing is that they should just realize that this is not perfect, and always want to improve the assets (at least, in their dreams).
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 16, 2014 09:52 PM |
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Well, Succession Wars contains at 95% graphics from another game -H2-, so it's being a bit hypocrite to spit on. 
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2014 09:59 PM |
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It is dedicated to H2. Its purpose is also to enrich H2. It positions itself as a H2 to H3 conversion (or vice versa, even we don't know for sure ourselves lol). So that H2 cannot be considered as other game, and especially, unrelated one.
Like I said, all games in HMM and MM universe can work just fine because they are tightly connected (and let's be honest, NWC did convert the assets from HMM to MM and back again - just look at this picture).
Dungeons&Dragons is a bit of other story.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 16, 2014 10:35 PM |
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Macron1 said:
MUGEN modders, for example, don't bother with use of other games graphics. They are main users of pixel-art graphics from consoles.
I think their copyright holders also don't hunt for them. It's outdated games.
there is one MUGEN modder that i know for a fact was hunted down: the guy who made the game you directed me to: TerrorDrome. it's a pity that he had to take down his own website, along with the game, and any future additions it might have had. it's also a pity that Pinhead was never finished. i would've liked to have him as the inferno captain.
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mister_kalu
Known Hero
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posted February 16, 2014 10:44 PM |
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Orzie said:
Well, we don't have the 100% identical assets, they are all fixed to fit the HMM2 graphics. Only the Palm Kingdoms graphics are taken as-is, and I got permission for using a few their old assets, so they will be present.
The portraits are being changed now, we threw away all old frankenstein or stolen designs. You can check some new WIP ones on our Russian forum branch.
As for the WoG - still its main importance is in ERM and overall modding opportunities. Graphics is not WoG's strong point. Fortunately, it can be changed in WoG-based mods, like we all do in our own peculiar ways.
I seen, the new portraits and i surprised, why? because I didn't saw none of the older portraits of the first beta. I can understand that probably some of them were ugly or bad drawn, like the monsters, ( make a entire unit that fits well with the others is really dificult) but remove all of them... i think a mistake.
That happens when new people joins to existing projects. really a shame
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 03:41 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 03:45, 17 Feb 2014.
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The portraits are stolen from War Wind 2 and Palm Kingdoms. Look, Palm Kingdoms is a humble indie game and I am personally familiar with its designer. He draws things by himself and that gives him money. You took his portraits without any permissions. Moreover, they don't fit the H2 style. These two factors are very important - the mod is growing to a higher level.
Just guess - what portrait is better? The fitting one which we made on our own or stolen one? Things to consider.
Listen - WHY should we have THIS
instead of THIS?
Why should we use frankensteins and stolen graphics which don't fit the style while we can make things with much more quality? Isn't it good and neat to have things like I show you? Isn't it cool to see new interesting characters without a thought 'ah, they just recolored the hair! it's not interesting at all, I can do the same thing in Photoshop!'.
The real shame is to receive comments like that.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 17, 2014 10:02 AM |
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I don't really understand what is going on here but I sincerely hope the mod's ongoing development is going well as I can't wait to play next version. Eerie of H2 with H3's mechanics... the dream. + Gipsy faction is uberly awesome.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 10:09 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Thus, I believe we should not be ashamed of using other games graphics as long as we don't make money from. Is about quality, not originality.
If you ask me, I don't see any quality in stealing some graphics from other sources just like that. I'm glad Orzie understands that it's not the best thing to do - because of such attitude this mod is going to be well done and well received.
____________
Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 10:15 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:26, 17 Feb 2014.
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One coffee on me for Hobbit.
The Succession Wars Mod has lots of potential to be played by a wide auditory. Thus the graphic aspects must be polished as much as possible. It's not much about perfectionism, H2 style is certainly defined and it's better to follow it.
Thank you Mister Kalu for such a great beginning and giving us a chance to improve your work. I am sure you will not be upset with the final results.
Perhaps we can restore some of your frankenstein designs if they will have enough potential to be changed to standalone portraits.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 17, 2014 11:04 AM |
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Well Hobbit, I don't ask you, and on purpose. You don't know what means work other than designing a creature, as proof your constant demands without even a little thanks in return when people sat down to create patches for you (grove/era, HoTa maps/era compatibility). And modding is a lot of things beside designing but this probably is unaccessible to you as concept.
When I say quality I mean quality of graphics, is anyone here convinced he can draw better than the professional designers from Warcraft? Is good that people try to match high standards and try to learn by themselves, but also keep in mind that mods as Grove (2 years work for several people), HoTA (7 years of work for tens of people) are only a tiny part of what is produced and widely played.
Sagamosa, for example, is made entirely from other games graphics and its strong point is still originality, a lesson of creativity to learn from the past. Wish any of us could one day approach those standards and stop playing the "moralist".
____________
Era II mods and utilities
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 11:18 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 11:37, 17 Feb 2014.
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Oh, come on.
You are allowed to do what you want in your mods. But no one here will argue that having the new asset in a proper style instead having this asset in totally unfitting style is better. And that's all.
We are capable of making the assets proper. It makes the project looking more neat and pleasurable to an eye. And you mention HotA which bears the same standards (these guys are affected by perfectionism even more).
Quote:
You don't know what means work other than designing a creature, as proof your constant demands without even a little thanks in return when people sat down to create patches for you (grove/era, HoTa maps/era compatibility). And modding is a lot of things beside designing but this probably is unaccessible to you as concept.
Stop this meaningless talk. No one says here that the work of programmers is bad. We appreciate everything the programmers made for us, and we never say the opposite. I feel deep respect to GrayFace and I am very honored to have a personal contact with him (and live in the neighbouring city actually). I also respect Berserker for such a good thing as Era and its capabilities. Not even talking about the WoG and the opportunities it provides.
Quote:
When I say quality I mean quality of graphics, is anyone here convinced he can draw better than the professional designers from Warcraft? Is good that people try to match high standards and try to learn by themselves, but also keep in mind that mods as Grove (2 years work for several people), HoTA (7 years of work for tens of people) are only a tiny part of what is produced and widely played.
Quality is the opposite of quantity, that's it. You can make anything widely played if you promote it nicely. Promotion is easier when you have beautiful graphics, with other things equal. That is all. WoG + good graphics is much stronger than WoG without good graphics.
Quote:
When I say quality I mean quality of graphics, is anyone here convinced he can draw better than the professional designers from Warcraft?
We can make it really close. These people are not geniuses, and there are a lot of talented people around who love the game and capable to make things really, really close, identical or even better. The original artists used Deluxe Paint II which is not the best instrument for digital graphics. Currently there are a lot of new instruments.
Look, when you change balance in your mods, you don't say that the creators of original H3 balance were idiots, do you? That's how we do as well. We just do what we think is necessary. We keep the H2 style in graphics and try to make our assets like they would be done by NWC. We try to do our best and put a lot of effort in it. And we get amazed comments about how cool we replicate the style. No, we are not perfect, but we want our mod to look cool.
EVERY qualified work requires a lot of time to be done, if it is made on a free basis. This is life. The thing is that HotA has a chance to become a legend. The mod without a face and a proper concept can barely make it to the next decade. It will be just known to a few enthusiasts here on HC.
Quote:
Wish any of us could one day approach those standards and stop playing the "moralist".
Stealing concepts while you try to create the 'NWC-style addon' is unacceptable. HotA does it. The Succession Wars Mod also can be like that, it has a lot of potential in reviving HMM2 legacy. The Forge town Hobbit is making can also become a part of something bigger than just another portable Era mod, one of the 60 in the list. If you are just to modify the game without such ambitions, like making the 61th mod for the list, you can do what you want. End of story.
Many people discover Era only when they discover our mod (I often have to explain the installation process for them on different info sources). We help people to get into this thing, into Era, into modding. So that our contribution to the creators of platforms and communities are also not equal to zero. Things to consider.
We Russians have a proverb: "The bigger the ship - the longer the trip".
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 11:27 AM |
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Salamandre said:
You don't know what means work other than designing a creature.
I bet designing a good looking creature and then creating a model is much more difficult than learning for example ERM. Many users here can write good scripts, while only few can create awesome models (like Alexander, Hobbit, Trith) that actually fit the game.
Also I don't see the point of this argument, if Hobbit is a graphic designer and he talks about graphics of other mod he surely know what is he saying.
About quality - well, good looking model is not always high quality for Heroes. Just look at all the rips - they are nice, but they fit horribly to the game.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 11:36 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 11:37, 17 Feb 2014.
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Oh, please, Salamandre, you seem to be a nice guy but then you just ruin it like that...
Salamandre said:
Well Hobbit, I don't ask you
...but I'm also the part of this forum and I can comment on anything I want, so cut that out.
Salamandre said:
You don't know what means work other than designing a creature, as proof your constant demands without even a little thanks in return when people sat down to create patches for you (grove/era, HoTa maps/era compatibility).
That's actually a lie. I thanked for Grove for ERA even though I didn't demand it, it's a shame you didn't notice that. But not very surprising, I have to say. Some time ago when you asked for Modern Forge for ERA, you derided me for saying it's not possible. But when Bersy said it's not possible, you were implying that it was me who asked for it and derided me again. Seriously, what is your damn problem?
HotA maps for ERA was actually a bug that I noticed, not any kind of request or whatever. Are you thanking for every bug someone repairs? I doubt that.
And I do a lot more than just "designing a creature" in modding, you know... but well, I can only be sad about what you say.
Salamandre said:
And modding is a lot of things beside designing but this probably is unaccessible to you as concept.
That doesn't mean, however, that designing isn't also important. And it IS really important, because without designs there would be no point in programming and other stuff. Of course it also works in another way, but you're right - I'm actually more of a designer and an artist, so that's what I'm criticizing that more often.
Salamandre said:
When I say quality I mean quality of graphics, is anyone here convinced he can draw better than the professional designers from Warcraft?
Better - no. But that's no excuse for stealing graphics from well-known games. And HotA actually DID prove that just some fans can do graphics as good as these made by professional artists 15 years ago. Why are you ignoring that?
Salamandre said:
Is good that people try to match high standards and try to learn by themselves, but also keep in mind that mods as Grove (2 years work for several people), HoTA (7 years of work for tens of people) are only a tiny part of what is produced and widely played.
Where did you get this 2 years and 7 years? Time in which Grove was made is actually hard to evaluate. HotA project, however, started in 2008 and the first version with Cove, one campaign and several decorations was released by 2012. So everything besides these several things was made in 2 years.
Anyhow, wasn't this time worth waiting? Because for me it was, and I hope many people will remember that faster doesn't mean better.
Salamandre said:
Sagamosa, for example, is made entirely from other games graphics and its strong point is still originality, a lesson of creativity to learn from the past.
But wouldn't Sagamosa mod be a lot better and more appealing for most players if it actually had original graphics?
See, that's the problem with your logic - you're saying that it's better to not do new original graphics because there are some mods that work fine without them, but you're ignoring mods that do have original graphics and work fine with them as well. Also, you're trying to ignore another important thing: HotA and, I think, even Grove (which I don't like, but at least it had some original graphics) are more popular than mods you're talking about.
I'm not trying to say that mods without original graphics have to be bad - I'm trying to say that mods with original graphics can be definitely better, and if we have an opportunity to do such graphics on our own, why shouldn't we? Why is there anything wrong with thinking about quality graphics? Why should we ignore the fact that e.g. HotA with well done stuff is more popular as standalone project than any other existing mod for Heroes 3? Yeah, it actually did reach the at least WoG popularity among most players.
But I'm afraid you don't really care about it, and I can only be sorry for that. You're a great modder and you did a lot of good for us all, but your attitude (not only there, also in non-HoMM part of community) is something I can't really stand.
____________
Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 11:39 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 11:44, 17 Feb 2014.
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Quote:
HotA maps for ERA was actually a bug that I noticed, not any kind of request or whatever. Are you thanking for every bug someone repairs? I doubt that.
It's not like that. HotA maps are just different from WoG's, and were never supposed to be launched via WoG. So that it's not a bug, it's just the incompatibility of 2 different mods. Treat it like that.
Also big thanks to Bersy for the plugin - now I can have HotA and Era installed simultaneously.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 11:43 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 11:43, 17 Feb 2014.
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I still see it as a bug because it's a problem with crashing just because of a map format, which isn't a problem for the original SoD where any map format other than RoE/AB/SoD is just ignored.
But if that still bothers you, then let me thank Bersy for this patch, it did help not only me but also, I can say that, many other users on AcidCave who were having the same problem.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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