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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 11:47 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 11:49, 17 Feb 2014.
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I don't know what to say to you. No, it's not a bug 
It's the incompatibility. Trust me, I do know what is programming. I don't know ERM, but I know a few languages native to other games, like Lords of Magic - HMM3 was not the first game for me to mod. HotA is just made not like SoD, nor like WoG. Its maps have another structure and data. HotA is not SoD, in particular. It's made with reverse engineering, which means that the source code differs. I am even surprised that Bersy was successful in making the plugin so fast.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 11:50 AM |
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Yeah, I know what you mean, but I still would say it's more of a bug rather than incompatibility. But whatever, I'm more guessing rather than seeing it, after all it's Bersy who's a programmer.
Enough with this offtopic, the patch is good, Bersy did a good job and that's important.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 11:51 AM |
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Actually, shall I put here the latest Warlock artwork you've done for us, or you have some more time for it?
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 12:22 PM |
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Actually I did another version, let me post it here...
I hope this is more appriopriate to your vision of this artwork.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 12:25 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 12:28, 17 Feb 2014.
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I love it! I will repost it on DF2 where the discussion is more alive.
I still worry about the illumination, but I think other aspects are finally okay.
Is it possible to make the skies a bit more bright? I just remember that standard H3 screens are all bright, so I don't know for sure how it would fit. But I love every element so much - I am a castle maniac.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 12:29 PM |
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Yeah, it's possible to brighten up the sky, but right now I have no time nor will to do something about it. As soon as I do it I'll send you bitmap version.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 12:31 PM |
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Will wait for it eagerly.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 05:45 PM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 17:51, 17 Feb 2014.
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Again rooten talks about 'stealing graphics'.
It's not 'stealing graphics' (when someone claims he made it), but 'using graphics'.
And there is common term of 'fair use' (do not claim it's yours and do not sell it and get money).
It's laughable that this talk is in thread of SW (95% of graphics is taken from other game without permissions). If you redraw Freddy Krueger, you still can be punished by "copyright owners".
In USSR art belonged to the people - everyone could take any song or drawing and use it any way he liked it. Now in Russia there are fat copyright owners everywhere with there snow laws.
Maybe USSR wasn't so bad? 
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 06:02 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 18:07, 17 Feb 2014.
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Macron1 said:
Again rooten talks about 'stealing graphics'.
It's not 'stealing graphics' (when someone claims he made it), but 'using graphics'.
And there is common term of 'fair use' (do not claim it's yours and do not sell it and get money).
It's laughable that this talk is in thread of SW (95% of graphics is taken from other game without permissions). If you redraw Freddy Krueger, you still can be punished by "copyright owners".
In USSR art belonged to the people - everyone could take any song or drawing and use it any way he liked it. Now in Russia there are fat copyright owners everywhere with there snow laws.
Maybe USSR wasn't so bad?
It wasn't so bad.
And again, dear Macron1, stop mixing things and making up the desired things as the real ones. The Succession Wars Mod is dedicated to HMM2. It is a graphic total conversion of HMM3 aiming to make it HMM2. Its maps and campaign plot is about HMM2 and continuation of HMM2 plot. It features Enroth as the place of action. In fact, it is the upgraded HMM2, in the way we see it. HMM2 is not the other game. It is the prequel of HMM3. They are connected by lore and hero concepts. The concepts are not similar, but the games are related like mother and daughter.
When you steal 3D models from Warcraft and put in the Knight town, it's a totally different thing. If you dedicated your mod to Warcraft (like Warcraft 2 graphics mod for Era), it would be nice and looking neat and consistent, because every asset is stylized. But when you take graphics from other games which are not related to HMM series in any way, not even fixing its graphics to fit to HMM style and call it a new original creature you added, I really feel sorry for you.
Quote:
If you redraw Freddy Krueger, you still can be punished by "copyright owners".
We redraw only the concepts which are related to MM and HMM series, because they are tightly connected by lore and developer. I am ready to repeat this twice, thrice and even more, until you finally understand it.
And do a search in google what is Franchise. That will help you.
And please, stop offtopic already. I thought you are conscious enough.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 06:52 PM |
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Orzie said:
But when you take graphics from other games which are not related to HMM series in any way, not even fixing its graphics to fit to HMM style and call it a new original creature you added, I really feel sorry for you.
I don't call it that way "new original creature".
If game is not related to HMM3, it doesn't mean units from it don't fit to HMM3.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 07:06 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:09, 17 Feb 2014.
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They don't. You are not an artist, and you probably just cannot understand. But not all the people are so unpretentious. There is no model which would fit to HMM3 completely, because it has a specific style.
Same with pixel graphics. They can be like in Sid Meier's Colonization, or Lemmings, or even HMM1. But they don't fit to H2. They would need a harsh reworking. (not so harsh in the case of HMM1, it's close).
In Romanian Town thread LizardWarrior made some really good progress with the consent of Fred, but his assets still need polishing. I hope he will be able to find the proper contrasting and color solutions - I want this town to be created looking good, it has a cool idea. But the monsters should also be revised. The WoG-ish native Werewolf can be probably left intact though.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 07:29 PM |
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Orzie said:
They don't. You are not an artist, and you probably just cannot understand.
There is a problem not in this.
I'm not an artist, I just want to play Dart Vader in HMM3, or aliens in HMM3.
And your aim is not to play new factions/creatures. You try to create something people will say wow. It's just different aim and reason to work on.
HMM3 is a strategy, graphics is mean part, but not main. It's like in chess - figures are drawn schematic, but that doesn't mean it's bad game.
I'll wait for final SW release. I'm a kind of pessimistic about "Napoleonic" great plans to redraw this and that. But maybe you will succeed and finally redraw all SW now has.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 07:35 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:36, 17 Feb 2014.
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We plan to just finish the parts one by one. Say, when 1.0 will be done, there will be all working scenarios, objects and classic campaigns. After that we will just develop the mod to have more cool stuff like the continuation of plot, new programming features and all that, like every consequent H3 addon did.
The plans are not so napoleonic, there is already very much work done. The more people contribute, the faster the process. We are not going to be making the mod forever.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 17, 2014 09:03 PM |
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Over time I had the joy to play and test almost all wog maps, as well the totality of mods created for Era.
From my experience, two important branches are predominant since WoG was released. At first, wog is about dynamically changing the map objects properties as a result of certain player's (including computer) actions. Of course, when the field of actions is extended ad infinitum you need rpg material, so a few objects are extracted from other games, in order to advertise the new potential.
The goal is to show that an object can now have endless properties and answer twice, trice, hundred times, at player various actions (commonly called trigger in erm language). For this any decent graphic is good, the object graphics are a tool. Not a goal. It is used to personify and materialize an idea, not to show an object.
This predominant branch continues to grow with Timothy Pulver aka Fnord productions, culminating with his MP map "Choices, where every player among all colors will have every object in the game triggering a new action, depending on the visiting color. Meanwhile the tawny Timothy Duncan, great Heroes 2 story teller and mapmaker, while mischievously hidden at twilight, seeing the immense potential WoG boiled, contacted Pulver and proposed to collaborate. The RPG Heroes 3 map is born.
Last Hope, Adjudication, Toran Rift and Thunk will become the label of the the Heroes 3 new makeup. The story for each of those scenarios would need the capacity of a real life book to fit in, and the role playing is pushed to outstanding pinnacles, while keeping original game-play. Of course, Duncan ideas outbursting, Pulver had to expand the wog limited graphics and pick here and there the absolutely needed new graphics, be it portraits, artifacts or monsters. The pattern was something along: I need a dragon for his story climax, ok I will find you a dragon graphics, several graphics are viewed, the best one visually fitting the story is picked.
I am considering my self as being part of this branch. Playing for nearly a decade the game, I was like spell-binded when I discovered Thunk for example, and this is how I learned erm. That day I foresaw the enormous potential it has for Heroes and spent all my free time to reach my goal. First two scenarios were kind of warm up, but when Darkloke found a way to extract creatures from WoW and the big bell chimed in my head: 300 spartans, with its amazing elephants, hoplites and immortals.
For those who played StarGate, they know how mesmerizing are the chinese or athos planets, well the graphics are from x or y games. It took me several months of trials to match them until they show like organic part of the game.
The second important branch comes from Poland. Tiny bells were announcing it almost everywhere, but the Poles did it first, it was the Grove. Now Graphics are made for Graphics. They are the goal. We must create a new town. It makes no sense to create a new town with other games graphics. It must be unique.
This branch reached its peak with HoTA, recently.
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After exploring the totality of WoG/Era mods and HoTA I understand that people can aim to different goals, following their own sensibility and culture. As long as everyone remains creative and gives the best of him self-in the tiny free time we all have-, I see no point on arguing which branch is best, there is no such.
Saying that Sagamosa would be better with original graphics is as superficial as saying that Kant's The Critique of Pure Reason would be better if the cover was 100% original color. This only show how little you understand about Sagamosa and WoG history, Orzie. Seeing that you recently joined this forum, as SW tester first, I give you the benefit of the doubt. You are doing a great SW promotion, but please...don't tell us what is good or not when making mods, you lack the experience to do so. For now.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted February 17, 2014 09:11 PM |
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Write a book, Sal
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 17, 2014 10:14 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 23:41, 17 Feb 2014.
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Orzie said:
There is no model which would fit to HMM3 completely, because it has a specific style.
Same with pixel graphics. They can be like in Sid Meier's Colonization, or Lemmings, or even HMM1. But they don't fit to H2. They would need a harsh reworking. (not so harsh in the case of HMM1, it's close).
In Romanian Town thread LizardWarrior made some really good progress with the consent of Fred, but his assets still need polishing.
"no model which would fit to HMM3 completely"...
what about this mutant zombie? does he not fit with HoMM3 graphics?
of course, the mz took a "harsh reworking". but honestly, all you have to have is the right formula to make something from another game fit HoMM3 graphics(and not just copy/paste something). that formula might have to be long and arduous, but it can still work. for many graphics, anyway. HoMM2 graphic are different enough from HoMM3 graphics to make my point here(which i'm sure you already know, through your work on this mod).
i helped lw, "consent" is the wrong word, i think. it would imply that i was allowing him to listen to me. that situation didn't require authority, just a desire to help someone.
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EDIT: i just realized that that mz i posted before was the old one, and not the finished version. i changed the pic to show the finished version of the mz.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted February 18, 2014 12:47 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 00:51, 18 Feb 2014.
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Quote:
Saying that Sagamosa would be better with original graphics is as superficial as saying that Kant's "The Critique of Pure Reason" would be better if the cover was 100% original color. This only show how little you understand about Sagamosa and WoG history, Orzie. Seeing that you recently joined this forum, as SW tester first, I give you the benefit of the doubt. You are doing a great SW promotion, but please...don't tell us what is good or not when making mods, you lack the experience to do so. For now.
I find the way you ignored my post hilarious since I have 5-6 years of experience in modding as a designer. Seriously though, if you have no clue what we're talking about (and you definitely don't, comparing game graphics to book's cover art is just ridiculous), maybe you should just leave graphical stuff to artists instead of convincing them they shouldn't care about their arts' quality?
I don't mind the rest of your post, but if you have a right to say what's good and what's not when it comes to programming, then why shouldn't we do the same with graphics?
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 18, 2014 02:22 AM |
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What do you want me to answer? Your posts are made around the idea that I am criticizing self-made graphics, therefore your work; I never said such thing. Is probably you who need such misunderstanding so your arguments will be sharper or?
This is why I made the long post explaining how and from where WoG and graphics perspective evolved. I totally agree that graphics originality matters when you work on a new town.
If you read carefully all posts, who lacks tolerance, me who says "let people use what they want/can do" or you two who who keep repeating same leit-motif: using other games graphics is stealing. The majority of us here are thieves to you?
My first post was about personal behavior based on historical facts, not your work. I still think that the post characterizing your the best is, at this moment, our missing moderator Cepheus calling you a bickering non-constructive detractor of other's work. And if you browse today the first page of that thread you will maybe see what's wrong.
And I apologize to Orzie, I came back from work late, tired and I messed his and Hobbit posts. The Sagamosa example was posted by Hobbit, so last my answer should be considered redirected or null.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 18, 2014 04:05 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 04:10, 18 Feb 2014.
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fred79 said:
Orzie said:
what about this mutant zombie? does he not fit with HoMM3 graphics?
Honestly - yes, it still looks a bit alien. I don't know what to change in it particularly, but probably darken his back edge a bit (the outline) and get rid of the purple color totally (it is very notable on his left hand - the pixels are visible).
Quote:
Saying that Sagamosa would be better with original graphics is as superficial as saying that Kant's The Critique of Pure Reason would be better if the cover was 100% original color. This only show how little you understand about Sagamosa and WoG history, Orzie. Seeing that you recently joined this forum, as SW tester first, I give you the benefit of the doubt. You are doing a great SW promotion, but please...don't tell us what is good or not when making mods, you lack the experience to do so. For now.
I don't say everything you do is wrong. I just say that if you make a proper graphic asset to complete your maps/mods, they will have a lot more penetration ability through the mass of lo-fi mods. You shall not underestimate this aspect - say, in your StarGate Atlantis you could use at least Photoshop and even MS Paint to make your characters simply fit more. Wouldn't be that good? You drew a fantastic beautiful map with 9 planets, but why the characters are not fixed to be neat like that? It is possible to make them in this way. It is just more professional. The fans will be just more pleased to play in the mod like that, and this mod will simply live longer.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted February 18, 2014 04:10 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Your posts are made around the idea that I am criticizing self-made graphics, therefore your work [...] My first post was about personal behavior based on historical facts, not your work.
No, no, no, I know you're not criticizing my or Orzie's work, and I know you're not criticizing self-made graphics themselves, so sorry for misunderstanding. What I actually said is that you're trying to convince us that there's no difference in quality or whatever between self-made graphics and "rips", and as an artist I have to disagree with that. The reason was already explained in this thread.
As I said, I didn't mind the rest of your post, I did however criticize you for using arguments like "You don't understand history of this" or "You lack the experience" etc. in the discussion about mods' quality. Making a good Heroes 3 mod doesn't require knowledge about WoG beginnings.
And I did criticize you for not caring about graphical side of mods. In the whole discussion neither me nor Orzie said anything like "Who cares about programming, it's not a big deal when mods are bugged and crash a lot". And by your logic we could say that, since we're not professional programmers who get paid real money.
For me personally graphics from other games are often like bugs in program code - there of course are people who don't mind them, but that doesn't make them as good as well-done graphics improved just for this particular mod.
Salamandre said:
If you read carefully all posts, who lacks tolerance, me who says "let people use what they want/can do" or you two who who keep repeating same leit-motif: using other games graphics is stealing. The majority of us here are thieves to you?
Okay, I apologize for using such word, it is a bit offensive and everyone who got offended by that - I'm sorry. I'm still against using other games' graphics in final product, but you're right, "stealing" is not a good word for that.
Salamandre said:
I still think that the post characterizing your the best is, at this moment, our missing moderator Cepheus calling you a bickering non-constructive detractor of other's work. And if you browse today the first page of that thread you will maybe see what's wrong.
Read carefully your own links, please, before making such statements. Cepheus didn't call me a bickering non-constructive detractor of other's work in this post. He said: All I ask is that there are to be no further non-constructive detractions from Bersy's titanic work here.
Furthermore, I still don't understand what Cepheus actually wanted to say in that post when he said above and "insults from Hobbit". If you browse first two pages of this thread, you will notice that all I asked for was if ERA could work as non-WoG (and Bersy actually did later think about doing such thing) and explained what I wanted to say. After some polite discussion with Bersy you and Alustor attacked me and insulted me because... I don't know, you were annoyed by the whole idea of non-WoG addons? You didn't want to see me in this thread? I have no idea, and I'm still curious about where was all that "bickering" and "insulting" from me.
Seriously, give me at least ONE example on first two pages of this thread. Right now I just feel that whatever I say in whatever thread, there will always be someone trying to attack me and in the end all will be just my fault because apparently all of my opinions no matter how polite are insults. I'm not saint and I know I do a lot of things wrong, but don't expect me to be all good all of the sudden if you fail in explaining what I am doing wrong!
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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This thread is pages long: 
