|
|
orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
posted February 01, 2017 06:18 PM |
|
Edited by orzie at 18:24, 01 Feb 2017.
|
Quote:
Anyway I don't expect anyone to listen to this
Wisdom be granted to ye. 
Hint: I never listen to posts with argumentation like "it's obvious" and "save yourselves from an embarassment".
Too many game designers per square meter.
____________
|
|
lujo
Hired Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 06:26 PM |
|
Edited by lujo at 18:28, 01 Feb 2017.
|
orzie said:
Quote:
Anyway I don't expect anyone to listen to this
Wisdom be granted to ye.
Hint: I never listen to posts with argumentation like "it's obvious" and "save yourselves from an embarassment".
Too many game designers per square meter.
On the other hand my rule is that someone who can actually code should not be allowed any opinon in regards to game design. There's no way they can be good enough AT both at the same time. Edited.
I wrote all that so that someone might see someone tell you senisble stuff and it not being listened to 
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 06:26 PM |
|
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 06:28 PM |
|
|
@lujo
that's not very nice lol
cherish our modders and be nice to them mate, I don't agree with all the choices myself but it's not like dealing with Erwin, they spend their day to give us nice things to play for free and with any luck you will be able to mod the mod to be less terrible to you later, no good to lay into them with prejudice like that lol
btw bear in mind many of these lineup choices are NWC lineup choices based on Might and Magic 6 which extends the world of Heroes 2 lol
____________
|
|
lujo
Hired Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 06:33 PM |
|
Edited by lujo at 18:35, 01 Feb 2017.
|
Ok I'm sorry, I won't reply anymore, I've just had way enough in life with modders (or even programmers). They're all essenitally the same, it's like I wrote up there. These days I just slap down the obvious adivce, season it heavily with insults they should have been getting from honest and straightforward freinds and that's that.
It's there. All that happens if it's listened to is a better mod, and if it's not listend to is whatever happens. As I said, folks will be so thrilled to see H2 graphics they won't care how bad it is, there'll be enough praise.
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 06:39 PM |
|
|
you certainly have an axe to grind lol
____________
|
|
orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 06:46 PM |
|
Edited by orzie at 19:06, 01 Feb 2017.
|
Don't care much, to be honest. That's the rudest and the most self-assured example I've seen yet throughout the whole modding experience. Some people just can't take it when things don't go their way. 
I also find it funny how I became a coder. Need to tell OxFEA that he's fired. 
____________
|
|
Macron1
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:30 PM |
|
Edited by Macron1 at 19:33, 01 Feb 2017.
|
lujo said:
Necromancer: Moving the only shooter the castle has that far up the tech tree makes no sense, you really should not have swapped it and the knight.
There I totally agree. Necropolis has only one shooter, and now it's almost impossible to buy liches in first weeks.
In Kivo's SW Mod we had ghouls that were shooters and balanced Necropolis pretty right. Now last signs of balance are gone.
Maybe only way is to give skeleton upgrade an ability to shoot, if creators want to make Death Knight 5th or 6th layer.
lujo said:
Warlock: The beholder is both awful an unnecesary.
Totally agree. Warlock lineup has 4 flying creatures, Carl!
Beholder has only head and looking silly. I think it must be moved to future Inferno to give them something flying or to be neutral unit.
|
|
DrSlash
Hired Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:31 PM |
|
|
lujo said:
On the other hand my rule is that someone who can actually code should not be allowed any opinon in regards to game design.
Good thing you're not a programmer, then! Too bad that didn't make you any less ignorant in regards to game design, though.
____________
|
|
Macron1
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:34 PM |
|
|
DrSlash said:
Too bad that didn't make you any less ignorant in regards to game design, though.
Some of his ideas are right.
|
|
orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:35 PM |
|
Edited by orzie at 19:40, 01 Feb 2017.
|
Macron1 said:
lujo said:
Necromancer: Moving the only shooter the castle has that far up the tech tree makes no sense, you really should not have swapped it and the knight.
There I totally agree. Necropolis has only one shooter, and now it's almost impossible to buy liches in first weeks.
In Kivo's SW Mod we had ghouls that were shooters and balanced Necropolis pretty right. Now last signs of balance are gone.
Maybe only way is to give skeleton upgrade an ability to shoot, if creators want to make Death Knight 5th or 6th layer.
Necromancer in Heroes 2 (as well as in Heroes 3) was completely not about shooters. Don't wanna go into details like that, all of this has been discussed for a million times at the stages of concept development. The only really questionable aspects are, in fact, the MMVI creatures (because there are people who didn't play the RPG part of the series and they cannot recognize some of them, like the Beholder - which is completely not about H2 where you see a creature and know its name without looking in the info because of a generalized concept), and the Knight lineup which doesn't have any fliers. We will try to manipulate with the Ballistics and related bonuses for Knights in future.
Macron1 said:
Some of his ideas are right.
I've already understood that every single person has its own vision of Heroes 2. I prefer expressing my view with arguments and base my decisions on a selection of advantages and disadvantages.
Trusting to a person who offer adding jaguar-headed creatures to a game which utilizes classic fairy-tales, greek mythology or anglo-saxon assets is a dead end, no matter how sneering is the tone of the statement and how great is the degree of self-assurance. Seen it all before numerous times.
____________
|
|
Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:40 PM |
|
|
lujo said:
Ok I'm sorry, I won't reply anymore, I've just had way enough in life with modders (or even programmers). They're all essenitally the same, it's like I wrote up there. These days I just slap down the obvious adivce, season it heavily with insults they should have been getting from honest and straightforward freinds and that's that.
It's there. All that happens if it's listened to is a better mod, and if it's not listend to is whatever happens. As I said, folks will be so thrilled to see H2 graphics they won't care how bad it is, there'll be enough praise.
That's not the problem.
Your arguments such as "Satyr is greek and nothing else here is greek" or "Warlock is medieval stuff and hybrids and medieval hybrids" do not make sense. There is no logic in that, and one can't even understand clearly what you are writing (due to your poor english).
I don't want to be harsh, but if you have a suggestion to make, calm down, take your time, don't express senseless frustration with sentences such "The beholder is both awful an unnecesary", and give sound and reasonable logical arguments.
|
|
lujo
Hired Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:42 PM |
|
Edited by lujo at 19:44, 01 Feb 2017.
|
orzie said:
Don't care much, to be honest. That's the rudest and the most self-assured example I've seen yet throughout the whole modding experience. Some people just can't take it when things don't go their way.
I also find it funny how I became a coder. Need to tell OxFEA that he's fired.
Ah, so you are not in fact a coder? Just what are you then? You seem to be the person spreading all the "it's been disussed to death" crap around with a big shovel, while at the same time basically none of these things would have survived a single discussion between inteligent and knowlegeable human beings.
There is no my way or your way or anyone's way, it's not art, it's a science. The only way to think there's place for opinion in this if you're ignorant or just plain stupid. All I've said is the same as the necromancer thing just above, except the necromancer thing happens to be obvious. Just about every single change on the roster is that level of clueless or even just tone-deaf.
And again, this is plain to see, and I don't care if you listen to me, because it's your embarassment and not mine. Insulting you will, according to science, just cause you to turtle up more, and when I see someone be this stupid and this swelled up from undeserved pride I don't even want them to take good advice.
What I wrote back there is the feedback those roster changes deserve, no more and no less.
-
And the "he's the only greek guy" thing, if you don't understand that then you have 0 idea about how castles were designed, and you don't know mythology. Really, someone else made basically the exact same comment it's obvious to anyone who went to a decent highschool.
|
|
orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:43 PM |
|
Edited by orzie at 19:45, 01 Feb 2017.
|
Ah, a statement about Sorceress with its Greek Phoenixes or Celtic Druids, or Tolkien-styled dwarves alongside with Elves stylized under Robin Hood being all nordic sums it all up.
Quote:
Insulting you will, according to science, just cause you to turtle up more, and when I see someone be this stupid and this swelled up from undeserved pride I don't even want them to take good advice.
Good time on Heroes Community.
____________
|
|
DrSlash
Hired Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:49 PM |
|
|
Macron1 said:
Some of his ideas are right.
If you think about it... they are not. There are perfectly good reasons and years of discusssions behind each creature being exactly where they are right now, and then that one guy comes up and says it's all wrong just because he said so, without putting any thought into his own post or thinking about consequences of those changes.
What people are forgetting is that HoMM2 balance was very different from the thrid game. The Knight had no fliers in a game where flying units could reach any place on the battlefield in one turn. That's why Necromancers lack low-level shooters — they has a different style of gameplay with other means of fighting neutrals in early game.
____________
|
|
lujo
Hired Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:52 PM |
|
Edited by lujo at 20:21, 01 Feb 2017.
|
orzie said:
Ah, a statement about Sorceress with its Greek Phoenixes or Celtic Druids, or Tolkien-styled dwarves alongside with Elves stylized under Robin Hood being all nordic sums it all up.
Dwarves, druids and elves (and also robin hood for that matter) are all northern european mythology. so is the unicorn and so are, to a degree faeries. The phoenix is greek, yes, but the designers were always struggling to fill out the top niche. Tolkien is largely, on purpose and by his own admittance, a fan and adapter of nothern european mythology
Satyrs are greek parodies of county folk and barbarians, and cyclops are much the same thing, a sybol of a powerfull, well, crass dickhead to be exact. I happen to know both of those facts rather well because those have been used in literature up to well, today, in the exact same way around the mediterranean.
They kept the greek hybrid monsters along with their medieval descendants at warlock, with the lore being that they are results of experiments. They kept the non-greek stuff at sorceress as separate, apart from the phoenix obviously (the locker room hur dur humor of the sorcersss having the red tower as her top building was irresistable, see H1 graphic it's very intentionally as phalic as the could get away with). They had the tolkinean orc stuff, which he did expand upon as originally orcs were just parodies of mongols really, anyway they kept it at barbarian but they gave him the most appropriate greek unit becuase they were always struggling to fill the top spot and cyclops is as barbaric as they come.
This is obvious if you've gone to a highschool ffs, and it's also obvious that it was obvious to guys who made the game. Saying this makes no sense is basically saying "I've read very little, my schooling is not adequate for developing informed opinons, and I don't well enough understand even things I'm a fan of". This isn't random, it only seems random if you're an ignorant peasant.
|
|
orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:52 PM |
|
Edited by orzie at 19:56, 01 Feb 2017.
|
DrSlash said:
Macron1 said:
Some of his ideas are right.
If you think about it... they are not. There are perfectly good reasons and years of discusssions behind each creature being exactly where they are right now, and then that one guy comes up and says it's all wrong just because he said so, without putting any thought into his own post or thinking about consequences of those changes.
What people are forgetting is that HoMM2 balance was very different from the thrid game. The Knight had no fliers in a game where flying units could reach any place on the battlefield in one turn. That's why Necromancers lack low-level shooters — they has a different style of gameplay with other means of fighting neutrals in early game.
Can't say Heroes 2 were balanced though. Yet, I decided to push a conservative politics, the factions would go total mess otherwise with the help of such "designers" who offer putting Medusas and Hydras in one faction just because they are "greek", not giving attention to the gameplay role of the Medusa and the fact that its concept is already duplicating that of the Hydra, also completely unfitting to the Warlock's color scheme.
____________
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted February 01, 2017 08:07 PM |
|
|
lujo, you need booted from hc. this is one of a few places where homm modders come to be productive, and not have their extensive work and person insulted by overzealously opinionated people who produce NOTHING. gtFo. 
|
|
majaczek
Supreme Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 08:30 PM |
|
|
Lujo, you have some nice ideas, but you are too rude. And fred is right about that SW Team already done something, and You Lujo produced opinions but not the wares. Well I prefer moderators teach you something (and death/banishment isn't a lesson since you can't convert to the good). So I think you better learn to be polite, or moderators would have to make you have winter holidays 
I am sorry Orzie for hijacking your topic, but excuse me :|
|
|
revolut1oN
Famous Hero
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 08:35 PM |
|
|
lujo said:
blablabla
Hey, you were supposed to not reply anymore!
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
