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DrSlash
Hired Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 04:33 PM |
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Edited by DrSlash at 16:34, 02 Feb 2017.
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Wind_Falcon said:
If people here don't see any value in a discussion/criticism/suggestion/point/opinion or whatever else they have been labeled to dismiss them, they don't see any value in it. They just disagree and nothing else can be done.
Not true. The team does listen to suggestions and constructive criticism as long as it's backed up by good arguments. In fact, a number of changes to town lineups have already been made in the past few weeks after a picture of what was supposed to be the final creature lineups has been posted.
The main problem was not only with the attitude of that post, but with the fact that the poster has no idea whatsoever of what he is talking about and his lack of any actual argumentation. "It's obvious to anyone who went to a decent highschool" is not an argument, it's demagoguery.
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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 05:01 PM |
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I said "a discussion/criticism/suggestion/point/opinion...", meaning specific instances. I didn't mean to say that they don't listen at all (though they do seem to come across as having thought through what they want out of the mod and have closed the book on accepting suggestions). And I wasn't talking only about the SWM folks, but the general attitudes in the thread.
I think he does give argumentation, like the comments about myth origination and gameplay and balance, which all seems to generally be in line with NWC's thinking.
But even if you don't think that's sufficient, the ideas even on their own should be examined/analyzed, and compared to what has been shown.
Of course it would be easier if we knew the thought process that went behind the team's decisions in the first place, since now we are kinda shooting blind.
It would be great to hear what problems the team has identified and why they think this is the best way to approach them, or in what way specific suggestion would be for the worse in more detail (orzie just gave e brief glimpse into such a problem in his last post).
Like I said, constructive. Not just "me like, me don't like, me think you dumb dumb" ad infinitum.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 02, 2017 06:22 PM |
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well we will talk about the content of the post then, here are the dilemmas of the team broken down lol
the only thing you could put instead of the Crossbowman that fits the H2 legacy, is another guy with a same sword or pike or whatever weapon, or a Monk/Cleric which is the Druid again and adds more religious to it (who maybe could heal I don't know), or a Ballista (which I would use one of those last two but that is just my uninformed and stupid opinion) lol
the Barbarian gets the Harpy is the only combination that really makes sense, because otherwise Warlock gets NEITHER Agar creature of MM6 (Cockatrice and Beholder) which would be really dumb, while Barbarian gets stuck with another redundant animal like a Cobra, while to give the Barbarian a flyer it always lacked, only makes sense to me to plug an obvious weakness of that town, also the Harpy is rugged as is in the Barbarian region in MM6 so that is by far the best match, much more than a Satyr or whatever have you lol
for the Sorceress (like the Barbarian) the notion of everything is Nordic or everything is Tolkien, is just rubbish IMO, because obviously the top creature is not,
there is absolutely **** all suitable to borrow for this faction in MM6 or even King's Bounty, forcing you to look elsewhere or make something up, of which Pegasus, Dendroid and Dragon are ruled out in H3 lore, so do you want a Leprechaun, a Satyr, a Wisp or an animal, choose one lol
the Warlock from pure lore alone gets either Beholder or the Cockatrice, period, choose one lol
for the Wizard for one thing it does not make much sense to talk about reshuffling the existing Boar or Gargoyle to do Heroes 3 because that is ******* up the NWC vision of Heroes 2 to do your own subjective game, which is far more up for outrage and debate than mere expanding of the game,
I personally do not fully agree with adding a Gnome race to Enroth as a choice, personally I would look at using an Ooze or something else, but it is very difficult to find a very fitting extra creature for this town with a Heroes 2 basis lol
for the Witch if you will think the Tribesman is racist you must talk to NWC who invented him, the Toad and the Lizardman are both founded in H2 and MM6 whether goofy or not, based on MM6 one could add a number of other subjective creatures for this town such as Bat, Rat, Snake, Ooze, Blood Sucker, Giant Lizard/Dinosaur, Cockatrice, Spider or Werewolf, but bear in mind you need to hold some of these for Inferno faction too lol
the sand faction using the neutrals plus the Varn Guardian is all you can do because the neutrals got the sand background in H2 lol
then for Inferno you get a Demon and Devil based on MM6 and pick more out of the above list or make your own **** up with no basis, now tell me what are you going to do based on these marching orders so I can come in as a punter and call your choices terrible and call you a stupid dopey idiot who did not go to high school and has only half a brain lol
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted February 02, 2017 06:24 PM |
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Edited by AlHazin at 19:03, 02 Feb 2017.
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This thread is no place for unproductive debates and sterile exchanges of subjective ideas.
Lujo, if you come with this approach you'll end up like a very talented player in the younger days of the series, whose immaturity ruined all the skills he had to offer.
Fix your behaviour, otherwise find more suited places for the kind of speech you have to offer.
Salamandre said:
Camels.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 06:43 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 19:14, 02 Feb 2017.
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verriker said:
based on MM6 one could add a number of other subjective creatures for this town such as Bat, Rat, Snake, Ooze, Blood Sucker, Giant Lizard/Dinosaur, Cockatrice, Spider or Werewolf
The Ooze was once discussed but we haven't yet find a way to imagine it as a H2 creature without reimagining its design. Heroes 2 creatures cannot be so low in height, all enemy attack animations would not make much sense if an Ooze was to be attacked.
The Werewolf is currently in development.
The Blood Sucker (a simpler name probably should be found to be more satisfying to Heroes 2 style names, so to say, where you look at a creature and can name it without looking in the description - which is sometimes hard for some MM6 assets) can probably be implemented for the new Heretic faction.
The Cockatrice (Agar's Pet) was planned by me as a strong neutral creature being able to cast random Berzerk on enemies in a mechanism similar to Azure Dragons' Fear spell in H3. This neutral is intended to be used extensively in the new campaigns. In the lore of MM6, Cockatrices are not about stone gaze, but about madness instead, just like the Beholders - but a regular lineup creature shouldn't have such a powerful ability.
Spiders are, you know, a bit too simple and we anyway have Dervish's niche currently seated by Manticore (previously there was a simple Scorpion). There are not enough reasons to add a simple giant insect/mammal since we do not require any fillers except for the Wizard where the Gnome is the most questionable (but not because of the mythology, but because of the small height and required visual re-design).
Trying to orient on pure mythology is not about our approach. Visuals and overall perception of a castle lineup by an ordinary player not familiar with the exact origin of each creature is much closer to the initial idea of Heroes 2 - that's why we have Greek Cyclops and quasi-Nordic Trolls in the same faction. These thugs just fit together nicely and it is a well-known cliche. Heroes 1 lineups are mostly built on such cliches.
NWC just did what they like. We are more limited if we are trying to stay in the gaps.
WindFalcon said:
I think he does give argumentation, like the comments about myth origination and gameplay and balance, which all seems to generally be in line with NWC's thinking.
He opposes NWC's thinking by offering to rearrange classic H2 lineups to his own preferences not caring about the graphic style of creatures as well (like the fact that the Gargoyle was not designed for the Wizard, it's snowing grey and it originally belongs to the Warlock since the times of H1), and making incorrect statements about the "mythological precision" of the lineups, confusing "nordic" assets with "anglo-saxon with some Tolkien flavor" in terms of the Sorceress, calling Phoenix "nordic" (sic), calling Barbarian "nordic" instead of "cliched fantasy thugs with much Tolkien flavor and a long story of reimagination in popular culture" disregarding that the Cyclops is a Greek concept at the same time, putting Halflings and Gnomes alike because he looked inside Tolkien's head disregarding that in popular culture Halflings and Gnomes are entirely different beings, etc., etc., etc. And all of this is put on top of the fact that sole mythology was not the primary criteria for castle lineups since the Knight is anglo-saxon, Necromancer is a Monster Squad type of thing, Wizard is composed of Tolkien, Jewish mythology and some fillers, the list can be continued.
And all of this is put on top of the fact that none of the actually Nordic concepts, like the Yeti, or the Svartalfar, or Fenrir, or Thor, or the Frost Giants are present in Heroes 1-2. A popular imagination of Nordic assets could only include Yeti since Svartalfar are transformed to Elves and re-designed under Robin Hood to fit more to the anglo-saxon theme of the Sorceress.
If you need more details, read Tracy Iwata's message about the creatures. "I was given a list of creatures to make and the game box size restrictions to fit them into". The lineups were defined and unchanging them in a H1 sequel was intentional. I am going to follow the same rule where possible.
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WindFalcon, this is the first and the last time I ask you to stop flaming in this thread. I am tired of this pointless discussion, it's not helping and you should probably read the forum a little more and stay here a little longer before giving advice how to live, behave and create to people who's been doing it here for a good while already. Just a thought.
This person insulted me for a few times intentionally and is proud of that fact, so you're not the one to judge my attitude here. I am not open to suggestions, but I can explain my choices if I am asked to. Preferably, without insults.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 02, 2017 07:13 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 19:17, 02 Feb 2017.
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Orzie said:
The Ooze was once discussed but we haven't yet find a way to imagine it as a H2 creature without reimagining its design. Heroes 2 creatures cannot be so low in height, all enemy attack animations would not make much sense if an Ooze was to be attacked.
The Werewolf is currently in development.
The Blood Sucker (a simpler name probably should be found to be more satisfying to Heroes 2 style names, so to say, where you look at a creature and can name it without looking in the description - which is sometimes hard for some MM6 assets) can probably be implemented for the new Heretic faction.
The Cockatrice (Agar's Pet) was planned by me as a strong neutral creature being able to cast random Berzerk on enemies in a mechanism similar to Azure Dragons' Fear spell in H3. This neutral is intended to be used extensively in the new campaigns. In the lore of MM6, Cockatrices are not about stone gaze, but about madness instead, just like the Beholders - but a regular lineup creature shouldn't have such a powerful ability.
Spiders are, you know, a bit too simple and we anyway have Dervish's niche currently seated by Manticore (previously there was a simple Scorpion). There are not enough reasons to add a simple giant insect/mammal since we do not require any fillers except for the Wizard where the Gnome is the most questionable (but not because of the mythology, but because of the small height and required visual re-design).
Trying to orient on pure mythology is not about our approach. Visuals and overall perception of a castle lineup by an ordinary player is much closer to the initial idea of Heroes 2 - that's why we have Greek Cyclops and quasi-Nordic Trolls in the same faction. These thugs just fit together nicely and it is a well-known cliche. Heroes 1 lineups are mostly built on such cliches.
for sure that even when you are done ticking as many boxes as you can for the H2 legacy and mythos, one must also then evaluate whether the faction is even balanced, cohesive, has good synergy and looks halfway decent together in a lineup lol
it is very, very difficult and subjective to satisfy most of the fans while also being faithful to the limited information of the games and certainly does not warrant being upset with a big nasty rant if one disagrees with some or all things, rather a polite gentleman's exchange of opinions, personally I think there is much to be grateful for that you are applying this level of quality control and consideration already and are willing to justify your choices lol
I think you are making the perfect possible choices for the most part and am excited to see all of the new creatures in development lol
btw with regard to the necessary Ooze redesign perhaps the Bubble Man or Breeder Slime would offer a decent basis to work from lol
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 07:18 PM |
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Yeah, older MM concepts were also suggested once, but in general the height of a hypothetical Ooze should be no less than a full hex. Heroes 2 didn't have so low-height creatures so there is a big risk that people won't approve/feel that something is wrong about the creature, while we already have the Beholder which is questionable for everyone who didn't play MM6 (but nevertheless claims himself as a follower of NWC ideas, hah).
I also thought once about the combat abilities of such creature, but nothing except magic resistance didn't come in mind. Probably, that's for later - currently we don't have niches to fill anyway, except the Wizard's Gnome (but that was really the lesser evil, nothing else really fit good enough without duplicating the existing concepts).
But to be perfectly honest, the Ooze might suit well for a Heroes 2 Forge-inspired faction 
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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 07:29 PM |
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I said I agree with many of the things he talked about (which is obvious since many of the things I commented before that I don't like, he echoed), not every point he made, and definitely not with everything he had to say why a change should be made. I also don't think the classic HII line up should be changed, or that Phoenix is Northern Europe mythology etc. But the Knight and Necropolis changes make more sense imo, and the general criticism was on point, even if the suggestions might not be the best, at least for this mod, which tries to be more conservative, but some of them are very interesting regardless, just for a different mod maybe.
Why do you act as if I champion everything he said/have to be convinced of anything? Again, everything I've been talking about is to have a healthy discussion, not Internet peen points for showing how wrong someone is. People here continue to devolve it at every opportunity...
orzie, why do you lie that I have flamed in this thread, when I have never done such a thing, easily verifiable by anyone that goes back to re-read past posts??? I don't even post that often to incur such a reaction. I've also been reading these forums for about a decade, my account registration date and posting frequency notwithstanding, so drop this patronizing bullsnow.
Which discussion are you tired of? Because I haven't participated in this one, except with the exception of these two sentences:
Wind_Falcon said:
I actually agree with many (though not all) of the things he has proposed. The Knight and Necromancer changes aren't even that out of line with what has already been shown by orzie.
The rest of my post/s (whole 3 them, yeah I know, so many), came after the pages of vitriol (the actual "discussion" you are tired of) I had to sift through hoping to read something of interest, and evidently made the horrible thing to call for the end of childish petty bickering.
Like I said, this is the Internet. Putting yourself/your work out there, you are bound to get insulted, whatever you do. No need every time a comment that's not "10/10 best mod" gets posted the thread to devolve into snow flinging and acting like a victim.
And again, my posts, including this one, are not targeting you specifically (this is the first one addressing you actually), but all the posters. And are not meant to stir snow further, but exactly the opposite, calling for things to get more relaxed and friendly (yes, even when getting insulted/nastyness your way, which I have been in this thread too).
Edit: I echo everything verriker has said in his last post.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 02, 2017 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 19:34, 02 Feb 2017.
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Lujo, insults are never part of productive conversation and are in fact against HC Rules. This is your warning to stop antagonizing other members. If you can't post without resorting to insults you probably should refrain from posting at all.
Let's please return to the topic at hand.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 07:34 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 19:46, 02 Feb 2017.
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UPD. sorry, sent this post too late.
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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 07:49 PM |
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Trust me, I don't like writing these posts (you do see the reaction I get, right?), but I did because I want there to be a "common tongue" in the thread exactly because I want the thread to be about "constructive opinions on the mod aspects". But this can't be achieved without honesty and dissenting opinions, and sometimes they come hand-in-hand with things we don't like, unfortunately. It's also time people stop acting as if they haven't contributed to the nastyness.
I have tried to be constructive, and again apologize if I've come across otherwise.
orzie, different corners of the Internet have their own rules (and as far as I know I haven't overstepped the HC ones). You know this as you write on the Codex as well. But you can't expect everyone to follow your own rules on the Internet as a whole, so growing a thicker skin is essential, especially if a person wants to get the most out of it (even if just to not get riled up for things that in the end of the day aren't that important). Authoritarianism is just as bad when employed on the Net as it is in real life, and there are so few places left that are truly uncensored, going for the immediate ban is easy, but might not be the best thing to do. Out of curiosity, would you have banned me if this was your forum? You can PM the answer, I might stop posting - praise, constructive criticism or otherwise - based on it.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 02, 2017 09:59 PM |
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Its interesting how people still don't get it, after years of similar outcomes: modders have to learn a long way and they pass through this tedious process only because they have a vision to express. It is their vision, not yours or other lurkers vision. We have in HC several threads, Hota wishes, SW, HD mod and from all the thousands of suggestions made, not a single one was ever considered, at my knowledge.
Not because contempt, but because if a single external change is made into your whole vision, the whole structure have to be started again and calculate again conflicts and compatibilities, not speaking about codes, graphics to match. Hundreds of additional hours, just for one lurker.
You want this or that, you wait for the mod to be out then start adding your changes. Or you start yours. Naturally, you can give your opinion but this will mostly serve you to crystallize your vision, the chief modder will probably ignore it as he is already in the middle of something being done. Also once the mod is out, players reports about bugs is very valuable, but lets face it, if you want to have your ideas in, join the team then start the work, no offense.
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majaczek
Supreme Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
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posted February 03, 2017 08:22 PM |
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Well I have felt guilty 
Orzie you did a great work with your fellows, it's a fact. Every modder is allowed to push his ideas in his mod, you too. I understand it. I also did some things in my mod that not all likes. Happy modding! You mod also for yourself, and hours of free hard work earns right for making it your way.
Any suggestion for my mods? I seem to be not too vulnerable for deep criticism
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 04, 2017 10:06 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 10:10, 04 Feb 2017.
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Quote:
Any suggestion for my mods? I seem to be not too vulnerable for deep criticism
I'd recommend to pay more attention to the visual side. It's the most crucial disadvantage of any WoG-based mod (and that's why I don't play any of them), and this stops the mods from having much more players in the long run. It's too obvious that the creatures and objects don't come from Heroes 3.
Yet, it's much easier to find a skilled team with artists for a project with more or less popular idea. Heroes 3 castle building mania with the affiliated artists has moved to VCMI community mostly. So, I cannot suggest much, I just see the game in another way, far from WoG style adjustments with resurrecting first aid tents, etc.
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robizeratul
Known Hero
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posted February 07, 2017 02:24 PM |
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What happened with tge website ? Its down! Hope u guys have back ups just in case of emergency...
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 07, 2017 02:29 PM |
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Which one? Forums of Enroth are working fine.
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robizeratul
Known Hero
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posted February 07, 2017 03:44 PM |
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It's weird. Doesn't work on my phone and it doesn't work on my computer. Says dns not found error.
Maybe it's related to my location/country ? Never had this problem before.
It worked with a proxy though, that's how i'm seeing tge website now
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 07, 2017 03:49 PM |
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That may be a temporary issue with the hosting. I've met such problem before, and thought about political reasons to block Russian domains. Fortunately, everything eventually went back into normal state.
To access the forum from work I still require proxy though.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2017 04:51 PM |
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Although it is a common opinion that Heroes of Might and Magic III prevails over its prequel in every aspect, there is a selection of technical peculiarities which put this statement under question. We have already discussed the more complex font format and multi-colored H2 flags which were once a big trouble for us, not allowing the game to look truly H2-ish. Fortunately, we found a way to implement these features to Heroes 3, like many others which were absent.
Now we are happy to announce that we have just defeated another very important technical issue, which didn't allow our maps look like Heroes 2: the 4 shades of half-transparent shadows!
As many players know, original Heroes 3 has only 2 shades of black-and-grey shadow. That was enough for grimdark graphic style of Heroes 3, but was too little for the bright pixel graphics of Heroes 2 which require much softer shadows in order for objects to stack properly. Through all these years our shadows were too much aggressive and spoiled the mentioned "warm fairy-tale atmosphere" of the game which is mostly created by the special graphic style. The adaptation process of our map objects may take a while even after the release of v0.8 open beta, because global work awaits.
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robizeratul
Known Hero
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posted April 04, 2017 05:20 PM |
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Good job guys! More and more inovations, slowpy it will look either identical or better!
Are there any other techical difficulties ? What other challenges ahead ?
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This thread is pages long: 
