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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2013 10:37 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
So Nameless. Playing your cass
It's a good deck, but a T1? I would not even go as far as calling it relaibable. Its just so weak against sevral situations. Like week of Taxes Rush decks. As a Rush deck in it self it lacks a lot if the oponent breaks its first burst. Works but I would not call it a TOP deck.
I updated my Cassa "overview" (check my signature) and added a couple of replays. It's definitely a T1 deck, but it might not work as well in other meta game situations. It works now because it is great vs Ammar and Crag Hack and they are high in jackpot. According to replay manager my vs Ammar winrate is 74% (all from jackpot or swisses, 22 to 8), vs Crag Hack: 11-4 (not all have to be from tournaments). I have high winrates vs: all necro but Adar, inferno but Dhamiria, academy is not a problem in general. I'm weak vs mass removals: Adar, Dhamiria, Sandal, it's more or less even with Zardoc.
Pwnpoints is developing he's own version of Cassa rush which is very similar - he's thread might help: Pwnpoints Cassa on mmdoc.net
Almost every fast rush deck is weak after initial push was taken care of.
Sandal is more reliable, no question about it.
But let me just quote myself  :
Quote:
- switching to a new deck is hard
- it takes time to learn a new deck
- and i shouldn't think that other decks are easier and i should just switch to get better results.
I'm writing it b/c it wasn't obvious for me and maybe it's not obvious for others.
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I was watching MrH3 invitational yesterday and Dhamiria was by far the most popular hero. There were a couple of Sandals and a couple of Cassas (i payed attention to haven so i remember it better) and quite a few academy decks. Surprisingly i saw only one Ammar - food for thoughts for some people (Ammar is not op but still should be changed - it's just some decks don't have an answer to him other than blind arbiters).
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EvilNuff said:
I think that Uraxor's version of Cass fortune is better but its extremely reliable. I am currently at 89% win rate with it. You have to abuse the fortunes...which by the way is why singularity is an important missing piece. Multiple prisons in a game alone is enough to win.
I saw once Cassa with singularities but i'm not sold on it, reasons:
- it increases the chance to get a bad hand with only a few creatures and many expensive fortunes
- multiple prisons?? we're playing a rush deck, how many times you need a second prison to win, it just rarely happens. Prison is a conditional card, it still cost 5 to cast. It improves your situation only: (1) when you have a board advantage, (2)it's a late-game scenario and those 5 resources aren't that important. 2cd situation is not optimal in a rush deck that has no real advantage in the late-game
- Cassa, unlike Sandal, doesn't have an easy way to discard a card, and waiting for a realignment is very risky, too risky for me. Adding events weakens you vs spell intensive heroes.
Anyway, please add a link to the deck, i'll check it later.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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EvilNuff
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 14, 2013 11:19 PM |
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I'll post my version soon but if you check the comments on pwnpoints thread that you linked you will see he has changed his to be similar to what I am describing.
If you want to play it as rush then just play Sandalphon, its better. What makes this deck better than Sandal (IMO) is the unique fortunes. It *can* rush down but does not need to. It is relatively commong to have a turn with Imperial Devotion where you heal back to full and completely change the board to your advantage with all the resources provided. The Realignments are plenty good themselves even without Singularity just to refill your hand. One of the problems with Sandal is dropping cards down to 2-3 in hand while the more control oriented opponent has 5-6. In this situation you typically have a resource advantage from Treasurers and/or Devotion and if you use that to refill your hand you are not giving your opponent any actual benefit. When you combine that with recycling the uniques you get a huge advantage.
Sure sometimes you just win with rush but its not uncommon for me to just start rush racing with say Xorm. We both get below 10 and I heal to 20, prison him, bridge 2 of his creatures. Then next turn I beat him lower and Realignment up a new hand and re-cycle my uniques to the deck. At that point Altar is usually enough to clear room to finish him. If not I just Soothsayer up Prison again and continue. So yeah those uniques are really there as finishers when rush is not enough.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 14, 2013 11:31 PM |
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The Three problems I see with nameless Cass:
1: Almost no creature controle. No mass BW, no way how to stop the income of enemy units once you lost control. Spells are few and cost a lot and apart from BB and the altar you have no way how to save your self.
2: to many units depend on other cards to attack The Watchman once damaged are useless. WC can't do much on his own. Collectors need event to even do damage
3: No active counters. Apart from Cosmic and one cleansing light, you have no way how to break the game of your oponent.
There are some nice twists, and I like the idea of the deck, but its just to fragil IMHO
It has great Rush potential and good damage output. But only for some time. It can deploy several creatures in on turn, but facing Arbiters and Week of taxes this advantage fades away.
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EvilNuff
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 14, 2013 11:42 PM |
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Try it before you discount it...I felt the same way until I tried it.
Dave_Jame said:
The Three problems I see with nameless Cass:
1: Almost no creature controle. No mass BW, no way how to stop the income of enemy units once you lost control. Spells are few and cost a lot and apart from BB and the altar you have no way how to save your self.
2: to many units depend on other cards to attack The Watchman once damaged are useless. WC can't do much on his own. Collectors need event to even do damage
3: No active counters. Apart from Cosmic and one cleansing light, you have no way how to break the game of your oponent.
There are some nice twists, and I like the idea of the deck, but its just to fragil IMHO
It has great Rush potential and good damage output. But only for some time. It can deploy several creatures in on turn, but facing Arbiters and Week of taxes this advantage fades away.
1. Doesn't need it. It either out-rushes or out resources the opponent.
2. The other option are the expert marksman which have 3 toughness and die to IS. Watchmen even damaged can later be healed with Anael or pumped with Training. At worst they are another blocker.
3. Prison is completely sufficient to break the opponents game.
Trust me, try it for 10 games before you discount it.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 15, 2013 08:20 AM |
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Yeah, I came up against a Crag Hack and all he had was creatures up to level 3 with a couple sacfraficial altars...that's it, and it was highly affective. Didn't have any area spells, but still...
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RedEmperor30
Famous Hero
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posted October 15, 2013 09:40 AM |
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i have given namelesses deck a try and am still continuing with it.
I have grinded beyond grind with Sand, and yes it is a strong deck, however as with all decks it does have it's counters.
Nameless Cass build, DOES have the unique opportunity to rush the opp [any opp even crag] off its nuts!! I think my quickest win was prison up on lvl 5, win on 6.
i am still new to the deck though and am still learning its intricacies - however some initial thoughts.
1. You are relying primarily on a rush creature build - downfall no area removal and this can be problematic after lvl 7/8. I generally have board control from 4 - 8. If you do not have board control - it is very difficult to regain it.
2. Dharm and Adar still pose problems [inferno with the spell/ fortune removal and meaty guys, adar with earth spells, incorporeal and then later dark]
I am not sure what i would change right now as the build is 4 2 5 [5 situational] - I would consider adding angel of mercy to recycle creatures back into hand and 2 2 6 is not bad, can withstand most spells. I am also seeing how i can squeeze in the commander OR scattershot marksman - this to counter the lack of 4 drop haven creatures - thoughts Nameless?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 15, 2013 11:01 AM |
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So.. Let me expand the Decks that have an upper hand over your Cass Nemeless.
1: All Naga decks: They have a betteer board control, the key in your strategy
2: Magic oriented Academy: Once damaged you have a limited attack poptential which costs you resources and they can use this in the long run.
3: Any rush deck that gets a better hand (Again, once you lose board controle your done
4: Cursing decks... Like for real.. how do you plan to face a deck with 4 cursed bounds, 4 Nether souls and 4 weaknesses (the one leansing light?)
The problem is still you depend to much on one side of strategy. Anael is only one card, and you have no other forms of healing, but you need healing for your units to work. Lightning strikes are useles since you yourself make them to expensive and they can't kill larger creatures.
Purposal: Take out the strikes, but in Forced wind (beater board controle) or Lay of hands (Much needed healing)
With more then 50 games played, the deck has left me unimpressed. As red said, it can be insanely fast, and it uses the best out of Haven "economy side" But its not flexible enoght to be seen by me as an overkill deck.
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RedEmperor30
Famous Hero
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posted October 15, 2013 11:08 AM |
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ok... so ive also given Morgan a try
http://www.mmdoc.net/show_deck/13112/
and admittingly i find a good balance between sand and cass with this - will revert with changes and comment
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 15, 2013 11:15 AM |
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RedEmperor30 said:
I am not sure what i would change right now as the build is 4 2 5 [5 situational] - I would consider adding angel of mercy to recycle creatures back into hand and 2 2 6 is not bad, can withstand most spells. I am also seeing how i can squeeze in the commander OR scattershot marksman - this to counter the lack of 4 drop haven creatures - thoughts Nameless?
Angel of mercy
I used to play with them but finally i decided to drop the card. It's a great addition to strengthen your board position after a mass removal like forbidden flame. Mass removals are some kind of a counter to Cassa's rush. But sometimes you have only Angel of Mercy at hand and no creatures in the grave and paying 4 for 2/2/6 flying is not a good deal. Also the first creature to die is usually tithe collector. I wouldn't include more than 2 angels of mercy. There is no reason to take a match into the late-game when you have no real advantage there. Bottom line is: if mass removal is what you encounter most of the times - add 1-2 Angels of Mercy.
Scattershot Marksman
Never even considered it, never played with it. 4< resources creatures are weak vs dark magic, it doesn't have any instant effects, you rarely want to go 4 might without Anael. On the other hand it would help vs Lurkers but i wouldn't put in into the deck.
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Quote:
So.. Let me expand the Decks that have an upper hand over your Cass Nemeless.
1: All Naga decks: They have a betteer board control, the key in your strategy
2: Magic oriented Academy: Once damaged you have a limited attack poptential which costs you resources and they can use this in the long run.
3: Any rush deck that gets a better hand (Again, once you lose board controle your done
4: Cursing decks... Like for real.. how do you plan to face a deck with 4 cursed bounds, 4 Nether souls and 4 weaknesses (the one leansing light?)
It's really hard to shortly answer to all of this and i don't have time to elaborate.
1. Naga rushes are very strong and yes, it depends on opening hand. They have outmaneuver, i have mana acceleration and my fortunes i'm also a faster deck.
2. I don't agree with it. I didn't have problems with magic Academy (win-loses: Ammar: 22-8, Akane: 10-3, Asalah 3-4, Gazals 6-0, Hakeem 6-0, Myranda 5-3, i can't guarantee that all of the matchups were vs skilled opponents, but i rarely play ladder, rather swisses and jackpots).
3. This is obvious. Of course if my opponent that also plays rush deck have a better hand he/she has better chance to win. I don't think i get this argument.
4. I don't think i've ever played vs effective cursing deck
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Added a replay pack to my Cassa description
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 15, 2013 01:04 PM |
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Effective cursing deck of Adar is really effective! The new Cursed Bound spell is lovely to use, especially against strong units...
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted October 15, 2013 01:12 PM |
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LOL, Rockwall nerf! Does not prevent Focused Blast! 
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Friend-shaped
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 15, 2013 01:27 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 13:28, 15 Oct 2013.
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Why would it? Does melee guard prevent a kappa's focused blast?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 15, 2013 01:32 PM |
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Well guard lowers the damage from a melee attack. So it should not affect it. But Rock wall negates the attack IMHO, so why should FB/AB/SW work when there was no attack to begin with.
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redemperor30
Famous Hero
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posted October 15, 2013 01:37 PM |
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User your point, an eg: if you reduce vamp attack down to 0, when he attacks his special life drain does not work because his attack equals 0. The same no?
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted October 15, 2013 02:30 PM |
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@Dave: Exactly.
***
I remade my fat Yukiko deck, not particularly strong, but very fun to play!
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Friend-shaped
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2013 12:30 PM |
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I wanted too look deeper into my matchups so i checked how i fare vs elo>1,5k players.
Writing about particular matchups would take me too much time so maybe one day i'll get to it. Anyhow i checked my last 150 games with Cassandra (only 150 b/c i wanted to make sure that those games were after FW and from the time i stopped playing ladder) and chose 50 of those that were played vs elo >1,5k players. Since almost all of them are from tournaments (jakcpot, maybe a couple from swisses) the data (although the sample is small) shows my matchups vs top players with their well-designed decks. See the table below:
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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RedEmperor30
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2013 02:05 PM |
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Ok guys, i would like to ask you a favour if possible, please keep a list of heroes you face in a day, in a week?
All that i am now seeing is dharm, adar, sand - mostly!!
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2013 02:27 PM |
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Can't you simply use this:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/796011-Game-history-viewer
and check your own history
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted October 16, 2013 03:44 PM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 15:45, 16 Oct 2013.
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RedEmperor30 said:
Ok guys, i would like to ask you a favour if possible, please keep a list of heroes you face in a day, in a week?
All that i am now seeing is dharm, adar, sand - mostly!!
Pretty much, I was talking with Elvin about it, in like last 10 games, 3-4 were against Dhamiria.
And in Mhr3 invitational, most of the players were playing Dhamiria.
Tells you a lot about the hero.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2013 08:52 PM |
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RedEmperor30 said:
Ok guys, i would like to ask you a favour if possible, please keep a list of heroes you face in a day, in a week?
All that i am now seeing is dharm, adar, sand - mostly!!
Table of my todays matches from jackpot:
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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This thread is pages long: 
