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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted July 24, 2014 08:04 AM |
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Matt, the cutting down of the forest can be done automatically without workers...
...doing it by seeing them doing so visibly to the players eyes(trees disappear auto. to make way for the Castle Walls when they are built on that same turn).
@Stevie and Steyn: That idea came from me, several years past. Was deemed an Editor Item for use by a map maker.
So, that newest proposition of mine is to get an RMG capable of auto. create maps according to the number of factions desired or, auto. emplemented by that renewed RMG in map making engine. No more extremely small islands or, the implanted/founded villages could have a limit of growth to Citadel size only and, only the core levels of 1 to 3 + level 4 as the only elite unit creatures to be available on that Tiny and Small sized maps. On the Medium and Large generated maps, an option pops up that tells the RMG that these villages are to be allowed to grow to their maximum size possible.
Therefore, forcing the land masses surrounded by rather water or chains of mountains to be much larger in size(way more hexes to it than H5 and H6). Furthermore, in order to be able to play up to 8 Human and AI players/factions, you will be forced to play in XLarge, XXLarge and, XXXLarge maps. A new wide variety of check boxes for options can, now, be available in that new age RMG. The ability to have complete continents and, how many continents you want. Plus, Islands that 2 territories separated by a chain of mountains.
Moreover, eliminate that annoying trend for the RMG to put as many neutral villages on the map as there are players and at war starting factions. So, 8 players/factions, no more than 2 or 4 neutral villages onto such XXXLarge map. The option to disable neutral villages at options/choices window of the RMG is, now, mandatory. No more than 12 villages at start of the game, please. That way, more Might and Magic Heroes' features can be randomly put on such Humongous map.
The only pre-made map would be the world wide map of Ashan and, the only condition of winning it is: Absolute World Conquest and Overall Domination over all territories of it(Empty large territories included). MMH2 had the Enroth's world map. So, it is quite normal that the franchise must bring this back in order to really learn about Ashan from all of its 4 Cardinal points. Also, proving that Ashan is spheric world and, that you can not fall off at the edge of the world(world is flat as of a primitive concept of that medieval era based game).
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 24, 2014 09:14 AM |
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Hey, if you want all of that, go play Age of Empires or something, leave the joys of TBS to those who can appreciate them.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted July 24, 2014 06:11 PM |
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@MattII: You are still playing MMH3 and MMH4 are you?
Well...I am not. Went back to the good ole' MMHeroes 5: T.o.t.E v.3.1.
My proposal has absolutely no R.T.S' traces onto and into it. I am still elaborating a serious overhaul of the Might and Magic Heroes Series and, especially on the now, seriously getting old, Heroes 5. Mods have to be added to Heroes 5 v.3.1 in order to make the final finishes to it and, to become fully compatible to the way better Operating Systems such as Win. 7,8 and, 8.1(6.1,6.2 and,6.3).
No need to improve the graphical side of the game; other than to make it Direct X 10.x and 11.x compatible, only(3 years ago stuff, already).
It is a T.B.S. game, production and availability of the new batch of troops do remain weekly(7 days/turns). No every day availability and, no lack of development of the village, town, city and, Capitol that are property of that really bad title of Heroes 4(any versions of it).
Heroes 6 is an absolute failure to a very large fan base(including myself). So, it is, now, time to go back where Nival left off. By the year 2017, that excellent game of Heroes 5: T.o.t.E. will have reached its 10th anniversary. Microsoft will, hopefully be, still, in the PC O.S. development and, probably release version 7.0.xxxx of Windows' O.S. by the year 2016. Compatibility of all editions of Might and Magic Heroes' titles will become null(impossible to install and play with). Looking forward toward the future of Personal Computers means that the Tablet PC will predominate the whole wide world in every families' homes. Television sets becoming Hybrid PC types for the in-home's entertainment lounge room of everybody's Home. Getting the picture, here? High Tech. has no room for eternal status quo, anymore.
Even Win. Vista and 7 will no longer be supported by Microsoft's year 2017's deadline. That is a mere 2.5 years from now. A lot of PCs will cease to be able to cold or warm boot themselves into Win. 5.x.xxxx(XP's array of editions up to 2005).
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 24, 2014 09:13 PM |
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Quote:
My proposal has absolutely no R.T.S' traces onto and into it.
No? Building new towns is very RTSish, oh it comes up in Civilization I suppose, but those are exactly 1x1 space, while here they're 5x5, so it doesn't map well. In fact, modifying the terrain is an altogether RTS concept, so yes, your proposal has large elements of RTS in it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 24, 2014 09:32 PM |
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I don't see a problem. Modifying terrain in TBS is entirely possible. However not everyone likes that because it usually goes overboard and creates imbalance. So saying this I think it's safer and wiser to let it out of Heroes.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 24, 2014 11:07 PM |
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Modifying terrain, building towns anywhere...yeah, definitely that doesn't sound like HoM&M.
There are many, many more mechanics that can be improved/changed/tweaked while keeping the original HoM&M flavour. Skill system, Creatures (here you can add upgrades, alternative upgrades, second upgrades, subfactions...), heroes specializations, combat mechanics, city building tree...
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted July 26, 2014 11:22 AM |
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Well...I guess that your negative view on a true revival of series...
...really signals the very end of that series in a very quiet and silent end of existence in the offices of Ubisoft.
Might and Magic's whole division might have been disbanded and, already written off as a "no future in this game type". Gee-whiz, even the RPG version of Might and Magic 10(X) turned out to be totally bogus to a major number of fans around the globe.
Unless, you agree to my previous posts and, admit that humongous changes are needed to that aging TBS type of game; That would mean, reviving the franchise to a way higher and totally unseen popularity among strategy titles' fans everywhere.
Otherwise, R.I.P. to that type of TBS game.
Note: Even War of Magic became a total dud. Why? You might ask? Because of the lack of graphics quality in even its 2D overall look(looks worse that HOMM 1).
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 26, 2014 12:06 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:26, 26 Jul 2014.
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Who cares if the series carries on if it's a zombie? That's what your ideas signify, an end to the series as it was in its heyday.
Such major changes aren't needed either. What's killing the series far more than the unwillingness of the community to accept change is the unwillingness of Ubisoft to release a decent game, because no matter what the gameplay is like, if the game is an unplayable bugfest it's going to crash.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 26, 2014 12:29 PM |
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How being opposite against huge changes into HoM&M game mechanics is a 'true revival of series'? lol
As Matt perfectly pointed out, the first and most important thing Ubi has to do is release a proper game, not a bugfest. Then they could get back all those fans who got frustated by H5 & H6.
As for Might & Magic X, it was a low-budget, so it never was meant to be a huge hit. And from what I've read over rpg websites, the game was quite good, considering Ubisoft standards. And it was loyal to many features of older M&M titles, and that's what a true revival (like this one) must have. The biggest complain I could see was dropping game support after 5 months of it's release...
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2014 12:56 PM |
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I defintely think HoMM could become a lot more successful if it incorporated more elements from games like Age of Wonders and Civilization.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2014 01:09 PM |
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Which is basically what Luc is arguing for, so I don't get the resistance.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted July 26, 2014 03:23 PM |
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To both Xerox and Stevie: Fully agree and, that was my point from the very beginning.
Matt II and Storm-Giant have a serious problem with way better graphics while having the best modding like open source database ever as in H5. H6 had no RMG and, is found almost impossible to modify its database + has, basically, the same graphics quality as H5. Both games were done in the 21st century and, that seems to be a problem(not for Win. XP either but, for Win. 6.x instead).
Many of Might and Magic Heroes games have gone to War of Magic: Enchantment Princess(DLC Add-on), Civilization 5: Brave New World and, finally, Age of Wonders III. Their bugfest is as far away as the people whom gets to install these titles on PCs that range from ancient + barely functional to very recent and fast. A good configuration is always the key to a well functioning PC. Maintenance has to be done every month, otherwise, watch out for glitches of all kinds(BSOD before launching any games or other apps of all kinds).
Another very important point here: You do not have Windows 6.1, 6.2 or, 6.3 then do not complain to me or to the publisher(s) of the 2nd decade of this 21st century(2010+). PS. Having the original Vista(6.0) with its service packs up to the 2nd one(SP2) is, still, a very good in standing of a PC. Win. 6.1 was made for all the elderly people whom could not afford a new PC and, was released to accomodate them as for their old apps needed the XP platform for working properly(compatibility mode integrated into it).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2014 07:53 PM |
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I also disagree with that: Elemental, Civ amd AoW are very different games from HoMM ( or M&M:H).
As the title says HoMM is centered around and focussed on HEROES. Everything else is secondary to them. In other words, HoMM isn't a game of CITY management first and foremost, but of HERO management and development.
Which means, that "innovations", changes, improvements and so on have to start with the heroes
Secondly. Homm is a FAST game. SECOND World War, nort first, that is, blitzkrieg, and not trench war. Fortifying the landscape, choke points, bridges and so on, does one thing: it lengthens the game. That's bad insofar, as you don't want to sit around - if the map is explored, it should end. You shouldn't spend turns with building and destroying bridges, dig tunnels - or irrigate the fields.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 26, 2014 09:08 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:21, 26 Jul 2014.
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Quote:
Matt II and Storm-Giant have a serious problem with way better graphics while having the best modding like open source database ever as in H5. H6 had no RMG and, is found almost impossible to modify its database + has, basically, the same graphics quality as H5. Both games were done in the 21st century and, that seems to be a problem(not for Win. XP either but, for Win. 6.x instead).
Nice attempt to twist our opinions through your own biases. Neither of us has ever argued against modability or graphics improvements, and in fact neither of us is even arguing against innovation simply against the inclusion of RTS elements (such as the ability to modify terrain) into the series.
Quote:
Many of Might and Magic Heroes games have gone to War of Magic: Enchantment Princess(DLC Add-on), Civilization 5: Brave New World and, finally, Age of Wonders III. Their bugfest is as far away as the people whom gets to install these titles on PCs that range from ancient + barely functional to very recent and fast. A good configuration is always the key to a well functioning PC. Maintenance has to be done every month, otherwise, watch out for glitches of all kinds(BSOD before launching any games or other apps of all kinds).
So you're saying that bugfest games are unavoidable? Sorry, but this is utter BS, Blizzard made Starcraft 2 and that wasn't a bugfest. Bugfest games only occur when companies don't give a f***, and that describes Ubisoft to a T.
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Another very important point here: You do not have Windows 6.1, 6.2 or, 6.3 then do not complain to me or to the publisher(s) of the 2nd decade of this 21st century(2010+). PS. Having the original Vista(6.0) with its service packs up to the 2nd one(SP2) is, still, a very good in standing of a PC.
I don't know what world you're living on, but a lot of people have criticised Vista heavily, while praising 7 (which I have actually).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2014 09:50 PM |
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It might be just me but with each post he makes, JJ manages to make me dislike him even more. Just gonna dissect his reply here to maybe let you figure out why:
Quote:
I also disagree with that: Elemental, Civ amd AoW are very different games from HoMM ( or M&M:H).
Sure they are. But so are each and every other game in existence. Relevance? 0!
Quote:
As the title says HoMM is centered around and focussed on HEROES. Everything else is secondary to them. In other words, HoMM isn't a game of CITY management first and foremost, but of HERO management and development.
By this logic you could even say that MMX Legacy, is more "Heroes" than Heroes is, because the focus there is exclusively on your 4 man party. Everything is secondary my ass. Might, magic, towns, creatures, battleground are all as "Heroes" as heroes are. There is no first and foremost at all, they are all very important parts of the game without which Heroes wouldn't be Heroes.
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Which means, that "innovations", changes, improvements and so on have to start with the heroes
... and continue with the others, eventually. Which brought us to our current conversation. Hey, you made it! But just so we understood well, what catastrophe would lie ahead of us if we decided to innovate towns first and heroes later? Or magic? Or creatures?
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Secondly. Homm is a FAST game.
It's not. Games can be fast or long, depending on map size, number of opponents, playstyles, objectives and other things. But Heroes is in no way exclusively a fast game. I myself enjoy very long maps most.
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SECOND World War, nort first, that is, blitzkrieg, and not trench war. Fortifying the landscape, choke points, bridges and so on, does one thing: it lengthens the game. That's bad insofar, as you don't want to sit around - if the map is explored, it should end. You shouldn't spend turns with building and destroying bridges, dig tunnels - or irrigate the fields.
Are we to understand that bridges and border gates are undesirable? Because you might encounter an enemy that blocks your path? Rofl. We shouldn't have guards at anything then for the same reason that they delay progression. And who the hell mentioned digging tunnels and irrigating fields?
These are not arguments, just smokescreen.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2014 10:35 PM |
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Stevie said:
It might be just me but with each post he makes, JJ manages to make me dislike him even more.
I feel honored.
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Just gonna dissect his reply here to maybe let you figure out why:
I'm actually surprised you know that word. Dissect, wow.
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I also disagree with that: Elemental, Civ amd AoW are very different games from HoMM ( or M&M:H).
Sure they are. But so are each and every other game in existence. Relevance? 0!
Pointing to them is as irrelevant as pointing to ... Tetris.
Quote:
Quote:
As the title says HoMM is centered around and focussed on HEROES. Everything else is secondary to them. In other words, HoMM isn't a game of CITY management first and foremost, but of HERO management and development.
By this logic you could even say that MMX Legacy, is more "Heroes" than Heroes is, because the focus there is exclusively on your 4 man party.
It is.
Quote:
Everything is secondary my ass. Might, magic, towns, creatures, battleground are all as "Heroes" as heroes are. There is no first and foremost at all, they are all very important parts of the game without which Heroes wouldn't be Heroes.
That's just you claiming it. But incidentally it's not true in the sense you mean it. It's all important only in connection and relation to the heroes.
Quote:
Quote:
Which means, that "innovations", changes, improvements and so on have to start with the heroes
... and continue with the others, eventually. Which brought us to our current conversation. Hey, you made it! But just so we understood well, what catastrophe would lie ahead of us if we decided to innovate towns first and heroes later? Or magic? Or creatures?
It's just IRRELEVANT, compared to that. Don't you see how HoMM 4 went from "Heroes on the BF" to every change based on that? NWC had the right priorities, that's why everyone is in awe about their games.
It doesn't gain anything to change a little here or there. You need to set the HERO parameters and then set the rest accordingly.
Quote:
Quote:
Secondly. Homm is a FAST game.
It's not. Games can be fast or long, depending on map size, number of opponents, playstyles, objectives and other things. But Heroes is in no way exclusively a fast game. I myself enjoy very long maps most.
We are not talking MAP SIZE here. And you should know thet - look below.
Quote:
Quote:
SECOND World War, nort first, that is, blitzkrieg, and not trench war. Fortifying the landscape, choke points, bridges and so on, does one thing: it lengthens the game. That's bad insofar, as you don't want to sit around - if the map is explored, it should end. You shouldn't spend turns with building and destroying bridges, dig tunnels - or irrigate the fields.
Are we to understand that bridges and border gates are undesirable? Because you might encounter an enemy that blocks your path? Rofl. We shouldn't have guards at anything then for the same reason that they delay progression. And who the hell mentioned digging tunnels and irrigating fields?
We are to understand that everything a map starts with is fine, including a border guiard - and you should know THAT as well. Changing the map WHILE PLAYING , and defensively, that's the point here.
Quote:
These are not arguments, just smokescreen.
Whatever.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 26, 2014 11:32 PM |
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Jeeez Stevie, of course heroes are the most crucial part of HoM&M. After all, you don't see creatures going on all alone, do you?
Heroes are the ones who recruit creatures, heroes are the ones who raise creature stats and commands them in battle, heroes explore the adventure map and gather resources, heroes take and wear artifacts...
Makes me wonder if you have played HoM&M long enough
JollyJoker said:
We are to understand that everything a map starts with is fine, including a border guiard - and you should know THAT as well. Changing the map WHILE PLAYING , and defensively, that's the point here.
^Well said.
Mapmakers have the duty to make interesting maps. If the players can alter the map while playing, it's impossible for the mapmaker to make good maps since he no longer has full control of it.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2014 11:40 PM |
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lol did anyone even suggest removing heroes from heroes of might and magic? -.-
Look at the market. People buy Age of Wonders and especially Civilization. People did not buy H6 and I think it's unlikely that a H7 would sell better if it went by the same formula. To return to its place in in the sun, HoMM must adapt the to the TBS market. That means incorporating elements from the games that dominate that market.
Something I would like to see in H7 would be a focus on expanding your kingdom across the map. You could expand upon the area of control system with castles and forts introduced in H6. Perhaps allow us to build our own forts, like in Age of Wonders. There should be diplomacy and other ways to win the game than just by conquest.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 10:37 AM |
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No, Xerox, you are wrong.
A well-known, successful series can't be continued by losing its identity or by copying stuff other games do. You keep successful, by giving the game an individual character you cannot find in other games.
When you look at AoW III, for example, then the underlying mechanics of "empire building" are pretty much uninteresting. You don't play the game because of that.
No, they had the brilliant idea to combine their races - which had been the diversity vehiclee for the game in the previous games - with different Leader types. Additionally, the same leader types can have different magic affinities, which makes for a ton of really divers playing options.
And HoMM 6's problem isn't that the game was bad, although there have been some unlucky design decision. The problem with HoMM 6 is, there is a ton of bugs, and the underlying game mechanics are so complex, that a lot of the bugs are not obvious: who knows whether a unit witzh a ton of effects on it hitting another with a ton of effects on it will produce the right damage amount?
Then HoMM 6 hasn't been "complete" - not by a mile. Only 5 starting factions, 1 in an addon - that's appalling.
Bottom line is, HoMM 6 didn't fail, because there was something fresh missing, it failed, because it didn't produce the HoMM feeling - or too seldom.
You see, if you look at what NWC did, then it's fairly easy to see, how this game should be designed: First and foremost you need a vision or concept of how the HEROES should work, not because they are in the title, because they are the glue that ties all the game elements together. The RPG element of developing heroes combined with the fact that this development does NOT (except in IV) improve the fighting performance, as it is in classic RPG, but everything else instead. THAT is the heart of the game, and you have to start there, because depending on that, a lot of other puzzle pieces will fall into place with a bit of logic. It will leave enough decisions to make that are unconnected, but that will bne the unimportant ones.
So. In heroes you just don't want "population working", towns growing and so on. Why not? Because it doesn't give anything. INSTEAD you may want to think about governor heroes - we had something like that in HoMM IV already. The Might Order hero started with the Nobility skill, you could assign him to any one of your towns and his skill would influnce creature growth there. Under that skill he could also learn earning money and resources and a diplomacy skill.
Now, we had kingdom skills in HoMM 6 as well - but in HoMM 6, hired Heroes being 5 levels lower than your best, after some time in the game you could just hire a secondary and give him all the desired skills, which is crap, because it's no fun. It's counter-productive, if , with a lot of maneuvering you develop a second hero to level 5 to allow him the pick of another kingdom skill, and 2 turns later ylour main reaches 10 and you can just hire a level 5 guy.
Anyway, the idea of kingdom skills collides a bit with the game, since to advance your skills you have to fight and to be able to do that effectively you need to advance fighting skills, while development of secondary heroes is contraproductive either, since the expertience they gain is experience they take away for your main.
So this is a problem you will have to solve. A problem that didn't exist in HoMM IV, mind you. In HoMM IV an army might consist of up to 7 heroes, heroes would share gained XP in shares related to their level to each other - and developing more heroes instead of just one was rewarded by giving you more levels all in all.
So you mkight ask the question - What about allowing more than one hero per army? Can we do that? Is that possible? Would we gain something by that? How should this be limited? Should there be an option to take heroes out of a battle? Could a hero action be an attack of an opposing hero - heroes still not being on the battlefield?
That's interesting questions - and obviously, if you'd decide, YES, we want more than one hero for an army, you'd have to start THERE and develop the game from there, since it might have consequences for the game as a whole - as it was, when they decided to bring heroes onto the BF in HoMM IV.
Now, I don't think, Ubisoft would do something like that, and my intention here is only to show, that if you want to improve the game where you have to set the lever.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 27, 2014 11:23 AM |
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This is utter bullcrap. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. The franchise lost most of it's "Heroes" feel exactly with those H4 and H6 that you so ardently praise to the point that it looks like ass kissing. Multiple heroes in a party system is one of the greatest errors to have happened and in NO FREAKIN WAY should it happen again. In this regard, I commend Ubisoft for returning to the classical style with Heroes 5, and for not considering your ridiculous ideas while we're at it.
The direction in which Heroes should develop is indeed of kingdom building. And I don't mean that in the way of Civ with workers "irrigating fields" but with MICROMANAGEMENT and CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT. And worthwhile at that. Because frankly, building your 35~ buildings then let your town rot is the epitome of boredom. I don't want a game where moving the hero on the map becomes the sole thing that I do. If you do, then I suggest playing MMX Legacy RPG and leave our TBS alone.
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