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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted July 28, 2014 05:45 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
It's opposed to the idea of letting heroes select their skills - every skill taken is also skills NOT taken. If you create a special secondary hero career, it's also some kind of no-brainer, unless you offer a whole selection of careers where every career picked is also some careers not picked, which will amount to a sub-game plus the question, whether it wouldn't suffice to have some extra alternative buildings.
All this is no solution for the perceived problems.
For me, a secondary hero is a must. Why? I need a hero to protect my town and to improve my economy (H3: estate skill or +350 gold hero speciality). A level 1 hero will be crushed by a 15-30 level hero. A level 10 hero has a better chance to defend a town than a level 1 hero.
Storm-Giant said:
Not to mention once you clear your area, you would probably use your main hero to get even more experience with those buildings instead of the secondary...
I already said that the amount of experience you gain is limited. In addition, it would be a small amount. But if if you keep a hero (lvl15 or higher) in town for a small amount of experience, it shows that you do not know to play the game efficiently. In addition there could be a level cap to those building. For example, lets take my proposal of Training Camp. Imagine a hero is receiving a 125 exp. points per day because of the Training Camp. And there is a cap to level 8 or 10 at most. And let's use requirement for levels from H3. (http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes3/leveladv.shtml)
1) If there is a level cap a high level hero cannot benefit from it, thus he/she must use the strongest hero to conquer the other player(s).
2) But imagine if there were no caps. In order to get to level 10 with just this building you would need to do nothing with this hero several months.
Level 10 requirement = 13,200.
13,200 / 125 = 105.6 days -> 3.5 months
Level 15 requirement = 31,604.
31,604 / 125 = 252.832 days -> 8 months
For levels 20, 25 and 30. calculate on your own. It simply is not a good strategy to wait in town with the strongest hero, since the experience is insignificant for the main hero, BUT it is significant for a secondary(governor hero).
My previous post was just a proposal, not a clearly defined and polished mechanic. It can be changed, modified and improved. It's still just a rough version.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 06:21 PM |
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If that's the purpose, then H6 worked good enough.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 06:33 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:41, 28 Jul 2014.
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There's a HUGE difference between training and working with your governor from lvl 1 than insta lvl 25 like in H6. Not to mention that the economical efficiency is already lost when you already have a lvl 30 main hero, meaning a good chunk of the game has already been played. And, what a governor means to a kingdom is miles away from what a secondary hero in H6 could ever accomplish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 06:45 PM |
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Same no-brainer, actually.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 07:40 PM |
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So a hero that specializes in governing, managing economy and production, visiting region sites to accomplish tasks and earning passive xp (beside active) is the same "no-brainer" as a secondary hero from Heroes 6... And it's even undesirable to have governors...
Another great "analysis". You're being so subjective now it makes me puke. You're like a kid throwing a tantrum. Just look at your posts! Nothing to say, just outright dismissing of any other idea that isn't yours. To say that having having hero roles rather than just one superhero amassing army and walking it on the map just shows how BIASED you are against diversity. Well, you're on a losing track. I tried to show that to you with arguments but you just keep being unreasonable.
"No-brainer", "boring" - Mighty JJ hath spoken, and thus it hast been. And the HC fangirls rejoiced.
You make me sick.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 07:50 PM |
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That's something I can live with, I suppose.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted July 28, 2014 09:04 PM |
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Actually, if any player does not learn to use all 8 Heroes allowed to the game...
...of MMH5, that player will have a serious problem at winning its maps. Especially the Normal size to Impossible size. The larger the map the more experienced amount of Heroes you will need to win the whole map.
MMHeroes is only a fast game once you become a very good player(happens to be my case, lately, at H5 only). H6 is too RPG...ended up abandoned then, ditched. Moreover, here in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, the gaming market just plain given up on that strategy gaming thingy except Civilization 5 and, now, Age of Wonders III. Do not try to find a hard copy of the vanilla version of MMHeroes 6, none exists anywhere.
MMH4 failed graphically, gameplay-wise and, onto instant replayability via an integrated RMG. MMH6 and its expansion did the exact same mistake + incorporating enormous RPG elements to the Heroes. The devs for H6, tried in vain at figuring out what I was proposing for it all the way back since 2008. Did not work out the way I envisioned the whole thing.
In HoMM3 and MMH5 all versions and its mods always has this magical synergy that is fun to play while having the pride inducing element of playing a close to Earth like mythical environment of chivalrous proportions. Of course, exploration is always very interesting in the very first two weeks of the game's immediate territory where your village is situated on that specific map but, comes the time when the hard decisions comes as inevitable as it has to come: to prepare for invasion of the other territories.
Here are the main questions a good strategist of a player of such game should always ask itself:
Is attacking the best way to defend myself against all other possible enemies while not preparing myself for a possibility of an attempt by the enemy to invade my own territory? Or, wait until one, two or even three of them attempt to invade and hope to be able to repel them, then invade them simultaneously as fast as you can run their, now, undefendable villages or towns?
My answer to most of my maps played was: Prepare for being invaded while preparing to invade the others also. Attack from one gate by the end of week 3 so that there is a good garrison in the capital city. And, then by the end of Week 4, attack from the other gate if the first invasion attempt was a successful enough of a victory to continue invading the other territories. Most of the time the AI always makes the mistake of using the first option according to my questions above, fighting and eliminating themselves to the point of both not having a decent army to defend themselves and, no military establishment such as a castle to quickly replenish their soldiers' ranks in good numbers. The AI, as being so careless and so darn aggressive on week one of the first month that if it attacks you and, you happen to be able to repulse it quite easily, you can storm its territory in confidence of conquering its village.
I just gave, to all of you, an insight on how to win comfortably at both H3 and H5. Usually, I keep this to myself but, since you will never catch me play an online multiplayer game, well, here you go. Enjoy, winning every one of your games, from now on.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted July 28, 2014 10:04 PM |
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JollyJoker, I agree with Stevie that there is a difference between starting with a level 1 hero and staring with a hero who is level 30. Yes, the outcome is eventually the same whether it is done by exploring and conquering, passively acquiring experience or starting with already strong hero (or doing it in some other way).
However, I believe that emotional and personal response/attachment, or call it whatever you like, is not the same. Actively and passively acquiring experience is allowing you to guide and shape your hero and to follow the hero's development as he or she manages to pass all obstacles. Buying a high level hero results in void, since there is no emotional or personal connection with hero. Maybe I am the only one who is attached to them in this respect, I don't know, but for me it is important.
If it is all no-brainer, than why don't we start with 8 heroes with 30+ level? If it is the same how the level is acquired than it wouldn't make any difference if you waste several hours to level up the hero(es) or having them all leveled up at the beginning of a map. But then, the entire development of Heroes, which you stated that everything should revolve around (since this is the HEROES game) is basically destroyed. With already strong heroes, there is no need for the monsters on the map, the adventure map objects that give you experience, level, skill, spell, attack, defence, etc. Ultimately, the Heroes game is no longer about heroes, my friend.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 10:30 PM |
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Well, you have to keep in mind what the game is all about.
Ultimately it's a race to develop a maximum of power, but that power is punctual - it's concentrated in one or more heroes. You have to explore the map to secure goods which are guarded by guards you have to beat.
Usually you gain by beating the guards and obtaining XP and by obtaining the stuff they guard as well.
To do that effectively you have to synchronize a couple of things, like obtaining and using resources, developing hero skills, determining the paths of exploration and conquest and so on.
Generally spoken, there is no other reasonable way to develop than via battling (or decision-making). With the learning curves of heroes being steep, it's usually possible to give secondary heroes the odd level-up, so you may indeed succeed in having a basic governor hero, but after that it makes no sense to more or less "gift" them with additional XP/levels by doing silly things.
Instead, the thrill comes or would come from sacrificing a level or 2 of your main (can you make up for it?) or sacrificing main hero slots for kingdom skills (can you gain an advantage out of that).
A completely separate "career option" doesn't gain, because it's not really a decision you make - you just use an option you and everyone else has, without losing or sacrificing something.
The most, well, STRAIGHT option to do something here is to add more powerful kingdom skills that really need levels as well to develop.
In the end it may lead to a weaker hero with a bigger army, which is interesting.
Having separate secondary hero careers without any sacrifice will just lead to everyone having the same bigger army and main hero.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 28, 2014 10:50 PM |
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Would heroes being capable of swapping skills be of any use? So, ie, a level 10 hero with Expert Offense can train a Level 3 hero with no Offence skill whatsoever up to say Advanced Offence.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 03:42 AM |
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I prefer the H6 hero lvl up to H5. To me, a strategy game needs to be won with the best strategy ; leaving how your hero lvls up to chance contradicts that. Random luck, random morale, random artifacts, random creatures on the map, yes, yes... random lvl up skill choice? No way! Perhaps some things could be brought back like in H5, like the spells learned via buildings and more importantly, the varied options in upgrading creatures. But a tech tree is way better than random dice roll determining your choices, no matter how I look at it.
I hope H7 is like H6 but with 2 different creature upgrades, more skills, more spells, and a slightly longer cooldown on every skill and spell so people can't put 27 passives and 3 skills. And less bugs. With a slider to limit the amount of heroes from 1 to 10.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 08:16 AM |
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MattII said:
Would heroes being capable of swapping skills be of any use? So, ie, a level 10 hero with Expert Offense can train a Level 3 hero with no Offence skill whatsoever up to say Advanced Offence.
Skill-based Mentoring, so-to-speak, would certainly be better than XP-based Mentoring, at least from a plausibility point of view. You wouldn't get a governor from it, but you could hire a hero starting with the right prerequisites and hand him the combat und probably logistic skills of your main, making them somewhat more usable as a defender.
The question would be whether to transfer part of the primary stats as well or not.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 09:53 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:12, 29 Jul 2014.
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kayna said:
I prefer the H6 hero lvl up to H5. To me, a strategy game needs to be won with the best strategy ; leaving how your hero lvls up to chance contradicts that.
However, the H6 system leads to most of the skills going unused because they're useless or almost so. So while the H6 system solves one of the big problems with the H5 system, it exacerbates the other one dramatically.
Quote:
The question would be whether to transfer part of the primary stats as well or not.
I'd say not, leave that to actually levelling up.
The other thing is, skill swapping can work both ways, so say your main Hero is (taking an example at random from H3) Mephala and you get the chance to Hire Kyrre, you can pre-boost him with Armourer and Leadership, while gaining Archery and Logistics, neither of which Mephala might actually have.
Also, I'd like to see more map locations that give skills, for example I have in mind one called perhaps Journeyman's Rest, from which you can learn 2 random skills (of random proficiencies too) at a cost of 1000/2000/3000, and the skills change every week. Or there's the Tower of Magi, where you can pay to learn either one of two secondary, skills, one of three level 4/5 spells, or get a magical primary skill boosted by 2 points.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 10:15 AM |
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Which is why Expert should be able to teach Basic only.
Generally, though, I like the HoMM 4 way better of having a lot of map locations that may boost one skill or another, either for free or for a price. To answer the "random pick or informed choice" debate with skill picks, that would be my preferred method as well, some kind of random level-up, with a lot of map locations where to learn stuff.
You might see the HoMM 5 system of skills and associated abilities as a variation of that system, that would offer 9 skills with 3 subskills each, everything having an excessive 5 levels.
Also the idea that the first two skills that are picked twice determine some kind of class that gets an additional and unique ability was a pretty brilliant one, because it delivers what I think should be done for hero special: when you hire a hero, the special shouldn't be known beforehand - it should develop (surprises are a good thing), but it shouldn't develop randomly, but in accordance with the hero type you chose.
Exactly what that system delivered, because a hero would start with one Skill plus one subskill, allowing for one of 8 possible classes to develop them to.
Imagine HoMM 5 with that system: Heroes would start with a Basic skill and an ability of that skill. There are 12 skills plus the Racial, so there are 78 different skill combos possible, defining a class, and with class a special...
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 29, 2014 01:29 PM |
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kayna said:
I prefer the H6 hero lvl up to H5. To me, a strategy game needs to be won with the best strategy ; leaving how your hero lvls up to chance contradicts that. Random luck, random morale, random artifacts, random creatures on the map, yes, yes... random lvl up skill choice? No way!
There's no need to go from one extreme to the other - both are bad. I don't understand why you condemn H5 way when H6 is the epitome of boredom (players will always pick the same skills).
IMO the big problem of H5 wasn't randomness, but the way it was implemented and how much random it was. And it wasn't limited to skills choice, artifacts also suffered from this (although artifacts, spells and such also suffered from low variation).
What I dream of is a system based on H5 skillwheel, where when a level up happens, the hero is offered 2 random secondary skills (but with more random values, so it's not impossible to get low probability skills) OR a perk skill of the choice of the player. This way there would be some randomness granted (not in a big way, but still enough to grant replayability) but at the same time be able to shape your hero skills in some way.
Still, what's really important is to make all skills (or in my proposal, perks) interesting, so if the player wants to pick a certain perk, he knows he isn't getting other(s) perk(s) that could boost him in other ways. I believe this is something JJ has mentioned before and I fully agree on him.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 08:15 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
I don't understand why you condemn H5 way when H6 is the epitome of boredom (players will always pick the same skills).
Because H6 lack skills and spells, not because you have more control on your hero lvl up.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 09:35 PM |
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Actually, I like a good random skill system - for good reason.
Now, first of all a system based on probablities is far from random - instead it's a feast for someone who likes probability mathematics, which I do.
However, if you think in stories, it's not the Paragons who write the noteworthy stories, the Knights by the book with Leadership and Light or Life Magicand all this crap - nope, it's the pariahs - the Fire Witches, the outlaws, the DARK Knights, the Rangers gone Rogue and so on. Happy people have no stories, as the song goes.
And probability based skill systems can cater for that. Most of the time you will build the paragon heroes, the way you'll expect them. But once in a while, for example, your Necro mage guild comes with Haste and Divine Retribution or how the spell is called - and your hero is offered Light Magic. And that's the moment when the game gets magical, because you can create a SPECIAL hero.
Not üpossible when yoiu have fixed tables and free pick.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 29, 2014 09:52 PM |
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I agree there needs to be some randomnes in skill offering, otherwise game loses a major part of its replayability. H6 showed this to be true.
Was H5 perfect? Probably not. I agree with Storm Giant, we need to be offered random skills, but to be able to choose whatever perks we want within the skill. When playing H5, 99% of the times the frustration didn't come from getting the wrong skills, but from getting the right skills and then being offered the wrong perks, cutting you off from the synergy paths you aimed for. But random skill offering was good because: a) It allowed you to "battle the system" by trying to optimize your chances for a certain skill to appear (which was an art in itself), and b) It allowed for those thrilling moments that JJ mentions, like when your Demon Lord got Light Magic and thrashed everyone with mass haste, or when your Wizard got Logistics and had lightning-fast golems running all-over the map.
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What will happen now?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 29, 2014 10:58 PM |
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alcibiades said:
b) It allowed for those thrilling moments that JJ mentions, like when your Demon Lord got Light Magic and thrashed everyone with mass haste, or when your Wizard got Logistics and had lightning-fast golems running all-over the map.
I remember one duel vs Lepastur, I got Haven and he got Inferno, I was expecting a Dark based hero and I prepare for it, and it was mind-blowing to see his infernal troops get mass light spell after mass light spell. I used my own light magic spells, but his troops were very sturdy and I got overwhelmed
Those moments were remarkable 
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