|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted June 25, 2014 09:43 AM |
|
|
Right.
That plays into Hero Skills. It feels wrong to "waste" Hero skills with learning "abilities"; instead it feels right to learn SKILLS that allow you to acquire and strengthen or deepen "abilities" in buildings you have to build (of course that means "spells" and Mage Guilds, but it could also be War Cries and War Academies, Runes and Runestone Circles or even "Universities" where you might learn non-combat abilities, like changing terrain, building/destroying bridges, increasing resource production and/or creature output, constructing and building War Machines or even sculpting artifacts).
And you do not have to give every town/race everything (at all or in the same quality/quantity).
I mean, why would the rest of the game work differently than skills? "Meaningful choice" is the keyword here. Of course, having ALL would be best - but it would also be boring, so you have to limit yourself. HOW to limit yourself, that's how to play the game.
Consider AoW, where you are even more limited, because you cannot build AND hire, but only build OR hire (hiring is the same as building, essentially, same as in Civ). The more you build, the more you increase your options, but the main thing is to find the right mix.
The problem with the HoMM 3/5(/6) way is - the way is already paved. You CAN only build so many different units, incidentally the same number you can give your hero. If you consider HoMM 3 Dungeon, for example, with it's strict building prerequisites forcing you to build one creature tier after the next, then the only thing left to player's discretion is, how you manage upgrading, and with that you are on safe ground: once you have all 7 creatures build, you can't lose anything, but only gain - it's basically a kind of sophisticated no-brainer.
Note, that the situation in HoMM 2 (as an example for this) is vastly different. If you leave the Knight out (the "textbook" town), and look for example at Sorceress, Dwarves make a fine garrison. Also, Dwarves are not needed as a prerequisite - so your 5 army units would seem to be Sprites, Elves, Druids, Unicorns and Phoenixes; except that Dwarves also offer serious Hit Points and a partial magic immunity, but on the other hand you need the Tavern to build them (you can hire heroes without a Tavern in HoMM 2) and you must upgrade them, so they are something of a separate little building chain.
Which means - it's not a no-brainer. It depends.
The other towns present different pictures. Consider the Wizard with the insanely expensive to build and to buy Titans - the 3 Titans alone cost 15000 Gold, and a town will produce only 8750 a week, so to even consider building them you need a lot more gold producing posessions on the map. This is another no-brainer thing HoMM 3 added: your main town is self-sufficient (you can basically hire a full production with the Capitol income), which not only paves the way, but also makes MP games needlessly tiresome, because you can turtle in your main town (which would be different if you needed outside income sources).
|
|
Steyn
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 09:48 AM |
|
|
I think that without the heroes 6 town conversion I was already sort of doing this. In one of my most recent heroes 4 games I had two main armies: an offensive army with two heroes, phoenixes, mantices, angels, black dragons and sprites; and a defensive army with griffins, unicorns, fairy dragons and sprites. While this puts an enormous strain on your economy, if you don't hire the lower tier troops it is perfectly doable. I think especially heroes 4 nature is a good example of the system JJ proposes, as you can hire extra creatures via the creature portal. And if the map is rich enough for you to hire many high tier units, then it most likely is also for your opponent(s).
When you limit the tiers that you can bring in your army, you basically give someone a choice that you immediately take away again  I think they already implemented this system in heroes online and I really didn't like it.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 09:55 AM |
|
|
Stevie said:
AND. I still think that leaving the game solely at the mercy of economy is something risky to say the least.
However, you fail to name a reason for thinking that.
Stevie said:
AND you couldn't be more wrong about replacing. Certainly you wouldn't replace lower tier creatures exactly after having 3 dragons to recruit. But you'd really prefer them if they were 10 instead of any Core creature even if it amassed since the beginning of the game.
But you have to PAY for them as well. You MUST see this economically, everything else makes no sense: you can only create "surplus" army power (that is, army power that REPLACES already existing army power, like, an 8th creature type), WHEN YOU HAVE SURPLUS MONEY.
But consider what happens when at least PART of that surplus money comes as a second (and third and ...) town: you are MUCH better off when you invest your surplus money in ADDING to your already existing army power (which is one of the reasons why better creatures should have a better bang for the (building and hiring) buck: to avoid legions of low tier armies as in HoMM 6, since it's better to build low tier dwellings in conquered towns than to build the high tiers in your original ones) instead of REPLACING army power.
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 10:25 AM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
But consider what happens when at least PART of that surplus money comes as a second (and third and ...) town: you are MUCH better off when you invest your surplus money in ADDING to your already existing army power (which is one of the reasons why better creatures should have a better bang for the (building and hiring) buck: to avoid legions of low tier armies as in HoMM 6, since it's better to build low tier dwellings in conquered towns than to build the high tiers in your original ones) instead of REPLACING army power.
This is, of course, assuming that you're additional towns are of the same faction as your original one.
However, this system can work perfectly well with town conversion, I think. Town conversion is, in this case, clearly beneficial. However, this system puts the game economy, more or less, under a constant strain. Especially when coupled to a high(er) cost, Town Conversion becomes a rewarding investment, but one at great cost.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 10:49 AM |
|
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 10:55 AM |
|
|
|
I'm not so sure if I like the concept of town conversion. When I first saw WOG, I said to myself "finally H3 with convertable towns and buildings that can be demolished!" but the more I used that feature, the more dull I find it to be. It creates kind of a monotony.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 11:15 AM |
|
|
The feature as such is good, if it's implemented into the game, but it should be an editor option: the map maker should have the option to make a towm convertable or not.
There also may be a difference between a random neutral town (which has seen no active building over and above that the town comes with st start) and a conquered town that DID see building (and maybe even conversion). There might be a severe price difference, for example.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 11:59 AM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 15:44, 25 Jun 2014.
|
JollyJoker said:
Stevie said:
AND. I still think that leaving the game solely at the mercy of economy is something risky to say the least.
However, you fail to name a reason for thinking that.
The one that fails is you reading my posts on the last page.
JollyJoker said:
But you have to PAY for them as well. You MUST see this economically, everything else makes no sense: you can only create "surplus" army power (that is, army power that REPLACES already existing army power, like, an 8th creature type), WHEN YOU HAVE SURPLUS MONEY.
But consider what happens when at least PART of that surplus money comes as a second (and third and ...) town: you are MUCH better off when you invest your surplus money in ADDING to your already existing army power (which is one of the reasons why better creatures should have a better bang for the (building and hiring) buck: to avoid legions of low tier armies as in HoMM 6, since it's better to build low tier dwellings in conquered towns than to build the high tiers in your original ones) instead of REPLACING army power.
What?
Dude, let's make things simpler. An example.
In Heroes 6, a Ravenous Ghoul costs 175g, the highest cost of Necro Core. A Fate Weaver costs 2190. So in the same gold as the Weaver, I could hire 12.5 Ghouls.
Tell me, between 1 Fate Weaver and 12.5 Ghouls, which one would you hire?
A more advanced question. You just made the dwelling enabling you to recruit Fate Weavers. By that time you already have 100 Ravenous Ghouls in your army. You don't have money to recruit both 12.5 Ghouls as well as 1 Weaver and you don't even have the army slots to support them both. It's middle game. What would you start hiring, continue with Ghouls or save the money for Weavers, even though they aren't as efficient as your 100 Ghouls at this stage?
The answers to these questions are obvious for me. Under no circumstances I'd prioritize 12.5 Core above 1 Champion, even given that I already have 100 Cores. Heck, make them 200, 300! They will still fall off given enough time. So unless you end the game quickly (at which point, why would you build the Champs dwellings anyway?) Champions would still be a better choice.
I envision 2 gameplay styles in your 4 Cores, 4 Elite, 2 Champions format, if left freely like this. And believe me, economy wouldn't play such a big role.
1. If the map is small and you don't think you'll get late game, then wasting resources to build champion dwellings and recruiting them when they won't ever be efficient would obviously be a waste. So your ultimate goal would be, having an army with Cores and Elites. The amount of resources you'd get would only determine your pathway to that goal and nothing more.
2. If the game goes late, then you'll try to get as soon as possible to Champions. You'd even want to skip some Core and Elite dwellings if there are no prerequisites. If you're in need of dropping some creatures to make room for the biggies, the most efficient way would be to lend them to a secondary party for defensive purposes, map control, gathering resources weakly defended, etc. So in no way would you actually render them useless by not having them on your main Hero. That's a childish way of thinking. Again, economy is just a way to work around this, but ultimately this is what you'd want.
|
|
Steyn
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 12:31 PM |
|
|
|
I don't see what is wrong with giving surplus unit stacks to a secondary hero. This way you will get more than one army prancing around while still being able to use units from your faction only. And sometimes a huge stack of core creatures can be really useful, for example harpies or ranged units. Also the unit speed can play a role. When you want to make an army that can move quickly on the adventure map you might have to use some core over elites.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 04:34 PM |
|
Edited by Maurice at 16:35, 25 Jun 2014.
|
artu said:
I'm not so sure if I like the concept of town conversion. When I first saw WOG, I said to myself "finally H3 with convertable towns and buildings that can be demolished!" but the more I used that feature, the more dull I find it to be. It creates kind of a monotony.
I don't really like the concept as well, especially when it comes to faction specific buildings (which at least includes all creature dwellings). Perhaps the penalty for conversion is too high, but personally I would like to see a town stripped of any and all faction specific buildings after it has been converted. You want to turn the town to your faction? Then (re-)start the town from the bottom after flushing out the 'enemy' structures.
|
|
Steyn
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 25, 2014 05:44 PM |
|
|
You want to seriously disable your opponent? Then convert his town and (re-)start the town from the bottom after flushing out the his structures 
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 26, 2014 12:33 AM |
|
Edited by xerox at 00:57, 26 Jun 2014.
|
I dislike unlimited town conversions aswell. It really makes the game a whole lot more monotonous. Personally, I'm having the best HoMM times when playing on large maps with forces from lots of different towns. Playing around with the same set of units through the whole map is pretty dull (introducing an element of choice when recruiting your own creatures would help solve that though).
One thing that causes imbalance though is when neutral towns are aligned with a specific player's faction. I think a great solution would be to allow for players to convert neutral towns, but not towns controlled by other players. I'm thinking that maybe instead of neutral towns being a specific castle from the get-go, they're all neutral structures which turn into the faction of the first player that captures them.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted June 26, 2014 12:06 PM |
|
Edited by Maurice at 12:09, 26 Jun 2014.
|
Steyn said:
You want to seriously disable your opponent? Then convert his town and (re-)start the town from the bottom after flushing out the his structures
The point is that you don't have a monopoly on that; he can do the same to you, if you don't defend your towns well enough. As such, defending a town becomes more of a priority because losing it may mean destruction. And besides, if you're of the same faction, this tactic can't be used.
To remedy this, I would propose the following:
- Players select a specific race / faction at the start;
- Players cannot build "enemy" structures in towns they captured, even though they can build generic structures like Blacksmiths, Taverns, etc ... (or maybe allow construction of enemy structures at higher costs depending on how far away the two factions are in alignment);
- Before being able to convert a town, the "enemy" structures have to be demolished, one tier at a time;
- Demolition takes one day per tier;
- After demolition, conversion takes a day;
- Building a structure and demolishing a tier of structures are mutually exclusive with regards to town management, per day;
xerox said:
I'm thinking that maybe instead of neutral towns being a specific castle from the get-go, they're all neutral structures which turn into the faction of the first player that captures them.
I actually like this idea. The base village should be neutral, but that shouldn't exclude neutral towns that are somewhat more developed and thereby specific to a certain faction. However, for multiplayer purposes, most neutral towns should be undeveloped and factionless.
|
|
JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 07, 2014 08:39 PM |
|
|
town conversion doesn't make sense logic-wise.
If you convert a town, that town should go back to start like what Markal did to three Academy towns.
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 08, 2014 10:42 AM |
|
|
I also like Xerox idea.
I also like to combine creatures from different races, I found the penalties for that in H4 too heavy.
About demolishing towns: that is possible in WoG and what is our experience? Any top Heroes III player would be indifferent to the chance, because it takes too long. Now, if you were forced to convert by some reason it would be different but in that case dwellings should be automatically destroyed.
|
|
LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
|
posted July 11, 2014 04:32 PM |
|
|
How about having the option of starting the whole map with no towns built, at all?
That's right, starting with an RMG that gives you the option to start with no villages founded and, you start by entering an independent Tavern to hire the hero of the specific faction you have chosen at the RMG's map making choices' window.
Of course, the RMG would, by complete automation, generate the faction specific neutral exterior dwellings to get as many core creatures as you can get from it. Now, you find the center position of that territory(RMG placed accordingly to the size of the map and, how many players there are to that newly generated map-game).
At Easy difficulty: Level one, two, three and, four dwellings can be found(unguarded by neutral creatures), flagged and, hired in the same time.
At Normal difficulty: Level one, two and, three dwellings can be found(weak guarded by neutral creatures), flagged and, hired in the same time.
At Hard difficulty: Level one and, maybe, according to the difficulty of the map made, level two dwelling can be found(medium guarded by neutral creatures), flagged and, hired in the same time.
When the level ones are gathered in generous quantities, a village can be founded(using all of them except one for the Hero to command) with no keep built. The sovereign's Palace(the player's throne and government offices are located) can be built right-a-way at no cost at Easy difficulty, 2,000 GP at Normal difficulty and, 4,000 GP at Hard difficulty. No fences, no gates and, no roads built(until the mines are flagged) at all difficulty levels.
Instead of randomly placed creature weeks on all territories, your own territory will have any of the faction specific creatures put anywhere on that specific territory where, your village, town or, city is situated. The likelyhood of these creatures to join your now, quite experienced Hero is quite strong. At Castle Walls level and passed the level 15 of such City, these extra creatures will automatically join your ranks within the garrison that you have or, do not have, yet.
Levels 5 through 7 can, without any escort of a hero, act as powerful military officers and, will have the ability to take as many level 1 through 4 troops + go out the City and intercept the enemy troops invading the territory. Even, can be transferred to another city or town nearby that is, already, been founded, captured and, flagged by that same, specific faction.
Village looks rather very small and, grows gradually as it levels itself. A totally completed in growth city and, at level 32, will be rather really large + look like a medieval era metropolis. Through a very long game, the citizens of such metropolis like city, will have built, a lot, outside of the Castle walls and, the exterior dwellings will have grown, by themselves upto village status. That territory is now, an imperial country.
We, the players of the 21st century, have very powerful Personal Computers and, video game consoles. I strongly suggest using this processing power and memory holding up to 32 gigabytes to our advantage and, make a revolutionary game that will, in time, survive the many computing changes of the next 10 years.
What do you think of that new concept of a strategy game that is not a completely RPG oriented interface?
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 11, 2014 09:00 PM |
|
|
I share your interest for expanding the "kingdom" side of the game.
However I'm not sure if that's the way to go.
Let me tell you what I like:
- the idea of starting a map with no town and having to found one.
- towns have some sort of leveling system, through population, buildings built or some other mechanism.
Now what I don't like:
- the dwellings thing. I don't see the reason to go beyond the starting army with hiring creatures from dwellings. It shouldn't be mandatory. Perhaps able to check it as an option when generating a map.
- "When the level ones are gathered in generous quantities, a village can be founded"; I don't think founding a town should depend on this, but on other conditions like terrain and hero.
- neutrals generated match selected faction for likelihood to join. Simply no.
- level 5-7 acting as semi-heroes. No more Heroes 4 please.
- "+ look like a medieval era metropolis."; Total War or Civ? Keep it Heroes, settlement should look like the Village Hall or Castle.
Now speaking frankly, I don't think this'll ever happen. So the best chance of this seeing the light of day is as a mod.
|
|
LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
|
|
posted July 15, 2014 05:33 PM |
|
|
Matter of fact, beating Civilization to the throne of king of the strategy gaming...
...is quite the point, here.
This newest proposition of mine is to bring a new life to Might and Magic Heroes' series and, quite possibly, bring a new approach to strategy + war-mongering.
A lot of players would see founding a village a waste of level 1 troops and, would rather use them in large numbers with many level 2 troops + a pack of level 3 troops + several of level 4: an opportunity to go out to the other territories and start conquering the other factions that preferred to settle first instead of making war within the very few days of the first week.
Now, imagine a game that ends within the 3 first weeks of the very 1st month of a normal size map. Results are relative to the skills that the player has over the A.I. or other human players.
Of course, having the check box that allows a really quick start of the game is, quite mandatory, to the many possibilities of tastes when playing hot-seat multiplayer or online multiplayer. Just like Civilization does, already.
Plus, staying true to this type of medieval and magical properties of fantasy gaming such as MMHeroes, will be applied fully. No science research and, no humongous list of possibilities of production of units + units = minimal micro-economics management just like all previous titles of Might and Magic Heroes games of old and not so old.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 18, 2014 12:29 PM |
|
|
|
I can go for 'building' towns, but only if, like the 'buildable' mines in H4, they're restricted to certain pre-set areas.
|
|
LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
|
posted July 18, 2014 05:17 PM |
|
|
Well...of course buddy.
A town can only be founded right at the epicenter of any chosen territory + with no other natural terrain other than a very small hill and plains.
This time around, though, founding a village right next to the beach of a river, a small sea or, the ocean brings the possibility to build your own shipyard. The shipyard can build small and very fast scout ships, average speed frigate-caravel like ships and, the slow but sturdy cargo-freight-warship that is mainly used to travel the ocean with a large army for conquering islands and other continental land masses. If you can remember the previous titles of MMHeroes, sea battles could happen in between ships before the side to side boarding battle would possibly occur.
Yes, that's right, Navy warfare that would enhance an archipalago map's difficulty at reaching the other land masses. Of course, a hero with enough flying skills would be smart to use one or two very powerful units to simply fly a not too wide ocean strait in order to make a devastating surprise invasion. One land invasion army, one naval invasion force of an army and, one quick elite + champion like extremely destructive flying invading fleet.
That should summarize the overall picture of what kind of a way more serious the newest instalment of a might and magic heroes title has to become. Possibilities of strategy would bring this game to a Mature in classification instead of the mere Teen one of the previous titles of the 21st century.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
