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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 23, 2014 06:31 PM |
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Only reason you got me writing this is the fact that I was wondering lately, whether HoMM 4 wouldn't be a better game, if everything was buildable. 
I even asked whether such a Mod exists.
For the actual series - HoMM 1 and 2 actually worked like this, 5 army slots, but 6 buildable troops. No-brainer with Knight and Peasants, but decidedly different with everyone else, economy giving everyone the same opportunities, but different decisions to make.
Tier system 4-4-2 would be pretty cool, because between a very cheap 4-3-0 army and a massively expensive 1-4-2 players had a lot of options, especially if factions were as divers as in HoMM 2.
Also, TEN different creatures per factions would make a faction like Necropolis so much more interesting. Consider:
Core: 4 out of Skeleton Spearmen, Ghosts, Zombies, Ghouls or Mummies
Elite: 4 out of Vampires, Liches, Death Knights, Lamasus or Wraiths
Champion: Ghost Dragons and Fate Weavers
Mummies might be Elite, Death Knights or even Wraiths might be Champions.
I mean, you might go for a 2-4-1 army beating a 3-3-1 or 3-4-0 - provided you played better, which is a whole new dimension in comparison with "I had a weekly production of Elites more, since I got the dwelling built a turn earlier".
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 23, 2014 07:43 PM |
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I'm liking this idea as well. And as I have often advocated, it does away with the dreaded 7 creature limit in the towns. If you want a full army of a single faction(which I do), you have many different ways to compose your army.
Whether on a given map that is economically viable or not is part of the fun and down to it's core, it doesn't matter. As giving the player the freedom to make bad choices is not a bad choice design-wise.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted June 23, 2014 07:53 PM |
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I also like the idea, as introduced by JJ.
My biggest concern is how many factions we would get on start with so many creatures (models) to make, with Ubi recent past historial...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 24, 2014 10:45 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
My biggest concern is how many factions we would get on start with so many creatures (models) to make, with Ubi recent past historial...
I feel for this concern. Supposing this system is introduced, it will likely be constrained greatly by time, budget and competence.
However, this is mitigated somewhat, and I emphasise somewhat, by the fact that you can play single factions in several different ways under this system.
A Necro Army consisting of Skeletons, Ghouls, Ghost, Liches, Vampires, Death Knights and Bone Dragons would play differently (both in fighting with it as against it), as opposed to a Necro Army of Ghouls, Mummies, Vampires, Death Knights, Lamasus, Wraiths and Fate Spinners. Let alone all the other combinations possible.
That being said, your concern still stands. And as always, when possible to balance it, the more factions the better.
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Storm-Giant
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 24, 2014 02:13 PM |
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I Agree.
The only way to avoid this problem would be...to re-use H6 models, something they have already done in Might & Magic X if I'm not mistaken. Certainly that would save some money (and time) since they are already done. But any of the three factions not present would have the initial problem anyway, and I really want to see at least two of them.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 24, 2014 02:58 PM |
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I agree that it would save time and money to reuse old models. Yet I would not advocate it. Even if such things are usually outscourced to an independant art-studio.
And purely from the perspective of Lore as the reuse of models would implicate the retaining of the current time-period, which isn't the one with most potential.
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 24, 2014 08:45 PM |
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I like the idea too. It gives a lot more room for different builds and tactics, so a plus for replayability.
However, if I might add. I feel that there should be some changes to the army composition as well, to match the ones done to creature recruiting.
I'm thinking of having personalized army slots for each hero. Let's continue on the Necro example:
- Say a Necromancer with 7 army slots, with the ability to add one extra if he develops in such a direction, so a max of 8. But his slots will restrict the creature tier which he can take, so in this case, he will have 3x slots for Core creatures, 3x for Elite, and 1 for Champ, and +1 for another Core slot. Such a Necromancer would have lots of expendable minions to throw into the battle while keeping them alive with spells.
- Or perhaps a Death Knight with only 6 slots, but 2 for Core, 2 for Elite and 2 for Champ! So even if he has a 1 slot disadvantage from the classical 7, he will be able to take a second Champion!
One problem that I see tho, is that with such a system you won't be able to split your creatures into slots that don't correspond their tier. But if that could be bypassed somehow, do you guys think this idea could work?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 24, 2014 08:57 PM |
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I'm not rejecting the idea straight away, Stevie, but I don't see why?
What JJ's system adds is quite clear, more creatures and strategy differentiation. But I don't see your point yet.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 24, 2014 08:59 PM |
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Wouldn't this system be a nightmare to balance?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 24, 2014 09:02 PM |
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xerox said:
Wouldn't this system be a nightmare to balance?
Which one? Stevie's or JJ's?
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Storm-Giant
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posted June 24, 2014 09:04 PM |
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Not like balance matters a lot in Heroes TBH
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 24, 2014 09:39 PM |
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Well the idea behind it is to force people to take a number of lower tier creatures too, instead of taking only Champs and Elites. Like, who wouldn't want to have both Fate weaver and Dragons in their army? And, to have some sort of specialization for Heroes that is relevant beyond the +1 att/deff per 2 levels.
I'm not convinced myself about this, but I guess putting it out there is better than not, maybe someone might consider it.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted June 24, 2014 09:43 PM |
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I think the strain on ones economy to take 2 champions at once should be enough of a deterrent.
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 24, 2014 10:39 PM |
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I highly doubt that economical strains are enough. Imo, they never were. Secondly, you leave that at the mercy of mapmaking. Thirdly, strains or not, I doubt we would see anything but armies of 4 Elites and 2 Champs after the mid game.
In short, the risks of things going south is quite big. And I'd say that because of mapmaking it's prone to go south. So with this in mind, I think a forced decision accompanied by variability within that is a safe bet to avoid imbalance.
My 2 cents if nothing else.
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Storm-Giant
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 24, 2014 11:10 PM |
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You cannot afford to sustaing 4 elites and 2 Champions Stevie. Or if you try, you'll most likely find in a situation with less power (in numbers) than your enemy.
Mapmakers can adapt to the game (and game economy).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2014 04:57 AM |
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Economy is the ONLY relevant factor here.
You can sum that simply up by saying that provided both main heroes managed to gain the same amount of XP, the moment two main armies clash the player who has spent more money on it wins.
So it is not good, when you have unrecruited troops in your town: instead of hiring you decided to spend a lot of money for an expensive upgrade, and before you could hire out, enemy attacked you.
It's just as bad, though, if you meet and you have a lot of money, meaning, you COULD have spent it on something, but didn't, because you didn't think it would come to that and you could win sooner.
Considering this, with the proposed 4-4-2 setup you'd have to play with some idea of what to do. There would be building prerequisites, of course, and interdependencies, but it's clear that unless a map maker would make something freakish, on a small map a 4-3-0 setup might well prove to be the best approach - but a 3-4-0 would be better.
Additionally, the upgrades (and you obviously wouldn't need upgrades for each and every unit here) would spice things up. For example, you wouldn't want HoMM 3 like Vampires as Elites, you would want LORDS or nothing.
Which would be the thing to handle with care in game design: the upgrades.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 25, 2014 05:19 AM |
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So, in your system, the buildings for all fraction units are constructable at the same time (unlike H4 and 5 which you have to choose an alternative), the only thing limiting you is army slots AND you also have upgrades besides an improved variety? That may be too much, it can create an overdesign effect. Maybe only the top tier creatures should have upgrades or even better, only mid-level creatures and the upgrades are alternated like in H5. That would bring enormous strategic variation.
Btw, if the only limitation would be slots, I'd produce all units, leaving the better defending ones in town and taking the offensive units along with the hero.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2014 07:57 AM |
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It's a refined HoMM 2 system (with more creatures and army slots), and in HoMM 2 not every creature has an upgrade.
I don't think that the mandatory upgrade for everyone of HoMM 3/5/6 makes a lot of sense, because in reality they are offering no options.
You will ALWAYS go for NEW creature and will upgrade only those basic creatures where the upgrade is necessary for the creeping effort. For example, with Inferno, in HoMM 5, you absolutely need the Imp upgrade.
Also, because the lower tiers are cheap you use some to increase town levels.
That's why 6 added numbers with the upgrade (but in vanilla, at least, that made UPGRADING better than going for new creature).
The economy doesn't allow you to build and hire all units - you MUST concentrate on optimizing, otherwise you leave too many troops unhired, and in that case you'd have wasted the building costs (also, there are other buildings than troop dwellings).
There is another thing: Once you have your 7 slots filled, building a new dwelling will build new troop strength from scratch: however, you already HAVE a certain strength, since your weakest units are those that are longest in production. Replacing isn't that much of an option.
That would be different only, if you'd CONQUER a halfway built town with some production amassed - still it would be better if you had built that same dwelling (no need to replace).
Bottom line is - correct design and play will need you to formulate a building strategy that inclufes 7 units. In some cases it may be revised due to the map or the situation, but generally you must do so. Giving alternatives is just limiting your options.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted June 25, 2014 08:51 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
also, there are other buildings than troop dwellings
And quite a lot of them. With heroes 6 abandoning the mage guild it felt as if there were too few other buildings left. Also prerequisites are a must, because they make building a town feel more natural. How can your town be a capitol city without a tavern or marketplace?!
A building I would like to see is (an upgrade of) the blacksmith increasing the income from mines in the towns area of control. The blacksmith makes better (pick)axes, which means the lumberjack and ore miner can produce faster. I don't like the idea of town level, exept perhaps for (automatically?) building town/city hall and capitol, as these buildings reflect the size of the town.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2014 09:28 AM |
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I like Steyn's idea. Have some buildings that increase your outside resource production.
AND. I still think that leaving the game solely at the mercy of economy is something risky to say the least.
AND you couldn't be more wrong about replacing. Certainly you wouldn't replace lower tier creatures exactly after having 3 dragons to recruit. But you'd really prefer them if they were 10 instead of any Core creature even if it amassed since the beginning of the game.
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