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| Thread: Magic heroes weaker than might? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
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nnonn
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 27, 2014 02:54 AM |
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Magic heroes weaker than might?
Hello  A nooby question.....
I am coming from Heroes 2 and now I play H3 a little bit more serious.
I entered one of the tournament sites of the game to see some statistics about the races and the heroes.
I was surprised to see that all of the 20 most picked heroes was might.
Is it possible to have any stable magic hero as main, witch is magic.
Like come on, I understand about Castle and Stronghold, but Dungeon and Tower???
In Heroes 2 I mostly played with Wizard and Warlock and in there, as you may know, all of the heroes in one town, got the same abilities. All the wizard and warlock heroes were magic type of heroes. And it was great and balanced (most of the time).
As I see here, from my first impression, you just can't have a good magic hero - even if you play dungeon or tower....Mights are just better...
So tell me please - Witch is the best magic hero and can I play on queen difficulty with magic heroes and got no problem with the bots???
I don't try to be pro or something, I only want to play on one level with my friends and to be even better than them. We all are very addicted to this game right now and there are epic hotseats at the parties(sadly no one wants to play heroes 2...).
Non of them think that magic heroes are weak, but I wanted to check in out for my self.
We got 2 rules, when we play:
1. No necro\conflux allowed to pick
2. No Sir Mullich (tell me- are there any version of the game, when we can ban this b***h)
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Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 06:25 AM |
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nnonn said:
Hello A nooby question.....
I am coming from Heroes 2 and now I play H3 a little bit more serious.
I entered one of the tournament sites of the game to see some statistics about the races and the heroes.
I was surprised to see that all of the 20 most picked heroes was might.
Is it possible to have any stable magic hero as main, witch is magic.
Like come on, I understand about Castle and Stronghold, but Dungeon and Tower???
In Heroes 2 I mostly played with Wizard and Warlock and in there, as you may know, all of the heroes in one town, got the same abilities. All the wizard and warlock heroes were magic type of heroes. And it was great and balanced (most of the time).
As I see here, from my first impression, you just can't have a good magic hero - even if you play dungeon or tower....Mights are just better...
So tell me please - Witch is the best magic hero and can I play on queen difficulty with magic heroes and got no problem with the bots???
I don't try to be pro or something, I only want to play on one level with my friends and to be even better than them. We all are very addicted to this game right now and there are epic hotseats at the parties(sadly no one wants to play heroes 2...).
Non of them think that magic heroes are weak, but I wanted to check in out for my self.
We got 2 rules, when we play:
1. No necro\conflux allowed to pick
2. No Sir Mullich (tell me- are there any version of the game, when we can ban this b***h)
From my little knowledge of the game -I am also a noob- it is actually the other way around; might heroes are weaker than magic heroes, afaik.
That's one of the very few flaws of Heroes of Might and Magic 3 compared to other Heroes games --say Heroes V.
With a pure might hero you can't attack from afar, and that's a huge disadvantage against a magic hero, to the point that you probably have no chance to compete or win in certain situations.
Am I wrong?
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Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 27, 2014 09:51 AM |
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You are wrong.
Might heroes are better because the best (and most affordable) spells are level 1 - haste and slow - and usually the army benefits more from high Attack/Defense + haste/slow rather than high Spell Power that will get useless once the armies become too big, or high knowledge which is rare to fully use it.
This applies specially to Multiplayer and normal scenarios, in campaigns it isn't so important I believe.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 10:52 AM |
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Unfortunately, Magic heroes are considerably weaker. In addition to SG's above points, Magic heroes are more likely to obtain less useful skills when levelling up (Learning, First Aid, Eagle Eye, Sorcery, Scholar, Mysicism) and less likely to obtain crucial skills boosting your army's power (Offence, Armourer,...).
Spell power doesn't cut it since its effect isn't sufficiently significant for most spells.
Of course, you can choose Magic heroes but things are going to be tougher. The best Magic heroes are those who advance best in Attack/Defence. See Rainalcars "Tribute to Strategists for such stuff:
http://heroescommunity.com/filespace/file/HoMM%203%20Tribute%20to%20Strategists.pdf
As for Mullich, you can edit the maps and turn him off. In Horn of the Abyss he is replaced by Lord Haart by default.
H3 Tournament Edition disables him by default (beside other substantial gameplay changes).
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 27, 2014 10:52 AM |
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In the early and midgame, the Might Heroes really shine. It's only by late game (and then I mean Heroes at level 30+) that Magic Heroes catch up and go beyond what Might Heroes can do. Most games - especially Multiplayer games - don't get that far.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 11:47 AM |
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Even after level 30 or more Might heroes >>> Magic Heroes.
As for the useful magic ones, I'd say Luna and Ciele are one of the best heroes in entire game.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 11:52 AM |
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Yeah, Luna can beat whole (neatral) armies with only one Pixie.
But then again, the bonuses of many other spell specialists are hardly noticeable.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 27, 2014 12:34 PM |
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Sarcyan said:
With a pure might hero you can't [...]
You're right that pure magic beats pure might, but that's not what people choose. People use spells with a might hero, just with lower power/knowledge stats than what a magic hero has.
To answer the OP's question. It heavily depends on the rules.. stuff like no fly/dd, no hit&run, etc. makes stats like power and knowledge much less valuable.
Edit:
E.g. with the current rules, this is correct:
Storm-Giant said:
[...] rather than high Spell Power that will get useless once the armies become too big
But with no rules, at ~week 3, it doesn't take long to get a new hero up to around 10-15 in power, give him armageddon/implosion and hit&run the target for ~1 weeks worth of town production each time, quickly decimating the opponent when doing so with multiple heroes.
The main problem is, I believe, in a no rules game, the game play itself takes too long, in stead of check mating at a final confrontation between two mains, after huge diplo raised armies gets decimated, gorilla war would ensue until a long, tedious, boring, long drawn out multiple shifting ties war would finally find a victor (or it could go on forever, who knows...)
Quote:
in campaigns it isn't so important I believe.
I prefer magic in campaigns. Since stats & spells carry over, but creatures don't, get the good spells and high power/knowledge early and the later maps usually become very very easy.
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Living time backwards
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nnonn
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 27, 2014 12:47 PM |
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And what about Black dragons\Armageddon strategy?
I see a lot of my friends using this one with Malekith and just destroying a HUGE opponent armies without a single lost... Just flying throught the map....
What do you think about this strategy and how to counter it and witch is the best magic hero out there (necto\elemental not included) ?
Also I heard that you can ban races and make custom teams with the Heroes HD? Is that true?
Thank you for the answers
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted March 27, 2014 12:52 PM |
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Cure and dispel are level one spells as well and might heroes benefit from them when water magic available.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 27, 2014 12:55 PM |
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The problem with non-phoenix & armageddon is that your opponent can use mass haste and potentially destroy your dragons long before you even get to cast.
Since you may not simply cast & surrender according to the rules, this hero of yours is now lost (though if you've the wealth you could maybe find it again in the tavern, if you're the attacker). You also run the risk of your opponent now gets to hire this hero of yours, who doesn't need creatures to work well, hence the opponent doesn't have to throw resources at it.
Even if you've a phoenix, the opponent may have a phoenix too and attack first (+speed boosting arts), hence it's not the best way to go through unexplored territory (being the front hero).
Finally there are artifacts such as shackles of war (if hit&run is allowed), red orb and recanter's cloak, making the tactic unusable. Again if the spell caster is not the front hero, it's possible to send less valuable scouts ahead and check for these artifacts by trying to surrender (not necessarily doing so), and trying to cast level 3+ spells (not necessarily doing so)
Edit: Re-reading the OP:
Quote:
Witch is the best magic hero and can I play on queen difficulty with magic heroes and got no problem with the bots???
Against the AI/Bots, it really doesn't matter. It doesn't use spells well, it doesn't build up its town very fast, etc. unless you get ganged up on really early in the game, it shouldn't matter much.
Quote:
We got 2 rules, when we play:
1. No necro\conflux allowed to pick
2. No Sir Mullich (tell me- are there any version of the game, when we can ban this b***h)
Then it's probably going to be the one who's best/luckiest at gathering troops through diplomacy who'll do best, but the AI won't really do this, so it won't do much on the map.
If you play against each other, it'll be very luck dependent, because diplo can give you zombies as well as archers, if you follow..
hit&run can draw out the game, if the diplo armies falls before someone gets anti hit&run arties, it'll be a drawn out guerilla warfare.. if someone gets anti hit&run arties, this side will likely win.. if more than one side gets anti hit&run arties, the best bet is probably crag hack with red orb, shackles, armor of the damned, etc.
Be prepared for losing and capturing towns all the time and explore the map quickly to avoid getting attacked when least prepared for it all thanks to DD..
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Living time backwards
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 04:49 PM |
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The problem is Game Theory, first to act, slow and then comes cure (possibly). If you counter with high damage dealing spells you're mostly toast as then starts blind, etc. Unless it's a small army. So you're forced to counter his slow with a cure or a slow of your own.
The game is kinda partly ruined by these mass-spells that can be used by any hero who just gets the skill. Also random maps have way to much stuff so people level up way to fast.
But here's the kicker. If you don't care about slow (you have a slow/archer based army) and it's about mid game then you can start dropping spells on him. So he probably starts out with haste or shield first. A good skill to have in this case in tactics.
But anyway all of this becomes moot in the end when you start casting blind on each other if the stacks are to big.
I really only see one use for great spellpower and that's if you have super tanky units, relatively high defense and you do not care to advance to the enemy. You simply don't care if he blinds one of them. If he blinds two you mass cure or even better! Mass dispell (his shields and his hastes and what ever he may have too!) and just keep dropping implosions. This can potentially even work against a large archer army shooting from far away. Archers are often weak in HP so implosions will do alot of damage. You can throw in some teleports there as well.
There are tactics that can be used. But generally due to the mass-spell spaming of most of the game where it makes sense to spam or counter-spam then it's not that good.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 04:55 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
Sarcyan said:
With a pure might hero you can't [...]
You're right that pure magic beats pure might, but that's not what people choose. People use spells with a might hero, just with lower power/knowledge stats than what a magic hero has.
To answer the OP's question. It heavily depends on the rules.. stuff like no fly/dd, no hit&run, etc. makes stats like power and knowledge much less valuable.
Edit:
E.g. with the current rules, this is correct:
Storm-Giant said:
[...] rather than high Spell Power that will get useless once the armies become too big
But with no rules, at ~week 3, it doesn't take long to get a new hero up to around 10-15 in power, give him armageddon/implosion and hit&run the target for ~1 weeks worth of town production each time, quickly decimating the opponent when doing so with multiple heroes.
The main problem is, I believe, in a no rules game, the game play itself takes too long, in stead of check mating at a final confrontation between two mains, after huge diplo raised armies gets decimated, gorilla war would ensue until a long, tedious, boring, long drawn out multiple shifting ties war would finally find a victor (or it could go on forever, who knows...)
Quote:
in campaigns it isn't so important I believe.
I prefer magic in campaigns. Since stats & spells carry over, but creatures don't, get the good spells and high power/knowledge early and the later maps usually become very very easy.
To fix this type of thing spells that deal with teleportation, potentially even fly and water-walking should be removed and alot more shrouds of darkness added (FOG-of-War adding statues). So as to force back the importance of scouts and split armies.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 27, 2014 05:02 PM |
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They are banned as it is, as far as I know, hence knowledge stat losing a lot of value.
Btw. if your opponent starts off a battle with mass slow.. mass haste should follow immediately from your side (since it also removes the effect of slow).
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Living time backwards
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 05:58 PM |
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nnonn said:
I entered one of the tournament sites of the game to see some statistics about the races and the heroes.
I was surprised to see that all of the 20 most picked heroes was might.
Is it possible to have any stable magic hero as main, witch is magic.
I believe it is also a matter of perspective: if u look from a Tournament point of view, there is no way a magic hero can beat the might ones. Even if your hero is a spell specialist you will be casting mostly level 1 spells, first because they are better, second because you rarely get to build level 3 or hier magic guilds before the end of the game.
So, a might hero can cast the same spells, has better primary skills distribution and will probably be able to learn earth and maybe another magic school along with wisdom and will have much better chances to learn important might secondary skills like offense, tactics and armourer.
Now, if u are playing maps designed by users things can be really different. In that case a map can be unbeatable with some might heroes like for instance rangers, they simply wont work if you need to use Berserker to win, nor barbarians will work if you need mass water spells like cure, dispel and forgetfullness as in a fight against a customized hero with good spells, apropriate magic schools and both enchanters and master genies in his army.
There is also the classic summon elementals, blind and resurrection trick, where u can recover all your loses after an hard fight against a much better might hero just because you have the apropriate spells and tons of spell points. You rarely have a chance to use this in ToH but is common ground in XL maps against computer...
There is a thread in Library called "Small Tricks versus AI" where u can find some examples of the use of magic to win otherwize impossible battles.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 06:47 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 18:50, 27 Mar 2014.
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Werll obv mass haste should follow but only if you've actually got expert air. Let's remember that we are talking about some pretty damn ideal situations here.
Exper Air, Earth, Water and I assume Armorer, Offense, etc.
Do you guys play WoG so you turn on the option for more skill picks?
And how do you deal with banning of spells? What if someone gets fly as his level 5 spell... slot wasted? or do you have RNGs that auto ban it?
And yeah generally the problem with M-L randoms is that they are just to snowty. To much crap, to easy to access various important buildings, etc.
 But I guess if you play game to much then good 2v2/3v3 L&XL maps get to boring?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted March 27, 2014 08:10 PM |
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master_learn said:
Cure and dispel are level one spells as well and might heroes benefit from them when water magic available.
Yea follow Death Knight example
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 08:58 PM |
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Aron said:
Werll obv mass haste should follow but only if you've actually got expert air. Let's remember that we are talking about some pretty damn ideal situations here.
Exper Air, Earth, Water and I assume Armorer, Offense, etc.
Do you guys play WoG so you turn on the option for more skill picks?
It's super easy. 90% Barbarians/Overlords/Death Knights/Daemoniacs do have such skills.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 27, 2014 09:23 PM |
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revolut1oN said:
It's super easy. 90% Barbarians/Overlords/Death Knights/Daemoniacs do have such skills.
U r being ironic, right? Barbarians can't even get water.
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Homm_FTW
Hired Hero
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posted March 28, 2014 12:09 AM |
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nnonn said:
Hello A nooby question.....
I am coming from Heroes 2 and now I play H3 a little bit more serious.
I entered one of the tournament sites of the game to see some statistics about the races and the heroes.
I was surprised to see that all of the 20 most picked heroes was might.
Is it possible to have any stable magic hero as main, witch is magic.
Like come on, I understand about Castle and Stronghold, but Dungeon and Tower???
In Heroes 2 I mostly played with Wizard and Warlock and in there, as you may know, all of the heroes in one town, got the same abilities. All the wizard and warlock heroes were magic type of heroes. And it was great and balanced (most of the time).
As I see here, from my first impression, you just can't have a good magic hero - even if you play dungeon or tower....Mights are just better...
So tell me please - Witch is the best magic hero and can I play on queen difficulty with magic heroes and got no problem with the bots???
I don't try to be pro or something, I only want to play on one level with my friends and to be even better than them. We all are very addicted to this game right now and there are epic hotseats at the parties(sadly no one wants to play heroes 2...).
Non of them think that magic heroes are weak, but I wanted to check in out for my self.
We got 2 rules, when we play:
1. No necro\conflux allowed to pick
2. No Sir Mullich (tell me- are there any version of the game, when we can ban this b***h)
It mainly depends on the situation. If a mage has a bit more less weaker troops than a might than they may be able to win because blind spells and berserk can KILL. If a player with might has good def and at they could lose unless they have magic resistance or dragons. Hope this helped!
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Living life!
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