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| Thread: Magic heroes weaker than might? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 28, 2014 02:32 AM |
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Yup ideal situation for a mage is for both to have high def. Ideal situation for a might is for both to have high attack unless facing massive archer armies with slow units (rare).
High here meaning relative, of course a might hero will have higher might stats in general.
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Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 28, 2014 03:39 AM |
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Edited by Sarcyan at 07:06, 30 Mar 2014.
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Some quite fascinating stuff in this thread, ranging from very useful through beautifully conceived strategies that I am going to apply in the future. I am playing Heroes of Might and Magic 3 as of currently and trying to complete the campaigns -got to the final scenario of the Spoils of War campaign for now-, then it will be time for Heroes of Might and Magic IV, then V.
I treasure Heroes of Might and Magic 3 and the people who play it. Some of you people are geeks and strategists of the highest order. Thanks for sharing, that shall be very helpful.
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Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted March 28, 2014 06:33 AM |
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Heroes III dropped the ball on magic system. For every spell balanced better than in Heroes II, they broke two. Mass spells are high level in Heroes 2: haste and bless are level3, slow is level4.
The advantage of high attack/defense is very big. On top of that, might heroes are not actually worse at casting. Haste, Slow, Stoneskin, Shield, Bloodlust don't benefit from Spell Power, and 3 turns of Haste can be enough to wreck a spellcaster. If you try to counter with Cure or Slow, you're trying to beat him at his own game. Blind is an overpowered spell accessible without Wisdom and not reliant on spell power. You have to burn a spell to cure it, or cast Blind yourself. Either way, you're not getting ahead, because Might heroes have much better troops.
It's made worse by the fact Slow, Haste, Bloodlust, Shield are all common level1 spells. It's an expensive gamble to make your way towards Berserk (but a might hero is just as good at berserking!).
Magic Guild is very expensive, and to build it early you'd have to sacrifice level7 units. To really benefit from it, you need to train Wisdom, and the skill is of no use in early game.
Heroes III also significantly increased HP growth per week. You're getting much more creatures, and HP of an individual creature was substantially increased. The effect of direct damage spells remained the same, except for the new spell Implosion. I don't remember the exact gain off top of my head, but Imps have 5 HP and they're the weakest level1. Centaurs in Heroes2 had 5HP and they were the toughest.
In Heroes 2 direct damage spells were often frustrating. Wading through a swamp of throwaway junk casters with Lightning Bolt was painful, and casters were powerful in early game. Either way, classic HOMM direct damage spells are fundamentally broken, either too weak or too strong. Creatures grow in a linear manner, spell power grows with levels which is logarithmic (opposite of power function).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 28, 2014 07:15 AM |
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That's exactly right. Not only did you have less creatures in HoMM 2 and less HPs on the map, you'd have a lot less HPs in a "Might town" then in a "Magic town", generally spoken.
For example, the best creature of the Knight town - Haven or "Castle" in HoMM 3 - had 65 HPs only and would produce 4 each week for 260 HPs, while the Warlock town would produce 3 Dragons which would come with 600-900 HPs, depending on their upgrade state (but of course the dragons would be way more expensive to build and to buy).
That in turn meant, if you played a Warlock against a Knight, not only did you have way more stalwart creatures, in early and midgame you could fend off might with a couple of Lightning Bolts and the durability of your lower level creatures, while Might would really HIT, if and when they hit.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 28, 2014 03:01 PM |
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the knight can also learn all the spells and have a level 5 magic guild. lightning bolt was generally good with everyone, it had extremly high damage for a tier 2 spell.
wasn't there a glitch with the well, like it was actually supposed to double the growth instead of increasing it by 2? (also it was super cheap if I remember well, compared to a castle in homm3)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 28, 2014 04:34 PM |
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Fauch, a town also earned "super cheap". 
And sure, a Knight MIGHT learn Wisdom eventually - that was his advantage compared to the Barbarian, who is a better attacker, but has very low chances of getting Wisdom and learbing higher level spells even though every town could build a 5-level guild.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 28, 2014 06:04 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:07, 28 Mar 2014.
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oh yes, and you often couldn't even buy what the well would provide. actually, that was one of the few cheap stuffs in the game.
I don't know the probabilities, but according to the manual, barbarian has high probability for skills like pathfinding, logistics or archery which are pretty good.
apart from wisdom, the warlock has high probability for skills like eagle eye, mysticism, scouting, and even starts with scouting, which could be considered a wasted slot.
the knight has the highest chance of all to get a diplomacy + estates combo, which, I suppose, would be more or less the strategy to use in a competitive game?
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2014 07:35 AM |
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Who did mass-resurrect to dig up all these HoMM2 fanboys all of a sudden?! 
(Really though, I agree with everything!)
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Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2014 07:59 AM |
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Edited by Sarcyan at 08:25, 30 Mar 2014.
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B0rsuk said:
Heroes III dropped the ball on magic system. For every spell balanced better than in Heroes II, they broke two. Mass spells are high level in Heroes 2: haste and bless are level3, slow is level4.
The advantage of high attack/defense is very big. On top of that, might heroes are not actually worse at casting. Haste, Slow, Stoneskin, Shield, Bloodlust don't benefit from Spell Power, and 3 turns of Haste can be enough to wreck a spellcaster. If you try to counter with Cure or Slow, you're trying to beat him at his own game. Blind is an overpowered spell accessible without Wisdom and not reliant on spell power. You have to burn a spell to cure it, or cast Blind yourself. Either way, you're not getting ahead, because Might heroes have much better troops.
It's made worse by the fact Slow, Haste, Bloodlust, Shield are all common level1 spells. It's an expensive gamble to make your way towards Berserk (but a might hero is just as good at berserking!).
Magic Guild is very expensive, and to build it early you'd have to sacrifice level7 units. To really benefit from it, you need to train Wisdom, and the skill is of no use in early game.
Heroes III also significantly increased HP growth per week. You're getting much more creatures, and HP of an individual creature was substantially increased. The effect of direct damage spells remained the same, except for the new spell Implosion. I don't remember the exact gain off top of my head, but Imps have 5 HP and they're the weakest level1. Centaurs in Heroes2 had 5HP and they were the toughest.
In Heroes 2 direct damage spells were often frustrating. Wading through a swamp of throwaway junk casters with Lightning Bolt was painful, and casters were powerful in early game. Either way, classic HOMM direct damage spells are fundamentally broken, either too weak or too strong. Creatures grow in a linear manner, spell power grows with levels which is logarithmic (opposite of power function).
One thing I noticed in Heroes 3 -I began the Long Live the King campaign today and I am loving it so much- is that all my heroes, whether they are might heroes or magic heroes, become indistinctly hybrids at some point --around level 13-14 and above.
I never ever went above level 24 for now, but that's what I've experienced in the game.
Which I consider a flaw.
For instance, Sorsha -a knight- became a powerhouse at level 24 in one of my campaigns. She was pretty good at attack/defence, and expectedly so, but also magic.
That being said, magic heroes have a bit of a disadvantage there in Heroes 3, and if you find one early in the game with a might hero, you can beat them to a pulp!
I find it unfair that you can reduce a magic hero to pulp when playing with a might hero because their magic is as good as yours.
I mean, what's the point of doing more magic damage with Spell Power when the best magic spells do zero damage? 
Another very unfair situation is that might and magic heroes both have Morale for their troops, but this is obviously much more beneficial to the might heroes. So is Luck.
Why? Because the magic heroes can't cast more than one spell per turn. If they could do that then things would be much more balanced!
To make matters worse, and to top *all the goodies off*, as of currently in the campaign, my magic necromancer heroes have to invest a lot of time and resources to learn the top tier magic spells.
Not to mention I have to go back to my city once in a while to replenish my spell points, which you certainly need in tough battles.
This I am okay with, it's part of a smart design of the game, and make things interesting. But a might hero can progress without returning to their city, because they don't need to, so in a 1 vs 1 situation where you are low on spell points you are going to have a hard time --I am okay with that, if magic heroes where capable anough regardless of the level.
So to me the solutions to fix that are:
1. let magic heroes cast spells twice or thrice or even four times per turn, depending on their level.
This in order to counter possible Morale (also luck) effects -which might heroes benefit the most from- and single, low tier but very powerful spells from might heroes --say....you cast Blind, then might hero casts also Blind on a creature of yours, and then you cast Bless on that creature in the same turn afterwards.
2. limit the hybrid heroes to certain hybrid classes, without either making the might heroes to be just brute force and defence, nor the magic heroes should be only great at magic but other than that gimpy and defenceless
The heroes, might or magic, should be very different at a high level, rather than being almost indistinguishable.
The game would become even more strategic -which is a feat taking into account that we are talking about one of the best games ever made-.
The solution would be that, for instance, a magic hero at level 25 should have very high magic levels but very low defence and attack levels, limiting their progress at that, 'cos it's not their game.
Say, if you find aMercenary Camp, magic heroes can only get 0.2 defence from it instead of 1 -hybrid heroes could get 0.6 or so, pure might 1.
You could also forbid magic heroes to wear certain artifacts, or limit the perks from some artifact the same way you could limit the bonus magic heroes get from a mercenary camp.
The same can be said about a might hero. Let's imagine you have a level 24 warrior. He/she should have a very high attack and defence but very very low magic levels.
Also you could limit them to become skilled at one type of magic, or some very specific spells, low or high level. This would make the differences between heroes more real life like.
I mean, I like to reunite and congregate all my heroes when I have s good Scholar among them, and mutually teach every single spell to my 8 heroes in the campaign.
It's cool, but that could be achieved equally just teaching and sharing like always but limiting the different kinds of heroes at what they can teach/learn and what not --not having everyone learning the same.
You wouldn't lose the benefits of a Scholar, and also would keep each hero even more unique.
I think these are possible fixes so we don't find ourselves in situations you have pointed out already.
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Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
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Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2014 08:25 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
That's exactly right. Not only did you have less creatures in HoMM 2 and less HPs on the map, you'd have a lot less HPs in a "Might town" then in a "Magic town", generally spoken.
For example, the best creature of the Knight town - Haven or "Castle" in HoMM 3 - had 65 HPs only and would produce 4 each week for 260 HPs, while the Warlock town would produce 3 Dragons which would come with 600-900 HPs, depending on their upgrade state (but of course the dragons would be way more expensive to build and to buy).
That in turn meant, if you played a Warlock against a Knight, not only did you have way more stalwart creatures, in early and midgame you could fend off might with a couple of Lightning Bolts and the durability of your lower level creatures, while Might would really HIT, if and when they hit.
That's pretty interesting stuff. I haven't noticed those differences, except for the fact that some creatures in Heroes 2 were extremely powerful and deceiving if you only looked at their numbers.
It was kind of a mystery to me as to how the game worked.
I just completed the Roland's campaign in Heroes 2, and began the first scenario of one of the expansions, and that's it.
But I noticed in that scenario that the economy of the game is very different compared to Heroes 3.
The AI attacked my town earlier but wasn't strong enough to confront me on my castle and I decided to wait at the castle's doors for a week, so I could hire new creatures.
I thought I'd have plenty of money, but boy, was I wrong! I purchased 5 minotaurs and got out of moneys.
Saved the game there and didn't return to it ever cinse, but I think that the fate of my castle is sealed. --there were two CPU heroes wandering around.
Btw, back to the previous post. I think unique objects for might or magic heroes would be a cool addition.
Or even if they can be worn by every single heroes, attack and defence bonus should only affect the might heroes fully, while knowledge and power bonuses would only affect magic heroes to their full extent, while being of limited use for might heroes.
If an object gives you +4 to all your main stats, it could give, for instance, +1 on attack and defence to a might hero, and +0.2 to attack and defence to a magic hero.
It'd be the other way around for Knowledge and Power, +1 to a magic hero and +0.2 to a might hero. Just sayin'
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Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted March 30, 2014 09:09 AM |
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I'll admit the corruption started with expansion to my favorite game, HOMM2. In Price of Loyalty gold mines are VERY common, practically every major city has one. I suppose they were happy with the result, because that's how much your typical city earns in Heroes 3.
OP: Very good point about hybridization. Past level 10 heroes DO become less distinctive. This is in part by design - primary skill percentages DO change after level 10 for almost all classes. A knight, for example, gets 25% Attack, 25% Defense, 25% Knowledge, 25% Willpower. Same as Necromancer, actually.
Another reason why the sameness kicks in is because you end up getting artifacts and +1 stat map locations all across the board. This also started in Heroes2, which I'm very unhappy about. I think it was one of worst design decisions ever - makes every hero look the same. You proposed to restrict artifacts from certain classes, I have another idea:
Each hero has a Primary Stat and Secondary Stat. In case of the Knight, Defense would be Primary and Offense would be Secondary. Artifacts and locations would be reworked so they boost primary and/or secondary stats instead of hardcoded Attack, Defense etc. Amulet of Awesomeness would give +2Defense and +1Attack to a Knight, but +2 Wisdom and +1 Spell Power to a sorceress.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo RSA Animate - Smile or die
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted March 30, 2014 09:58 AM |
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Sarcyan said:
1. let magic heroes cast spells twice or thrice or even four times per turn, depending on their level.
This in order to counter possible Morale (also luck) effects -which might heroes benefit the most from- and single, low tier but very powerful spells from might heroes --say....you cast Blind, then might hero casts also Blind on a creature of yours, and then you cast Bless on that creature in the same turn afterwards.
Why not give the magic heroes mass blind and mass resurrection instead?
Even one cast at a time is more than enough with sertain artifacts,namely the black orb.
And even if you can cast 20 times per turn  ,what can you do against the red orb?
And with expert fire you could berserk all the army a might hero has with 3 casts.
Hmm...but come to think of it,3/4 forcefields per turn is delicious in my eyes!
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 30, 2014 02:24 PM |
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"Sameness" is in fact an advantage for MIGHT heroes: Compare these two hero pairs:
1) 7 7 2 2 and 2 2 7 7
2) 10 10 5 5 and 5 5 10 10
The Might difference is the same, so the passive might advantage of the might heroes makes no difference in both cases.
However, it's not the DIFFERENCE, that's essential for the Magic stats, the absolute vaue; a hero with Power and Knowledge 2 won't be able to cast many spells; also, mid level might heroes have good chances to be "caught" without an expert magic skill and therefore without mass spells.
The second combo looks WAY different - more levels mean that the might hero will be able to cast mass spells - and cast them for a couple of turns, spells lasting FIVE instead only 2 turns. Which ACTUALLY means, that when you have hero pair 2 in a fight the passive advantage is in effect throughout, while the heroes are more or less equal in magic for the first 5 turns at least, except for the raw damage spells, but that would give the might hero a "free" mass spell.
Bottom line is, "sameness" is working in favor of the MIGHT hero.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 30, 2014 04:02 PM |
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What if you use higher numbers?
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Living time backwards
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 30, 2014 04:40 PM |
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Sarcyan said:
The heroes, might or magic, should be very different at a high level, rather than being almost indistinguishable
I agree with Master_Learn that having magic heroes cast two or three times would be a bit like to have my dream spell (Mass Blind).
But I think you also have a point: it doesn't matter if I start with Neela, Gundula or Kyrre. I always end up with mostly the same secondary skills, as a matter of fact it is probable that one hero varys more from on map to another then two heroes vary between themeselves. If I have the chance they all get Earth, Air/Water, Wisdom, Logistics, Offense/Archery, Armourer and Tactics.
Developers tried to solve this problem in Heroes IV and in fact might skills became completly different from magic skills and a hero who is basicly magic can usually do a lot more with magic then an hero who is basicly a might hero.
But this is not considering human options, if you look at my high level heroes the initial difference faints: magic hero is most of the times the best one in Combat, because he tends to upgrade Combat in every Veteran's Guild he visits, while my Might (better called Tactics) hero learns as much magic has I can teach him.
In the end I almost always have an archmage (maybe with scouting or nobility) and a hero whose class is based on Tactics and has some magic skills. Both have, of course high levels of Combat and Magic Resistence.
So, even if developers had give us the chance to go for very different kind of heroes for might and magic, I tend to blend them in an hybrid form, just like in Heroes 3.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 30, 2014 04:55 PM |
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Still more pronounced.
Keep in mind that the Might advantage is passive and works on the troop damage, which means it has to be compared for 1 round with the difference in casting.
Depending on whether it's II or III the point difference is worth 10/5% and 5/2.5%, respectively ON THE COMPLETE ARMY DAMAGE-
So with 5 points difference in each might stat you will ALWAYS do 50/25% more damage and suffer 25/12.5% less with a might hero, while the only difference in magic is that you have 50 Mana less (which is important only when it's a loooooong battle) and 5 power less (which is not interesting fpr duration when the number is sufficiently high, which keeps being tzhe SAME difference for damage spells, for example 125 points MORE lightning Bolt Damage.
It gets interesting only when your power is so high that you can Armageddon (or even Elemental Storm) basically everything on the board with a very limited amount of castings and having an immunity advantage (e.g., a sufficiently high number of Efreets or Dragons or Golems. In HoMM 2 this is a way more common and realistic option for all 4 more magical heroes.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 30, 2014 05:10 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
"Sameness" is in fact an advantage for MIGHT heroes
Precisely, that is one of the details where I desagree with the people who defend that SoD is (always) better balanced then WoG.
If you have ten secundary skills, two of wich you can choose to fullfill only when the RIGHT skill appears, and you get lucky and find an Alms House early game, some of those treasure chest giving one prim or an Arcane Tower, your hero can became a better "hybrid" then in SoD.
Of course, you can also use Emerald Towers to give two attacks and Attack All Around to your Supremes while computer gets some random improvement like Undead Darkness Dragons or Fast Thunderbirds. Some options endup correcting the balance of the game, while others...
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Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2014 08:23 PM |
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Edited by Sarcyan at 20:27, 30 Mar 2014.
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B0rsuk said:
I'll admit the corruption started with expansion to my favorite game, HOMM2. In Price of Loyalty gold mines are VERY common, practically every major city has one. I suppose they were happy with the result, because that's how much your typical city earns in Heroes 3.
OP: Very good point about hybridization. Past level 10 heroes DO become less distinctive. This is in part by design - primary skill percentages DO change after level 10 for almost all classes. A knight, for example, gets 25% Attack, 25% Defense, 25% Knowledge, 25% Willpower. Same as Necromancer, actually.
Another reason why the sameness kicks in is because you end up getting artifacts and +1 stat map locations all across the board. This also started in Heroes2, which I'm very unhappy about. I think it was one of worst design decisions ever - makes every hero look the same. You proposed to restrict artifacts from certain classes, I have another idea:
Each hero has a Primary Stat and Secondary Stat. In case of the Knight, Defense would be Primary and Offense would be Secondary. Artifacts and locations would be reworked so they boost primary and/or secondary stats instead of hardcoded Attack, Defense etc. Amulet of Awesomeness would give +2Defense and +1Attack to a Knight, but +2 Wisdom and +1 Spell Power to a sorceress.
That sounds very interesting, it would add new mechanics to the game, and could be a really smart idea to implement. I can see the potential on that, by giving heroes and classes a much more focalised approach.
Thing is that JollyJoker, for instance, knows a lot about the numbers in the game. From what I understand reading him is that the game only accepts integers. Excuse me if I am wrong.
What I don't know is if it accepts decimals too, so the +1 defence/attack bonus to Might heroes could be implemented on Magic heroes as a +0.2 or +0.1 bonus to defence or attack.
Also the bonus for knowledge and power would work the other way around, +1 for Magic heroes, +0.2 (or +0.1) for Might heroes.
Your idea is an alternative to that, but specially to classes too.
master_learn said:
Why not give the magic heroes mass blind and mass resurrection instead?
Even one cast at a time is more than enough with sertain artifacts,namely the black orb.
And even if you can cast 20 times per turn ,what can you do against the red orb?
And with expert fire you could berserk all the army a might hero has with 3 casts.
Hmm...but come to think of it,3/4 forcefields per turn is delicious in my eyes!
bloodsucker said:
I agree with Master_Learn that having magic heroes cast two or three times would be a bit like to have my dream spell (Mass Blind).
But I think you also have a point: it doesn't matter if I start with Neela, Gundula or Kyrre. I always end up with mostly the same secondary skills, as a matter of fact it is probable that one hero varys more from on map to another then two heroes vary between themeselves. If I have the chance they all get Earth, Air/Water, Wisdom, Logistics, Offense/Archery, Armourer and Tactics.
Developers tried to solve this problem in Heroes IV and in fact might skills became completly different from magic skills and a hero who is basicly magic can usually do a lot more with magic then an hero who is basicly a might hero.
But this is not considering human options, if you look at my high level heroes the initial difference faints: magic hero is most of the times the best one in Combat, because he tends to upgrade Combat in every Veteran's Guild he visits, while my Might (better called Tactics) hero learns as much magic has I can teach him.
In the end I almost always have an archmage (maybe with scouting or nobility) and a hero whose class is based on Tactics and has some magic skills. Both have, of course high levels of Combat and Magic Resistence.
So, even if developers had give us the chance to go for very different kind of heroes for might and magic, I tend to blend them in an hybrid form, just like in Heroes 3.
Some of the concepts and terms you use still sound all greek to me, because I haven't tried some of those spells you are naming, for now.
I can see your point that even as dreamy as it sounds for both of you, some spells could be overpowered if used in the same turn.
I gotta say though that I thought of that with the idea in mind of spells having a cool off period after each turn.
That's to say, you could cast two or three spells in the same turn but most would need a cool off period -of 1, 2 or 3 turns, it might depend, although that period could be shortened with bonus from artifacts, for instance- once you cast them.
The only exception to this rule would be level 5 spells, which could be casted as long as your Magic hero has enough mana.
Why? Because that's where Magic heroes should shine --at level 5 spells when they learn how to use them. So you could cast Armageddon as much as you could in a single turn. 
Tier 1, more universal spells -say Blind, Bless, etc- could be used by anyone, so the specialisation wouldn't be as much as pronounced.
Having the ability to cast more than one spell in the same turn could be seen as unfair for Might heroes in the initial levels.
But I think it would add more to the typical chess elements you find in Heroes of Might and Magic.
Point is... it wouldn't be unfair at all.
Because no matter how well you can cast Blind, Bless and Haste in the same turn when your Magic hero still has very low defence and attack and it increases both of those stats in very small increments -0.1 or 0.2 defence/attack per level or from external enhancements (or none at all, see B0rsuk idea) like artifacts, schools, etc.
The army of a Might hero could be very challenging for a Magic hero, because of that, regardless of how many spells they can cast in a single turn.
Sure, you can cast Blind, Bless, Haste and Curse in the same turn, but the Might hero could use Bless or Dispel Magic and their... let's say, 7 attack and 7 defence against your puny 1.2 attack and 1.2 defence can be a determining factor. But Magic could be very determining in the outcome too.
The balance is there for every unique kind of hero in the game if well implemented.
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Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2014 10:00 AM |
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You have to realize that HoMM 3 is, at the bottom of it, a completely different game than HoMM 2.
With HoMM 2 the game is much more ... compact. A primary stat point makes A LOT of difference 10% plus attack 5% minus in defense. That, with only 6 levels of creatures, 5 army slots and a max vanilla attack/defense of 15 for the best creatures. Think about THAT. Just take the sucky Pikemen of Knight, Level 3. The upgrade has a meager 20 HPs - however, a massive defense value of 9 and an attack of 5, doing 3-4 damage. A Green Dragon has 200 HPs, does 25-50 damage - but has attack and defense of 12 each. Now imagine your Knight has stats of 6 10 4 4. This will give the sucky Pikemen attack Defense of 11 and 19, respectively. That means, Dragon damage is reduced to a meager 65%, while they Pikemen do 90% damage themselves.
Which means, that the heroes make one hell of a difference FAST.
In HoMM 3 a point is halved in value, while attack and defense difference is doubled between creatures. Which means, if a Dragon fights an Imp, damage decrease/increase PERCENTAGES are the same between those than between Peasants and Dragons in HoMM 2 - but the Heroes are closing the gaps only half as fast, while retaining the same XP ladders (more XP being around in general as well).
You may say, that HoMM 2's SCOPE is somewhat smaller in its range, balance being very fickle and UNCERTAIN. HoMM 3 is less volatile from the get-go, but veers out of control once a certain point is passed, the game TEMPTING players to pass that point because you CAN have so very nice XL maps.
That said, all this is of course a matter of concern only for MP. SP, both games are massive fun, of course.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted March 31, 2014 10:55 AM |
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Sarcyan,my respect for your detailed and well written posts!
There is however the difference between human vs human,where few more casts per turn would get some advantage for the magic player,
and human vs AI,which most of the times is exactly magic vs might hero.The problem-AI is stupid and more magic advantage for a human would be just for fun and not for a chalenge.
Human vs human is where more casts don't mean sure victory.
One dispell/cure or units resisting magic could proove sufficient for a might to win.
One more thing-enchanters/master genies/pit lords/AAs etc. cast their magic in the same turn as well.And in Wog the number of creature castings per battle is significantly higher than in SoD.
Just to mention it-in TDS the Doctor can cast as many spells as he want to cast!
You can try it if you play WoG.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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